DECADE this hole for me

[ChaosTheory]

The green line is my expectation with a 3 hybrid.  It will be a 7 iron to the green,

Yellow is a 3 wood, and a 9 iron.

Red is driver.  The bunker can’t be carried.  The trees are fairly small.  Bermuda rough.  Gap wedge to the green.

 

What would you choose?  More importantly, What yields the lowest expected stroke average?

[Patnachts]

31 minutes ago, hulten said:

 

 

 

I guess in general people can read one thing and come out with a million different interpretations. To me the essence of the original post/advice we are discussing is get really good at one yardage that suits ur game. That shot would be different to many players and to a certain extent course. Combined with the fact that he has limited time to train the argument cut out a large varietey of shots is key. Of course if he can bomb it to 20-60 yards and be really good at those, great, but that would require more training as there would be unlimited ammounts of variation to that outcome, to get it really close.

 

You also mention birdies while the advice puts an emphesys on the fact that this strategy is about making pars. And as far as I am concerned most singel digit players should be able to 2 put from almost anywhere on the green 90% of the time. Especially if you hit your well practiced sock shot (whatever yardage that may be).

 

What I liked about the advice was that it was a well motivated strategy combined with a key element to succeed with it. There are of course a million ways to get better and all of them involves improving some part of your game. 

Would also like to add something that to me is obvious but: You of course have to practice short shots, its not like anyone is saying never practice these because you will hit 100% of greens from 100 yards. But in terms of time training vs results i feel this is a solid strategy.

P.S. the DJ reference i still think is valid as you in essence (as i interpret it) are saying the closer to the green the better, and train all shots from 10-100 yards? meaning you dont advocate playing specific yardages, rather proximity to green. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

The green line is my expectation with a 3 hybrid.  It will be a 7 iron to the green,

Yellow is a 3 wood, and a 9 iron.

Red is driver.  The bunker can’t be carried.  The trees are fairly small.  Bermuda rough.  Gap wedge to the green.

 

What would you choose?  More importantly, What yields the lowest expected stroke average?

How bad is the fairway bunker to be in? If it isn't terrible, (flat, not overly fluffy sand, etc.), I am leaning a bit towards the yellow (3 wood).

My first impression here is that:
1.) Hybrid is generally pretty safe.
2.) 3 Wood brings in the bunker, which is ok depending on my point above.

3.) Driver is a bit sketchy. Brings the bunker into play, brings the left trees into play, and brings the right trees into play.

[ChaosTheory]

4 minutes ago, Patnachts said:

 

How bad is the fairway bunker to be in? If it isn't terrible, (flat, not overly fluffy sand, etc.), I am leaning a bit towards the yellow (3 wood).

My first impression here is that:
1.) Hybrid is generally pretty safe.
2.) 3 Wood brings in the bunker, which is ok depending on my point above.

3.) Driver is a bit sketchy. Brings the bunker into play, brings the left trees into play, and brings the right trees into play.

 

I have only played it once and was not in the bunker.  I believe it's pretty average.

 

I made par out of the right trees, but I got lucky in there.  

[Patnachts]

2 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

I have only played it once and was not in the bunker.  I believe it's pretty average.

 

I made par out of the right trees, but I got lucky in there.  

Just looks like a tough hole. I think a lot of it is gonna depend on your shot shape. But from a pure shots-gained analysis, I don't think the driver is going to garner you more strokes on average than it is going to hurt your here. A think the jury is a bit out on the 3W, we would need someone more in tune with the math end of it to nail down if bringing the bunker into play hurts you more than it helps.

[ChaosTheory]

I think it's a good risk reward hole.  What you don't see is that after the bunker the fairway slopes down to the hole. You can roll well beyond the red line, IF you hit the correct slot.  So it tempts guys to go for broke.  But that bunker is just in the right place!

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Snowman9000

[robcha]

I think a lot of where the pin position is will dictate the shot. 

 

IE: if the pin tucked right, I'd go with Hybrid and have a good look at the green with 7 iron. I wouldn't really entertain wood or driver since I want to take the bunker completely out of play. 

 

If the pin was front left, i'd probably give it a send with driver, if it goes into the bunker, you'd still have a 9 iron in (or less?), which is fine (as long as the lip isn't egregiously high) and even if you flare it a little to the right, still have a decent look 

[gibbiesmalls]

I thought one of DECADEs tenets is to be ultra aggressive off the tee, and the course should only pull driver out of your hands if there is (penalty stroke) hazards in play (which I don't see above)?

 

Of course, I'm not a DECADE member and I'm probably way wrong, but figured I'd ask.

 

 

 

 

[Trippels]

If you can still reach the green area from the bunker, and the black line doesn't signify OB, then I can't imagine the DECADE system would recommend anything other than driver here.

[Krt22]

54 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

I thought one of DECADEs tenets is to be ultra aggressive off the tee, and the course should only pull driver out of your hands if there is (penalty stroke) hazards in play (which I don't see above)?

 

Of course, I'm not a DECADE member and I'm probably way wrong, but figured I'd ask.

 

 

 

 

The trees are a potential hazard, as is the OB on the right. You basically need a 70 yard wide window where you won't lose a ball or won't be blocked out on your second shot

 

In this case I would hit 3W because I don't try to draw the driver and with driver the bigger miss is right where OB and getting blocked out by the trees comes into play.

 

 

[Lag_0820]

My general rule of thumb... If its not a par 3 always driver. This is golfwrx after all. lol

[SwingBlues]

10 minutes ago, Lag_0820 said:

My general rule of thumb... If its not a par 3 always driver. This is golfwrx after all. lol

 

 Callaway Super Hybrid to the red, screw the driver. This is GolfWRX after all 🤙

 

Seirously, its all down to confidence & whats your miss. Hit is straight ala Moe, driver all day long. Even backing off a driver is a good option. Like I said, it's all in your confidence & miss

[gibbiesmalls]

47 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

The trees are a potential hazard, as is the OB on the right. You basically need a 70 yard wide window where you won't lose a ball or won't be blocked out on your second shot

 

In this case I would hit 3W because I don't try to draw the driver and with driver the bigger miss is right where OB and getting blocked out by the trees comes into play.

 

 

I'd assumed that his colored arcs were that 60-70 yard window and why I didn't think that the houses in either direction were really in play.

 

With that said, I'd be teeing up driver on the right side of the teebox and aiming my 60yard shotgun pattern more left.

 

 

[amace04]

Not DECADE per say, but my logic below:

 

1. Why are you scared of the bunker?  As long as it's not built to be really tough (huge lip, big elevation changes, etc), fairway bunkers are generally fairly easy to hit out of, and sometimes a better option than being in the rough.  Just dig in your front foot and hit it clean.

 

2. Where is the actual danger?  The trees.  The trees left would be pretty bad, as they can obscure your swing or line to the green.  You're probably punching out and then hitting 3 from the fairway.  Trees on the left are a potential unplayable/lost ball if you end up in them.  Even if you're short,  you may have to punch around the trees to have a look at the green.  To me, that leaves the driver in the bag.

So I'm thinking:  3 wood is my play.  I'd far rather be a 9i from a good bunker lie than 7i from the rough (no guarantee hitting a shorter club keeps you in the fairway).  Driver stays in the bag. 

 

3w is fairly safe with a good opportunity for an aggressive play leaving you a great second shot.  Even if you're far right,  you may be able to carry the trees depending on how tall they are.

 

Green is too safe.  You're still a 7i away at least, and I'd feel more confident getting my 9i closer from a good bunker lie than my 7i

[aenemated]

48 minutes ago, Lag_0820 said:

My general rule of thumb... If its not a par 3 always driver. This is golfwrx after all. lol

 

On GolfWRX; there are no par 4s - just long par 3s. 

[ChaosTheory]

24 minutes ago, gibbiesmalls said:

I'd assumed that his colored arcs were that 60-70 yard window and why I didn't think that the houses in either direction were really in play.

 

With that said, I'd be teeing up driver on the right side of the teebox and aiming my 60yard shotgun pattern more left.

 

 

 

The red arc is about 70 yds.  You'd have to hit a very offline shot to bring either OB into play.  The trees are in play obviously.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Snowman9000

[ChaosTheory]

9 minutes ago, amace04 said:

Not DECADE per say, but my logic below:

 

1. Why are you scared of the bunker?  As long as it's not built to be really tough (huge lip, big elevation changes, etc), fairway bunkers are generally fairly easy to hit out of, and sometimes a better option than being in the rough.  Just dig in your front foot and hit it clean.

 

2. Where is the actual danger?  The trees.  The trees left would be pretty bad, as they can obscure your swing or line to the green.  You're probably punching out and then hitting 3 from the fairway.  Trees on the left are a potential unplayable/lost ball if you end up in them.  Even if you're short,  you may have to punch around the trees to have a look at the green.  To me, that leaves the driver in the bag.

So I'm thinking:  3 wood is my play.  I'd far rather be a 9i from a good bunker lie than 7i from the rough (no guarantee hitting a shorter club keeps you in the fairway).  Driver stays in the bag. 

 

3w is fairly safe with a good opportunity for an aggressive play leaving you a great second shot.  Even if you're far right,  you may be able to carry the trees depending on how tall they are.

 

Green is too safe.  You're still a 7i away at least, and I'd feel more confident getting my 9i closer from a good bunker lie than my 7i

 

That seems like a good analysis.  Plus the chances of missing the bunker with the 3w are fairly good.

[amace04]

1 minute ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

That seems like a good analysis.  Plus the chances of missing the bunker with the 3w are fairly good.

Exactly.  best case scenario, you're left with a great second shot.  Bad outcome:  You're in the rough or the bunker.

The odds of being in a spot where you can't advance the ball is pretty low

 

[ChaosTheory]

BTW here is some data on recreational players collected by Shot Scope:

Hitting 3W instead of Driver, both in the fairway, costs 0.3 strokes.  (They observe 28 yds difference.)

Fairway bunker costs 1.4 strokes

Trees cost 1.1 strokes.

Light rough 0.3 strokes.

 

Seems like I could put some math together on this hole.  I'd need to know the strokes expected with 7, 9, and GW from at least the rough and fairway.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Snowman9000

[amace04]

22 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

BTW here is some data on recreational players collected by Shot Scope:

Hitting 3W instead of Driver, both in the fairway, costs 0.3 strokes.  (They observe 28 yds difference.)

Fairway bunker costs 1.4 strokes

Trees cost 1.1 strokes.

Light rough 0.3 strokes.

 

Seems like I could put some math together on this hole.  I'd need to know the strokes expected with 7, 9, and GW from at least the rough and fairway.

it's interesting that a fairway bunker costs that many strokes.

[ChaosTheory]

2 minutes ago, amace04 said:

it's interesting that a fairway bunker costs that many strokes.

 

I know! 

But some guys don't even get out on the first try, so there is that.

[getitdaily]

My strategy changes based on how I'm swinging that day. If I'm striking it well then I'm taking driver and my aim is along the tree line left of the bunker (I'm a fader). Driver should carry close to where the bunker ends. So even if I fade it into the bunker, there's a good chance it's coming out of that bunker after it lands. 

 

If I have even the slightest case of pulls then I'm hitting a hard fade 3w at that bunker...peel it off the bunker and leave it in the fwy. 

[amace04]

2 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

I know! 

But some guys don't even get out on the first try, so there is that.

yeah, I guess the downside of publicly sourced data.

 

Lots of players don't know how to hit out of fairway bunkers and just treat them like greenside bunkers

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

The red arc is about 70 yds.  You'd have to hit a very offline shot to bring either OB into play.  The trees are in play obviously.

So the narrow part of that fairway after the bunker is still ~35yards wide? So you have 40+ yards to the right of the bunker and the fat part of the fairway in front of the bunker is 60y wide? If its that wide open of a hole its big dog 

[ac6]

3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

So the narrow part of that fairway after the bunker is still ~35yards wide? So you have 40+ yards to the right of the bunker and the fat part of the fairway in front of the bunker is 60y wide? If its that wide open of a hole its big dog 

 

Looking closer the fairway throat there is something like 23-25 yards, and the fat part is 33 yards which I think changes things:  

[OnTheBag]

I guess the real question is.........How good are you with your 7i?  If you are fully confident with accuracy and yardage, then it's a no brainer.  If not, then you need to get inside a yardage that you're comfortable with.

[ChaosTheory]

24 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

So the narrow part of that fairway after the bunker is still ~35yards wide? So you have 40+ yards to the right of the bunker and the fat part of the fairway in front of the bunker is 60y wide? If its that wide open of a hole its big dog 

 

Fat part before bunker, yes 60 yds

Right of the bunker 30 yds

Beyond bunker 28 yds at widest.

[ChaosTheory]

13 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

I guess the real question is.........How good are you with your 7i?  If you are fully confident with accuracy and yardage, then it's a no brainer.  If not, then you need to get inside a yardage that you're comfortable with.

 

Best guess, the 7 iron costs me a half stroke, minimum.  Assuming fairway, apples to apples. 

 

The 7 iron shot will be from the fairway.  The others might be from fairway, sand, rough, or trees.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Snowman9000

[OnTheBag]

8 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

 

Best guess, the 7 iron costs me a half stroke, minimum.  Assuming fairway, apples to apples. 

 

The 7 iron shot will be from the fairway.  The others might be from fairway, sand, rough, or trees.

Personally, I play safe and hit the 7i from the fairway.  Now, I'm not a DECADE believer, but even as I rapidly approach 70 years old, I can still get around the course in fewer strokes than most.  My whole strategy is to stay in the short grass and play for position. 

[Krt22]

14 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

Personally, I play safe and hit the 7i from the fairway.  Now, I'm not a DECADE believer, but even as I rapidly approach 70 years old, I can still get around the course in fewer strokes than most.  My whole strategy is to stay in the short grass and play for position. 

This thread is not for you then

[Trippels]

Would be much easier to answer this if there was info on how dense the tree growth is, especially on the left. If it's quite open then even if you're amongst the trees you'll still be able to advance it to the green area, which should mean a lower scoring average over time with the longest available tee shot.