Playing off the low or giving back strokes in match play

[ShupeSC]

Re-writing the post because of the confusion:

 

1) Does playing off the low or giving strokes back as a plus handicap offer an advantage in match play. (This allows you to control where higher handicaps receive their two stroke holes)

 

2) The general rule of thumb/strategy for individual match play as I have seen is to give the double strokes back on the holes that have a high range of scores and be more competitive on the low variance holes. (This is debatable)

Could there be a similar rule of thumb for 2v2 best ball because the nature of the game changes the variance on holes greatly?

 

Note: At our club the default is full strokes in match play which consists of 2v2 best ball. Players can request that the 2v2 game be played off the low just for the cart game, but the overall game and skins are full strokes so multiple cards do not have to be kept.  These are unofficial club events run for fun!

Note: I understand that it seems unfair to twist games in your favor, but we have the option so I was curious.

Edited April 7, 2022 by ShupeSC
Fixing confusion

[Colin L]

Sadly,  while immodestly considering myself quite expert in handicapping matters, I can't help you.  Chiefly because I haven't a clue what you're talking about.  Lost in translation somewhere mid-Atlantic. 😁

 

Well, to be honest, I suppose I do have a notion, but I'm used to a stroke index that is worked out for match play rather than  on hole difficulty.

 

By the way, what's a double pop?  I've experienced the embarrassment of farting on my downswing, but never a double pop. 🤔

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Colin L

[naval2006]

I know a bunch of older guys who have an exptertise on giving and taking shots in money games.  At home they mostly work out the long holes for obvious distance reasons.  But they mostly allot shots based on hole handicap when there's a younger single digit player in the foursome.  

[SNIPERBBB]

Unless your course's handicap holes are weirdly allocated...strokes are first given on the hardest holes for the higher caps. If you dont go off the low, your giving strokes on "easier" holes .

 

Stroke allocations are given based on the avg difference of scores between the scratch golfers and the high handicap. Just because a hole is harder, doesnt mean it will necessarily be the one that recieves the first handicap stroke if its equally hard for both the scratch and high handicap golfer.

Edited April 6, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[SNIPERBBB]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

Sadly,  while immodestly considering myself quite expert in handicapping matters, I can't help you.  Chiefly because I haven't a clue what you're talking about.  Lost in translation somewhere mid-Atlantic. 😁

 

Well, to be honest, I suppose I do have a notion, but I'm used to a stroke index that is worked out for match play rather than  on hole difficulty.

 

By the way, what's a double pop?  I've experienced the embarrassment of farting on my downswing, but never a double pop. 🤔

 

double pops are when someone gets two strokes on a hole

Edited April 6, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[ShupeSC]

51 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Unless your course's handicap holes are weirdly allocated...strokes are first given on the hardest holes for the higher caps. If you dont go off the low, your giving strokes on "easier" holes .

 

Stroke allocations are given based on the avg difference of scores between the scratch golfers and the high handicap. Just because a hole is harder, doesnt mean it will necessarily be the one that recieves the first handicap stroke if its equally hard for both the scratch and high handicap golfer.

Our course is pretty straight forward. I give back shots on all the par 3s, two drivable par 4s and an easy par 5.  What makes the strategy weird is the 2v2 aspect. If it is 1v1 I don't play off the low cause there are some easy eagle opportunities and the par 3s are really tough.

[SNIPERBBB]

59 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

Our course is pretty straight forward. I give back shots on all the par 3s, two drivable par 4s and an easy par 5.  What makes the strategy weird is the 2v2 aspect. If it is 1v1 I don't play off the low cause there are some easy eagle opportunities and the par 3s are really tough.

not sure what you mean by giving back shots?

[ShupeSC]

7 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

not sure what you mean by giving back shots?

Par = net bogey 

[SNIPERBBB]

26 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

Par = net bogey 

Thats why you play off the low

Edited April 6, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[SNIPERBBB]

Ok, say your a +5 and the other guy is a -15

 

If you dont play off the low, sure the guy only single pops to his score, but what your doing is effectively giving them the double pops anyways on the #15,#14 handicap holes instead of double pops on the #1 and #2 handicap holes as he takes strokes off his score and you add strokes on yours so the guy just has to be 2 strokes or better to your score to tie or win the hole.  If your just a nice guy and not playing for money, dont play off the low.

Edited April 6, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[ShupeSC]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Ok, say your a +5 and the other guy is a -15

 

If you dont play off the low sure the guy only single pops but what your doing is effectively giving them the double pops anyways on the #16, #15,#14 handicap holes instead of double pops on the #1 and #2 handicap holes

Exactly. Not playing off the low is considered easier at our specific course because the #12-#18 holes are way more volatile (really long par 3s with hazards and tricky drivable par 4s).  Then you are way more competitive on the hard long par 4s all with hazards that make up the #1-#7 handicap holes.
 

Where it gets really complicated is the 2v2 best ball scenario assuming all in the group besides me are a similar handicap. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Easier to who, the high capper or the low? Thats the problem. In the leagues Ive played where I was giving double strokes, Id rather make the high cappers beat me on the hard holes with double pops  than give them stokes on the easier holes for them.

[Jace_bkr]

Are you playing with 20+ cappers? 

 

If so, you won't win very often 🤣

 

hard to make up that many strokes 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Jace_bkr

[ShupeSC]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Easier to who, the high capper or the low? Thats the problem. In the leagues Ive played where I was giving double strokes, Id rather make the high cappers beat me on the hard holes with double pops  than give them stokes on the easier holes for them.

Easier for the low to not play off the low and give back strokes. The hard/low handicap holes at our course are really hard to birdie and are way less volatile than the easier holes. The easy holes have a huge range of scores.  

[ShupeSC]

3 minutes ago, Jace_bkr said:

I'm lost. Playing off the low & each person stroking on appropriate holes is the only way to do it.

 

How would someone double pop? Are you playing with 20+ cappers? 

 

If so, you won't win very often 

lol. Don't get too good at golf or you have to figure this stuff out so you don't lose your shirt in cart games.

[SNIPERBBB]

Assuming no sandbagging, the low cap wijs better than half the time in individual matches. Field events, anything goes

[ShupeSC]

2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Assuming no sandbagging, the low cap wijs better than half the time in individual matches. Field events, anything goes

Lol, we won’t address the sandbagging, but yeah individual matches are pretty straight forward. My issue is 2v2.  I’d rather have more say in the outcome then relying on my partner.  That’s where playing off the low vs giving back shots is interesting.

[SNIPERBBB]

       

 

You know I'm a sportin' man

 

I like to lay the occasional bet

 

 but I ain't that sportin'.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 minute ago, ShupeSC said:

Lol, we won’t address the sandbagging, but yeah individual matches are pretty straight forward. My issue is 2v2.  I’d rather have more say in the outcome then relying on my partner.  That’s where playing off the low vs giving back shots is interesting.

We run into that same thing in our weekly games. It really is the B/C players that make or break your team

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

Easier for the low to not play off the low and give back strokes. The hard/low handicap holes at our course are really hard to birdie and are way less volatile than the easier holes. The easy holes have a huge range of scores.  

 

I don't believe you get to decide which holes are "harder". You use the holes as marked on the card. Of course, with agreement of all players you can do anything you want.

 

The handicap allowance for a 4-ball match play is 90% of COURSE handicap.

 

You first calculate each player's CH. Then take 90%, round it, of it giving a Playing Handicap. You then play off the lowest PH allocating the strokes given on the HARDEST holes; those where the weaker players are most likely to need the strokes.

 

Use the USGA Course Handicap Calculator (2 steps for each player) to make sure you don't round twice.

 

See the very last example in "C/3" below

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

[ShupeSC]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't believe you get to decide which holes are "harder". You use the holes as marked on the card. Of course, with agreement of all players you can do anything you want.

 

The handicap allowance for a 4-ball match play is 90% of COURSE handicap.

 

You first calculate each player's CH. Then take 90%, round it, of it giving a Playing Handicap. You then play off the lowest PH allocating the strokes given on the HARDEST holes; those where the weaker players are most likely to need the strokes.

 

Use the USGA Course Handicap Calculator (2 steps for each player) to make sure you don't round twice.

 

See the very last example in "C/3" below

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

I know the rules. We have the choice to play off the low or give strokes back.

[ShupeSC]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't believe you get to decide which holes are "harder". You use the holes as marked on the card. Of course, with agreement of all players you can do anything you want.

 

The handicap allowance for a 4-ball match play is 90% of COURSE handicap.

 

You first calculate each player's CH. Then take 90%, round it, of it giving a Playing Handicap. You then play off the lowest PH allocating the strokes given on the HARDEST holes; those where the weaker players are most likely to need the strokes.

 

Use the USGA Course Handicap Calculator (2 steps for each player) to make sure you don't round twice.

 

See the very last example in "C/3" below

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

Also, where in the world did you get me deciding which holes are rated which handicap? Lol… 

[Mudguard]

11 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

I know the rules. We have the choice to play off the low or give strokes back.

 

I guess this is kind of the point. You shouldn't have the choice. There's only one answer in matchplay. So you probably need to find whoever is organising it and tell them. Low marker goes to zero, and everyone else gets cut by the difference (EDIT, or added if the low marker is a plus handicap). Then their shots fall where they are allocated on the card. We don't play the 90% rule here either, it's full strokes. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mudguard

[ShupeSC]

Just now, Mudguard said:

 

I guess this is kind of the point. You shouldn't have the choice. There's only one answer in matchplay. So you probably need to find whoever is organising it and tell them. Low marker goes to zero, and everyone else gets cut by the difference. Then their shots fall where they are allocated on the card. We don't play the 90% rule here either, it's full strokes. 

I’ll let you tell the guys that have been running it for 30 years to switch things up lol.

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

I know the rules. We have the choice to play off the low or give strokes back.

 

Then I guess I don't know understand the question.

 

If you can "get away with" giving strokes on easier holes instead of the harder ones, where's the issue ?

 

Of course you would do that.

 

Why your opponents would let you I have no idea.

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

Also, where in the world did you get me deciding which holes are rated which handicap? Lol… 

 

I guess, like Colin, I didn't understand the original proposal.

 

The bolded part confused me.

 

On 4/5/2022 at 8:14 PM, ShupeSC said:

For 2v2 best ball: 
For all the handicap/strategy experts. If you are a deeply plus handicap, is it more advantageous to play off the low and give your partner and competitors bunch of strokes on the hard\medium holes and be competitive on the easy holes or is it better to have a fighting chance on the medium tough holes and rely on the partner to carry on the easy holes? 
 

I know the rules say play off the low, but we have the choice in cart games. I’ve always given strokes back on the easy holes to avoid letting guys double pop.

 

 

[ShupeSC]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Then I guess I don't know understand the question.

 

If you can "get away with" giving strokes on easier holes instead of the harder ones, where's the issue ?

 

Of course you would do that.

 

Why your opponents would let you I have no idea.

If a plus handicap plays off the low, everyone in the group gets more strokes on the mid handicap holes. If a plus just gives back strokes then the handicaps in the group don’t change and the plus has to give strokes on the higher rated holes.  When you play 2v2 best ball the strategy on choosing which scenario is best gets really complicated. Individual match play is easy to figure which is best. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by ShupeSC

[Mudguard]

2 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

I’ll let you tell the guys that have been running it for 30 years to switch things up lol.

Plenty of folks don't know the rules. I guess where it comes to a head is you want to play properly and your opponents don't. 

I mean it does have a genuine impact. 

Pretend it's a singles match. Bob is off a one, Jerry is off a two. Do you think Jerry should the extra shot on the hardest hole, or second hardest hole?

[ShupeSC]

Just now, Mudguard said:

Plenty of folks don't know the rules. I guess where it comes to a head is you want to play properly and your opponents don't. 

I mean it does have a genuine impact. 

Pretend it's a singles match. Bob is off a one, Jerry is off a two. Do you think Jerry should the extra shot on the hardest hole, or second hardest hole?

When you are a deeply plus handicap it matters a lot.  Double pops and hole difficulty of auto losses makes the difference.

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, ShupeSC said:

When you are a deeply plus handicap it matters a lot.  Double pops and hole difficulty of auto losses makes the difference.

 

Well, I guess I'm reading the links I gave you wrong.

 

In the examples there, it doesn't seem to matter whether anyone's a plus or not. Or how many pops anybody gets.

 

According to those links, unless I'm reading them incorrectly, the "other 3" are getting the difference between their PH and the low guy's whether the low guy is plus or not.

 

Other than the PH calculation the other 3 are getting 1 or more shots on the toughest holes according to the card.

 

I see nothing about any "choices" so I guess I'm just not understanding that part of your issue.