Playing off the low or giving back strokes in match play

[ShupeSC]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:01 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Seriously, what's "it's not official" even mean ? You're playing for cash, right ? "No one cares" ? I want to play with those guys (not you though).

 

Perhaps no one cares because no one knows better ?

 

I play weekly in this stupid game where handicaps can be adjusted downwards up to 6 SHOTS for 1 great net round and can only go UP 1 shot IF one shoots a net of +3 or worse.

 

I asked why to the 2 guys who brought the game over to this course when their old course folded and their answer was "We've always done it that way"  Now how can ANYBODY argue with That "logic" ?

 

The only reason I play in that game is that while I am at a terrible disadvantage against a group of mostly high handicappers, I have an advantage at the skins and closest to the pins - so I figure net-net maybe it works out.

 

But I'd take some $ odds that some/many/most of your group, upon learning there's an advantage gained against them (they most likely have no idea since it's "for fun" ), would be at least somewhat triggered.

 

 

 

That's an assumption on your part. And, FWIW, frankly I don't think dave would have made the same choice as you.
 
 

 
Nor are you saying he's right.

 

 

My friend, it seems to me that IF you were just looking for opinions on strategy you would have phrased the entire original post quite a bit differently - even left yourself out of it entirely. <--- THAT is the best way to get totally honest and objective points of view.

 

To me, it seems you are looking for approval and/or confirmation for choosing something you clearly "know" is to your advantage,,,,,,,,, just because you can.
 
@rogolfsaid, it's "distasteful". I think he was being kind. I'm quite sure there are others around, similar to rogolf, that would use some,,,,,,,,,, ummmmm,,,,,,,,, less kindly words.

 

But I've been wrong before.

 

 

 

Agree to disagree.  The guys who run the game have it set up, and I’m not about to lose more than I need to.

Edited April 9, 2022 by ShupeSC

[ShupeSC]

Btw, classic wrx response here guys. Don’t actually answer the question and nit pick the post trying to gain ego points.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

Agree to disagree.  The guys who run the game have it set up, and I’m not about to lose more than I need to.

 

You're either missing the point or simply ignoring it.

 

2 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

Btw, classic wrx response here guys. Don’t actually answer the question and nit pick the post trying to gain ego points.

 

Agree. Yours is a classic response. "Hey, look over there".

 

Not a nitpick at all. Yours is the classic avoidance of the point.

 

This forum is the Rules of Golf and Etiquette.

 

You've already admitted you KNOW the rules require recommend that strokes be given on the hardest holes first.

 

But because your group "mistakenly" decided to offer a choice that gives you an advantage, rather than at least discussing whether or not is should be that way, you want to keep your mouth shut and take an advantage you shouldn't.

 

I believe "fair play" would be covered under "etiquette".

 

And you're asking for help HERE whether or not it actually is an advantage. YOu expected what ? Approval ? 🙃

 

You're not looking for a fair game. You're looking for an advantage. Not that that's unusual nowadays. Quite the contrary actually.

 

You responded to dave that you're lazy ? There's no "malice" ? The fact that you brought it here to ask about whether you actually have the advantage doing it the "wrong" way pretty much proves your malice.

 

[davep043]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

That is of course correct, I was oversimplifying. 

 

I was surprised to see the reference to Scratch and Bogey Values in the appendix.

In England (and maybe CONGU in general) the individual hole values are not normally published, even to the club.

I don't know if the WHS platform has this level of detail stored but I am not aware of any of the 'front-end' Independent Software Vendors (ISVs) that have updated their calculations as they certainly don't have access to the hole rating data.

Do you know if WHS itself has the facility to do the calculation prior to the allocation itself? 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge,  the hole by hole information is maintained at the regional level, in my case the Virginia State Golf Association.  I know the club can request the data as part of the process of re-numbering the holes, I'm not sure exactly how that information would be presented to us.

[ShupeSC]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You're either missing the point or simply ignoring it.

 

 

Agree. Yours is a classic response. "Hey, look over there".

 

Not a nitpick at all. Yours is the classic avoidance of the point.

 

This forum is the Rules of Golf and Etiquette.

 

You've already admitted you KNOW the rules require recommend that strokes be given on the hardest holes first.

 

But because your group "mistakenly" decided to offer a choice that gives you an advantage, rather than at least discussing whether or not is should be that way, you want to keep your mouth shut and take an advantage you shouldn't.

 

I believe "fair play" would be covered under "etiquette".

 

And you're asking for help HERE whether or not it actually is an advantage. YOu expected what ? Approval ? 🙃

 

You're not looking for a fair game. You're looking for an advantage. Not that that's unusual nowadays. Quite the contrary actually.

 

You responded to dave that you're lazy ? There's no "malice" ? The fact that you brought it here to ask about whether you actually have the advantage doing it the "wrong" way pretty much proves your malice.

 

No you are missing the point.  I can’t change the rules.  The default for the game is to not play off the low.  I am asking if it gives an advantage in 2v2 best ball….  You are doing mental jumping jacks trying to say I’m a malicious cheater. You need to sit back and take a look at your self because you are in terrible state of mind. It’s sad.  

[oikos1]

8 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

Btw, classic wrx response here guys. Don’t actually answer the question and nit pick the post trying to gain ego points.

Lol.  Good luck on this one.  Handicap Rules guys just can't let rules violations slide.  The game of golf and all of it's history will suffer terribly (even though there will be changes made to the rules again, and again, and again).

 

Forget the fact that probably 90% or more of all games played at local munis and clubs have "adaptations" that don't follow the rules of handicapping or the strict rules of golf. 

 

Now, if it's a sanctioned USGA event to be played by the rules of golf, well that there is a different story.

[ShupeSC]

Just now, oikos1 said:

Lol.  Good luck on this one.  Handicap Rules guys just can't let rules violations slide.  The game of golf and all of it's history will suffer terribly (even though there will be changes made to the rules again, and again, and again).

 

Forget the fact that probably 90% or more of all games played at local munis and clubs have "adaptations" that don't follow the rules of handicapping or the strict rules of golf. 

 

Now, if it's a sanctioned USGA event to be played by the rules of golf, well that there is a different story.

Learning that really fast. They expect me a Jr member to change the way a group of guys have been doing things for 20 years and if I don’t I’m a cheater… 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, ShupeSC said:

No you are missing the point.  I can’t change the rules.  The default for the game is to not play off the low.  I am asking if it gives an advantage in 2v2 best ball….  You are doing mental jumping jacks trying to say I’m a malicious cheater. You need to sit back and take a look at your self because you are in terrible state of mind. It’s sad.  

 

Firstly, kindly do not put words in my mouth. I never once said, nor suggested, you were a "malicious cheater". Felon's guilt ?

 

Secondly, you completely changed your original post (in an effort to "clarify")

 

So riddle me this. Did you or did you not tell us that the low handicapper in the "cart game" (YOU) has the choice to play by USGA recommendations OR to give strokes in an alternate fashion, as in giving strokes on easier holes ?

 

And did you or did you not ask us if, and how much, it would be advantageous to giving said strokes on the easier holes rather than the harder ones ?

Edited April 10, 2022 by nsxguy

[ShupeSC]

57 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Firstly, kindly do not put words in my mouth. I never once said, nor suggested, you were a "malicious cheater". Felon's guilt ?

 

Secondly, you completely changed your original post (in an effort to "clarify")

 

So riddle me this. Did you or did you not tell us that the low handicapper in the "cart game" (YOU) has the choice to play by USGA recommendations OR to give strokes in an alternate fashion, as in giving strokes on easier holes ?

 

And did you or did you not ask us if, and how much, it would be advantageous to giving said strokes on the easier holes rather than the harder ones ?

LOL. You are trying so hard.  If you have a choice in a game would you purposely choose to put yourself at a disadvantage because you want to follow recommended rules that are not apart of this game.  This is getting comical at this point.

[rogolf]

45 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

LOL. You are trying so hard.  If you have a choice in a game would you purposely choose to put yourself at a disadvantage because you want to follow recommended rules that are not apart of this game.  This is getting comical at this point.

Explain again, what was the purpose of your original post if you already knew the correct procedure from the Rules of handicapping?  And, in this forum, what did you really expect as responses - strategies to use when not following the Rules of handicapping?

Edited April 10, 2022 by rogolf

[ShupeSC]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Explain again, what was the purpose of your original post if you already knew the correct procedure from the Rules of handicapping?  And, in this forum, what did you really expect as responses - strategies to use when not following the Rules of handicapping?

Simply asking which is more advantageous in 2v2 best ball.  I stated the rules of our game. Read the previous posts, the game doesn’t follow recommendations and it hasn’t for 20 years.

Edited April 10, 2022 by ShupeSC

[Colin L]

33 minutes ago, ShupeSC said:

Simply asking which is more advantageous in 2v2 best ball.  I stated the rules of our game. Read the previous posts, the game doesn’t follow recommendations and it hasn’t for 20 years.

I guess you're creating some opposition here because essentially this is the wrong forum to come to ask for strategic advice on how to play a game based on different rules from the established ones.  That's not to say you're not free to play to whatever rules your group chooses, but there comes a point where the game being played isn't the same game as the rules regulate.  It's golf, Jim, but not as we know it  as would have been said  in Star Trek had they beamed down on to a parallel universe Augusta where the greats were moving balls to better lies, taking mulligans and holing out in 20cm diameter holes.  

 

By the way, I'm disappointed that "double pops" disappeared in your re-write.  I rather liked it .... and plan to surprise my friends with it.  😃

[ShupeSC]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

I guess you're creating some opposition here because essentially this is the wrong forum to come to ask for strategic advice on how to play a game based on different rules from the established ones.  That's not to say you're not free to play to whatever rules your group chooses, but there comes a point where the game being played isn't the same game as the rules regulate.  It's golf, Jim, but not as we know it  as would have been said  in Star Trek had they beamed down on to a parallel universe Augusta where the greats were moving balls to better lies, taking mulligans and holing out in 20cm diameter holes.  

 

By the way, I'm disappointed that "double pops" disappeared in your re-write.  I rather liked it .... and plan to surprise my friends with it.  😃

Completely regret putting it in this part of the forum(nowhere else seemed to fit), but here we are. On the other hand it’s provided for some funny takes. 
 

“Double pops” are objectively hilarious. 

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

LOL. You are trying so hard.  If you have a choice in a game would you purposely choose to put yourself at a disadvantage because you want to follow recommended rules that are not apart of this game.  This is getting comical at this point.

 

You've gotten past comical long ago but why would I answer your question(s) when you refuse to answer mine ?

[bekgolf]

10 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

LOL. You are trying so hard.  If you have a choice in a game would you purposely choose to put yourself at a disadvantage because you want to follow recommended rules that are not apart of this game.  This is getting comical at this point.

 

And now for a different point of view:

 

Even the "Steady Eddy" players have bad days and the higher caps have good and bad days.  Impossible to predict, at least in my experience.

 

Appendix C does recommend playing off the low but gives the final decision to the committee which in your case I'm assuming is the part of the group who gives the option to you.

 

Quote from appendix

 

Plus Playing Handicaps:

Unless otherwise specified by the Committee, players with a ‘plus’ Playing Handicap give strokes back to the course, beginning at the hole with stroke index 18. For example, a player with a Playing Handicap of +2 would give strokes back to the course at the holes with stroke index 18 and 17.

Edited April 10, 2022 by bekgolf
unitentional emoji showed up.

[davep043]

8 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

And now for a different point of view:

 

Even the "Steady Eddy" players have bad days and the higher caps have good and bad days.  Impossible to predict, at least in my experience.

 

Appendix C does recommend playing off the low but gives the final decision to the committee which in your case I'm assuming is the part of the group who gives the option to you.

 

Quote from appendix

 

Plus Playing Handicaps:

Unless otherwise specified by the Committee, players with a ‘plus’ Playing Handicap give strokes back to the course, beginning at the hole with stroke index 18. For example, a player with a Playing Handicap of +2 would give strokes back to the course at the holes with stroke index 18 and 17.

I know I mentioned this way back there somewhere, its good to bring in the actual rules again now.  

My other observation was that the system currently being used by @ShupeSC's group, allowing the low handicapper in each group to choose between two different methods of applying strokes, is surely not the result of laziness the organizers in the past.  Laziness would mean allocating strokes in the cart game in the same manner as the strokes are allocated in the larger game.  Allowing the choice means allowing the players to CHOOSE to keep two different scorecards, with strokes allocated differently on each card.  To me, those old-time organizers wanted to be able to select the system they feel gives them an advantage.  And since they decided to let the low-handicapper make the choice, it seems obvious that those old-time organizers were themselves low handicappers.

[mark m]

“Bump” is another slang term for handicap stroke.
Do you get a bump on this hole?

He gets 2 bumps here. Look out.

[ShupeSC]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

I know I mentioned this way back there somewhere, its good to bring in the actual rules again now.  

My other observation was that the system currently being used by @ShupeSC's group, allowing the low handicapper in each group to choose between two different methods of applying strokes, is surely not the result of laziness the organizers in the past.  Laziness would mean allocating strokes in the cart game in the same manner as the strokes are allocated in the larger game.  Allowing the choice means allowing the players to CHOOSE to keep two different scorecards, with strokes allocated differently on each card.  To me, those old-time organizers wanted to be able to select the system they feel gives them an advantage.  And since they decided to let the low-handicapper make the choice, it seems obvious that those old-time organizers were themselves low handicappers.

The fatal flaw in your argument is that the original guys who started the group suck at golf and the low handicapper would be choosing to be at a disadvantage LOL… I don’t get why you are so intent on proving malice where there is none.

[ShupeSC]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You've gotten past comical long ago but why would I answer your question(s) when you refuse to answer mine ?

I’ve never seen someone that is so petty lol.  I feel bad for you.  I really do. 
 

Go to some other post instead of trying to call someone a cheater for 3 pages.

Edited April 10, 2022 by ShupeSC

[ShupeSC]

35 minutes ago, mark m said:

“Bump” is another slang term for handicap stroke.
Do you get a bump on this hole?

He gets 2 bumps here. Look out.

Pop has so much energy to it.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, ShupeSC said:

Pop has so much energy to it.

Very true.  The pop on my backswing was singularly full of energy.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

I’ve never seen someone that is so petty lol.  I feel bad for you.  I really do. 
 

Go to some other post instead of trying to call someone a cheater for 3 pages.

 

Never once called, nor implied, you're a cheater.

 

What next ? "Fake news".

 

But you just can't bring yourself to answer a couple of simple questions, can ya ? 🤦‍♀️

 

Then again, your non-answers give all the answers needed.

 

Cheers. 👍

[SheriffBooth]

Looks like this thread has run its course, or is at least on its way down the tubes.

 

/thread