Please help me to swing less in to out.

[YouDaHamHider]

Hi all, 

 

I've recently been on a GC Quad and my path with all clubs is a ridiculous 10-13 degrees right and as a result my attack angle is up with even an 8 iron. This makes long irons a nightmare and playing out of rough almost impossible. I'm having lessons to address and hopefully fix the issue but thought I'd post here as well because previous calls for help on this forum have always given me ideas to work with and helped me to improve. If you have any setup or swing advice/feels/ideas that might help my downswing onto a more neutral path I'd much appreciate it. Thanks for looking. 

[Valtiel]

You have a combination of a laid off position at the top, a fairly shut clubface, and an intentional deepening move with your hands in transition (dropping them behind you) which all add up to your very inside path. You also seem to be fairly intentionally trying to keep your wrists super quiet in transition and through to impact. These are all a bit of an awkward matchup as they don't really compliment each other, especially since you don't have the kind of snappier, faster hip action that tends to pair with this type of approach. There are a lot of elements from the whole "turn and burn" sort of approach here but without that requisite hip speed I mentioned. Removing that loop where your hands drop beneath the path in transition would be the first tweak to look at. Also get rid of this:



You've got that 20hc right hand grip going on where your thumb and forefinger are disconnected and this encourages getting your right hand too far behind/underneath the grip. Biomechanically it is also a weaker connection since our thumb and forefinger are 10x stronger when opposing each other and not separated. 

[YouDaHamHider]

9 hours ago, Valtiel said:

You have a combination of a laid off position at the top, a fairly shut clubface, and an intentional deepening move with your hands in transition (dropping them behind you) which all add up to your very inside path. You also seem to be fairly intentionally trying to keep your wrists super quiet in transition and through to impact. These are all a bit of an awkward matchup as they don't really compliment each other, especially since you don't have the kind of snappier, faster hip action that tends to pair with this type of approach. There are a lot of elements from the whole "turn and burn" sort of approach here but without that requisite hip speed I mentioned. Removing that loop where your hands drop beneath the path in transition would be the first tweak to look at. Also get rid of this:



You've got that 20hc right hand grip going on where your thumb and forefinger are disconnected and this encourages getting your right hand too far behind/underneath the grip. Biomechanically it is also a weaker connection since our thumb and forefinger are 10x stronger when opposing each other and not separated. 

Hi @Valtiel, thanks very much for your feedback, it's most appreciated. I've struggled with getting a good grip with my right thumb for sometime. I wonder if it's an issue with having tiny hands. With regards to fixing the loop is there any swing thought or idea that you think might work? Believe it or not the swing I posted is me trying to be over the top. I don't know where the loop came from but it's something I now find very hard to get rid of. Back to the right thumb grip, I went to a Sim room earlier and had a play around with the right hand position and much to my surprise I picked up 12 yards with a 7 iron using a 10 finger grip! Not sure about how consistent that swing would be on the course though?

[homerrunjesus]

I would try feeling like your arms start working more in front of you from the top. At the top on the DTL video, the first move that your hands do is go further behind you then loop around from the inside. From our POV, it is making counter clockwise move. 

[Tpfol]

A face on view is likely going to show where to start. I dont think the angle of attack is the problem, it appears your left side is collapsing at impact, not as a result of the in to out, but more of the culprit. 

[Mizunoid]

Did you notice you look at the club head on the way back before then looking back at the ball?

[YouDaHamHider]

4 hours ago, Mizunoid said:

Did you notice you look at the club head on the way back before then looking back at the ball?

It's a horrible habit that I'm constantly fighting against. Thanks for pointing it out.

[YouDaHamHider]

11 hours ago, Tpfol said:

A face on view is likely going to show where to start. I dont think the angle of attack is the problem, it appears your left side is collapsing at impact, not as a result of the in to out, but more of the culprit. 

I think a face on would be helpful but my range dividers makes face on video a bit tricky. I've read in quite a few places that too much slide in the downswing can also cause the club to come too far from the inside so I've been consciously trying to snap the lead side back rather than slide forward. It's hard to tell from the DTL video but I did shoot a personal best 2 over par this weekend so it might be helping. This is a DTL video of me trying to have less forward slide in downsing.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 8/1/2022 at 4:39 PM, YouDaHamHider said:

Hi all, 

 

I've recently been on a GC Quad and my path with all clubs is a ridiculous 10-13 degrees right and as a result my attack angle is up with even an 8 iron. This makes long irons a nightmare and playing out of rough almost impossible. I'm having lessons to address and hopefully fix the issue but thought I'd post here as well because previous calls for help on this forum have always given me ideas to work with and helped me to improve. If you have any setup or swing advice/feels/ideas that might help my downswing onto a more neutral path I'd much appreciate it. Thanks for looking. 

So what is happening is that you are swing direction not path is 10 to 13 degrees right but you are striking the ball on the out to in part of your swing arc with everything above an 8 iron creating a positive AoA.  You are out of position in relation to the ball and are striking it after low point of your swing arc which is a no go with any club being hit off the ground.  You have to correct this first and foremost and it can be done by simply rotating your entire body more to the left of the target line.  You need to move the ball back to the location along your swing arc so that it will be struck on the in to out portion of your swing arc so that it can be struck before the low point of your swing arc (negative AoA).  How do you accomplish that?

 

From an overhead view for visual reference this is what the shot you are describing looks like. Note that the middle of pencil if placed at the low point of the swing arc would be pointing 10 to 13 degrees (not really but pretend it is) right of the target line and will denote your swing direction, but you are contacting the ball after the low point of the swing arc which is represented by the pencil mark on the trashcan lid creating a positive AoA. This is a no go for a ball being hit off the ground which is why you are struggling getting out of the rough at a certain loft. Also note that the plane / shoulder line of the swing circle is also oriented right of the target line and you can't possibly lever a ball along the target line because it would have to be hit at an inefficient part of the swing arc because a ball being hit off the ground must be struck prior to the low point of the swing arc in order to be hit with leverage along the target line and for the sake of this example you are trying to hit a straight ball and not play shot shape. This setup would be perfect for a fairway wood being hit off a shallow tee but not for an iron being hit off the ground because if the ball was teed up low it would be struck just after low point of the swing arc and would align to the target line:

 

 

The diagram below is the shot that you are trying to achieve and this is why you will need to rotate your shoulder line / swing plane left more. As you rotate to the left with your swing plane/ shoulder line you will be moving your low point from being behind where the ball is struck to behind it like it should be in the diagram below (negative AoA).  In the diagram below you will be striking ball prior to the low point of the swing arc denoted by the pencil mark on the trash can lid as the club face is aligning to the target line (pencil in the actual position in the diagram) and this will zero out your face to path relationship and you will no longer have a swing direction of 10 to 13 degrees to the right of the target line and if the middle of the pencil was placed at low point of the swing arc the swing direction will now be left some amount of the target line and you will be also able to hit the ball with maximum leverage.  Yes you do swing on a flatter swing plane but this is your swing motion and you just have to make it match with where along your swing arc the ball needs to be and you can still extract the ball from the rough no problem. 

If I was unclear on anything just mention it and I will clarify as the explanation is sort of technical but since you included launch monitor numbers I wanted to clarify because 10 to 13 to the right is not how path is measured but it is how swing direction is measured.  

Edited August 9, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[YouDaHamHider]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

So what is happening is that you are swing direction not path is 10 to 13 degrees right but you are striking the ball on the out to in part of your swing arc with everything above an 8 iron creating a positive AoA.  You are out of position in relation to the ball and are striking it after low point of your swing arc which is a no go with any club being hit off the ground.  You have to correct this first and foremost and it can be done by simply rotating your entire body more to the left of the target line.  You need to move the ball back to the location along your swing arc so that it will be struck on the in to out portion of your swing arc so that it can be struck before the low point of your swing arc (negative AoA).  How do you accomplish that?

 

From an overhead view for visual reference this is what the shot you are describing looks like. Note that the middle of pencil if placed at the low point of the swing arc would be pointing 10 to 13 degrees (not really but pretend it is) right of the target line and will denote your swing direction, but you are contacting the ball after the low point of the swing arc which is represented by the pencil mark on the trashcan lid creating a positive AoA. This is a no go for a ball being hit off the ground which is why you are struggling getting out of the rough at a certain loft. Also note that the plane / shoulder line of the swing circle is also oriented right of the target line and you can't possibly lever a ball along the target line because it would have to be hit at an inefficient part of the swing arc because a ball being hit off the ground must be struck prior to the low point of the swing arc in order to be hit with leverage along the target line and for the sake of this example you are trying to hit a straight ball and not play shot shape. This setup would be perfect for a fairway wood being hit off a shallow tee but not for an iron being hit off the ground because if the ball was teed up low it would be struck just after low point of the swing arc and would align to the target line:

 

 

The diagram below is the shot that you are trying to achieve and this is why you will need to rotate your shoulder line / swing plane left more. As you rotate to the left with your swing plane/ shoulder line you will be moving your low point from being behind where the ball is struck to behind it like it should be in the diagram below (negative AoA).  In the diagram below you will be striking ball prior to the low point of the swing arc denoted by the pencil mark on the trash can lid as the club face is aligning to the target line (pencil in the actual position in the diagram) and this will zero out your face to path relationship and you will no longer have a swing direction of 10 to 13 degrees to the right of the target line and if the middle of the pencil was placed at low point of the swing arc the swing direction will now be left some amount of the target line and you will be also able to hit the ball with maximum leverage.  Yes you do swing on a flatter swing plane but this is your swing motion and you just have to make it match with where along your swing arc the ball needs to be and you can still extract the ball from the rough no problem. 

If I was unclear on anything just mention it and I will clarify as the explanation is sort of technical but since you included launch monitor numbers I wanted to clarify because 10 to 13 to the right is not how path is measured but it is how swing direction is measured.  

Hi @Righty to Lefty thanks very much for your detailed explanation. I'm a little confused as both the instructors I've been using the launch monitor with have been referring to my 13 degree right 'path' not swing direction. Either way, your pencil prop makes sense but do you mean for me to rotate my shoulder line left during the swing or at address please and for clarification are you suggesting I also put the ball further back in stance? Thanks for your help.

[Tpfol]

9 hours ago, YouDaHamHider said:

I think a face on would be helpful but my range dividers makes face on video a bit tricky.

I hear you on that, I'm just making a suggestion of course. While one can learn a lot from a down the line view, it surely doesnt tell the whole story.

I guess the one thing that's clear though, is that you definitely dont want to alter that club head path, the shallow downswing is one of the best parts of your swing. 

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, YouDaHamHider said:

Hi @Righty to Lefty thanks very much for your detailed explanation. I'm a little confused as both the instructors I've been using the launch monitor with have been referring to my 13 degree right 'path' not swing direction. Either way, your pencil prop makes sense but do you mean for me to rotate my shoulder line left during the swing or at address please and for clarification are you suggesting I also put the ball further back in stance? Thanks for your help.

I am pretty sure that I have figured it out but you made me have to really dig for the info because you threw me off when you said that you were hitting getting a positive AoA when you go above 8 iron. If your path is 10 to 13 right then you would have to play a draw to lever a ball being struck with the proper negative AoA being hit off the ground that would finish on the target line.  I saw the shot that you hit in the simulator and froze your impact and that shot was stuck well but it appeared to be a levered straight push 10 to 13 degrees right of the target line thus that is where that path measurement came from, but the shot appeared to have a pretty neutral ball flight so your face to path would be somewhere near zero.  Any ball being hit off the ground should look like a push on video because it is being struck on the in to out portion of the swing arc as the club is moving towards low point.  I don't even need the numbers to tell that you hit this ball with a negative AoA because this is the freeze frame and note where the ball hit in relation to the target line: 

 

 

 

This is the diagram representation of the that shot where the pencil represents a shot that is being struck prior to low point with a negative AoA and a zeroed out face to path representing a straight push that you appeared to hit. 

 

This was your setup for that shot in which you were in good position to lever the ball it just missed the target line to the right and most of your other shot tracers look to be pretty neutral ball flight so your face to path discipline is good. 

 

So yes the fix is to rotate your entire setup to the left to bring that levered push onto the target line which will zero out your path like so: 

Note that the position of the pencil didn't move so the shot is still being struck in the exact same way, the adjustment is being made by moving the plane of your swing left more to bring the shot onto the target line.  Nothing will change with your swing motion and you will just need to recalibrate how you have to aim to ensure that you hit your are hitting your intended target line.  This is the process for every club being hit off the ground and the only outliers are clubs that are being hit off a tee that you intend to hit with a positive AoA because they will be struck after the low point of the swing arc. So after taking a deeper dive into your situation you are not excessively in to out because your ball flight looks to be pretty neutral, you were simply aimed wrong and so long as you have a negative AoA you will be able to extract shots from the rough just fine as Sergio Garcia has that exact same shallowing move in his swing that you do and he gets out of the rough fine. If I was unclear on anything please reach out and I will clarify further.  R to L. 

 

 

For reference this is the video that I used the freeze frames from and you can see how he rotates the entire setup to bring the shot onto the target line and this is exactly how you will need to do it: 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[YouDaHamHider]

Hi all, I just wanted to update you with my swing progress as I hope it will help anybody else who has been struggling with a swing that is too much in to out. Along with the advice that I received on my original post I've found that practising with a smart ball has really helped me neutralise my swing path. I've been hitting a few hundred balls a week with the smart hall between my arms (vid 1) and although I've yet to confirm my path and attack angle numbers on a GCQuad, I've been hitting little fades on the course and taking divots for the first time in my life. Video 2 is how I'm currently swinging it and I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on whether it's an improvement on on my original post swing or whether I've introduced some other flaw or incorrect matchup. Thanks for looking.