OG Graf Blue X graphics? BULGE??

[rbpwrx]

Hey all, snagged a crazy 'Bay deal - Titey 905S 8.5* w/ original Graffaloy Blue X, (tour issue I think - serial) for $19. Love that place. Have been searching for both components for years - super lucky to find them in one club. Excellent shape, too.

 

AND. It lives up to the hype. Stout and heavy, but fair. Great results when I make a good swing. Not too penal when I don't. I can play it high and low, left and right, which is what I'm always looking for.

 

Questions:

- Anyone know the raw weight on this shaft? Haven't been able to find it online (ProLaunch always comes up - this is not that).

- Tip to graphics dimension? This thing feels like it might've been tipped. Which is great, just curious.

- ALSO: when I sight down the shaft, it looks fat through the middle. Almost like a Burner Bubble from back in the day. Anyone know if this was a design feature? Seems like an easy way to make a firmer shaft.

Thanks for any info. (And I'm loving the head. Great update on my beloved 983E. Think I've found my sweetspot. Right around 390cc. Deep face. Not embarassingly huge. Big enough to take a big swing. Anyone else in that zone? Other heads of similar size?) Thx!
 

Edited November 27, 2022 by rbpwrx

[Howard_Jones]

905 came in 2006, so BLUE 2007 should be the same, i cant recall tip to graphics

[AdamMH]

Just went down to the garage to see if I could figure out the tip-to-graphic length as I have two blues, only to find out that I'm not sure if either of mine have been tipped or not!

That said, that "tipped" feeling that you're getting might just be because the club is a bore-thru, effectively stiffening the shaft by constraining more of the tip section.

[ChristopherMcDonald]

Love that shaft. Can’t imagine it in X. I played it in a R flex and it was a lot of shaft lol

[AdamMH]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Love that shaft. Can’t imagine it in X. I played it in a R flex and it was a lot of shaft lol

A TT rep previously said they play a whole flex up... see here:

One of the Blue's I have is a regular flex (appears to be tipped 1") that was in a Golfsmith head. Had absolutely no issues with it keeping up even when I was throttling to over 120. It's a little bit ridiculous if I'm being honest!

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

905 came in 2006, so BLUE 2007 should be the same, i cant recall tip to graphics

 

Thank you, Howard! How could it be 63g for all flexes? Any thoughts? Unless the stiffer flexes are just tipped versions of the same shaft??

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, AdamMH said:

Just went down to the garage to see if I could figure out the tip-to-graphic length as I have two blues, only to find out that I'm not sure if either of mine have been tipped or not!

That said, that "tipped" feeling that you're getting might just be because the club is a bore-thru, effectively stiffening the shaft by constraining more of the tip section.

 

Absolutely. Good point. I should have known, since my previous gamer was a bore-through 983E that plays 'tipped.'

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Love that shaft. Can’t imagine it in X. I played it in a R flex and it was a lot of shaft lol

 

It loads nicely, even in X. Doesn't feel crazy, just nice and stable.

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, AdamMH said:

Just went down to the garage to see if I could figure out the tip-to-graphic length as I have two blues, only to find out that I'm not sure if either of mine have been tipped or not!

 

Are the tip-to-graphics the same for both shafts?

[AdamMH]

14 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

 

Are the tip-to-graphics the same for both shafts?

 

I don't know where the tip is on one - it's in a driver!

 

Here's the scenario:

Reg flex (loose) - a hair under 23.75" tip to edge of white oval.

Stiff flex is in an SMT Spectrum, with bore depth or about 2.125". If it's fully inserted, tip to same spot will be 24.5". It's not uncommon for one of these heads to be partially inserted though...  Hence, I can't tell without pulling the shaft.

 

What does yours measure? Maybe we can figure it out with one extra data point...

[Howard_Jones]

8 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

 

Thank you, Howard! How could it be 63g for all flexes? Any thoughts? Unless the stiffer flexes are just tipped versions of the same shaft??

Dont think steel shafts with the same step pattern

In grapgite shafts, its the carbon fiber frame that delivers flex, while weight comes from resin/epoxy so its no direct connection between shaft wgt and flex in graphite shafts                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

[Howard_Jones]

9 hours ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Love that shaft. Can’t imagine it in X. I played it in a R flex and it was a lot of shaft lol

You might understand why when you read what TT said about them in 2013

[rbpwrx]

18 hours ago, AdamMH said:

 

I don't know where the tip is on one - it's in a driver!

 

Here's the scenario:

Reg flex (loose) - a hair under 23.75" tip to edge of white oval.

Stiff flex is in an SMT Spectrum, with bore depth or about 2.125". If it's fully inserted, tip to same spot will be 24.5". It's not uncommon for one of these heads to be partially inserted though...  Hence, I can't tell without pulling the shaft.

 

What does yours measure? Maybe we can figure it out with one extra data point...

I will check as soon as I can find my tape measure!

[rbpwrx]

10 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Dont think steel shafts with the same step pattern

In grapgite shafts, its the carbon fiber frame that delivers flex, while weight comes from resin/epoxy so its no direct connection between shaft wgt and flex in graphite shafts                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

I understand that a 60 g shaft can be stiffer than an 80 g shaft from a different era or manufacturer.

 

But have you ever seen a regular shaft that weighed exactly the same as an extra stiff, in the SAME line, same model, same manufacturer? I certainly never have.

 

And that's because, while most of the weight may come from the resins, most of the stiffness comes from the fibers. And manufacturers increase stiffness by increasing fiber count. Which inevitably means a little more resin. Hence, a little more weight. At least a few grams.

 

All I know is, this OG blue X certainly doesn't feel like 63g in my hands. Thoughts?

[Howard_Jones]

9 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

I understand that a 60 g shaft can be stiffer than an 80 g shaft from a different era or manufacturer.

 

But have you ever seen a regular shaft that weighed exactly the same as an extra stiff, in the SAME line, same model, same manufacturer? I certainly never have.

 

And that's because, while most of the weight may come from the resins, most of the stiffness comes from the fibers. And manufacturers increase stiffness by increasing fiber count. Which inevitably means a little more resin. Hence, a little more weight. At least a few grams.

 

All I know is, this OG blue X certainly doesn't feel like 63g in my hands. Thoughts?

You forget that they might change "everything", meaning tensile strength, tread OD, what ever, but that DONT mean weight will change, since the carbon fibers themself count count much on the gram scale.

The job resin have is #3
- Keep it all together or as a glue
- Protect the carbon fibers from outside agents 
- Deliver the wanted shaft wgt

As example, the Project X Tour Issue models (about 11 years old now), had some options where the carbonfiber frame was the same, but the amount of resin the only difference. Those shafts where all made to become the most heavy option, and then "grinded" down on a roller table to become "lighter options" for the same flex.

PS! my own gamer shaft (still), is Grafalloy ProLaunch RED AXIS, who is a EVO model of the OG Blue as EI profile, but with 15 different flags and layers of carbonfibers...weight is 60 grams, and my shaft has for sure more layers of carbonfibers than the OG BLUE had, so the number of layers dont make much of a difference here either.

[TrueTemper]

The way we change stiffness without changing weight is by increasing fiber modulus, not count.  We get several fibers all in the same prepreg configuration.  For example we have 24, 30, 40 and 46 ton fibers all in a 90FAW/28% resin configuration.  We can swap the different materials around to modify stiffness without any change in weight since all the materials have the same fiber mass and resin percentage.

 

And yes the Grafalloy Blue (my first shaft I designed) does have much wider geometry in the middle than most standard shafts.

 

DB

[ChristopherMcDonald]

24 minutes ago, TrueTemper said:

The way we change stiffness without changing weight is by increasing fiber modulus, not count.  We get several fibers all in the same prepreg configuration.  For example we have 24, 30, 40 and 46 ton fibers all in a 90FAW/28% resin configuration.  We can swap the different materials around to modify stiffness without any change in weight since all the materials have the same fiber mass and resin percentage.

 

And yes the Grafalloy Blue (my first shaft I designed) does have much wider geometry in the middle than most standard shafts.

 

DB

Hell of a shaft you designed there sir. Cult status around these parts 

[mister2cool]

I still have a R7 Superquad and R7st 13*, both tour issued with OG Blue shafts. Interestingly both are marked Tour Stiff. I guess they didn't do TX back then? 

[rbpwrx]

17 hours ago, TrueTemper said:

The way we change stiffness without changing weight is by increasing fiber modulus, not count.  We get several fibers all in the same prepreg configuration.  For example we have 24, 30, 40 and 46 ton fibers all in a 90FAW/28% resin configuration.  We can swap the different materials around to modify stiffness without any change in weight since all the materials have the same fiber mass and resin percentage.

 

And yes the Grafalloy Blue (my first shaft I designed) does have much wider geometry in the middle than most standard shafts.

 

DB

well done. Love this thing. Holy grail.

[rbpwrx]

17 hours ago, TrueTemper said:

The way we change stiffness without changing weight is by increasing fiber modulus, not count.  We get several fibers all in the same prepreg configuration.  For example we have 24, 30, 40 and 46 ton fibers all in a 90FAW/28% resin configuration.  We can swap the different materials around to modify stiffness without any change in weight since all the materials have the same fiber mass and resin percentage.

 

And yes the Grafalloy Blue (my first shaft I designed) does have much wider geometry in the middle than most standard shafts.

 

DB

And thank you. That explains it perfectly.

Question: what is the difference between a 24 and 46 ton fiber, physically? How is it manufactured differently to achive almost twice the stiffness? Or is it just sorting? Does more stiffness mean more brittleness/ prone to breakage?

Thx again!

[Howard_Jones]

19 hours ago, TrueTemper said:

The way we change stiffness without changing weight is by increasing fiber modulus, not count.  We get several fibers all in the same prepreg configuration.  For example we have 24, 30, 40 and 46 ton fibers all in a 90FAW/28% resin configuration.  We can swap the different materials around to modify stiffness without any change in weight since all the materials have the same fiber mass and resin percentage.

 

And yes the Grafalloy Blue (my first shaft I designed) does have much wider geometry in the middle than most standard shafts.

 

DB

WOW, i had no clue that you was the "sinner", and man behind one of the best graphite shaft designes ever made, and now that i know that, i expect it to be you that is behind the BLUE (White) model too? if so please tell us the story behind the differences to measured specs, was that to offset head/hosel design from trough bore to standard bore? I never saw a official statement about it.

[TrueTemper]

On 11/29/2022 at 4:49 AM, rbpwrx said:

And thank you. That explains it perfectly.

Question: what is the difference between a 24 and 46 ton fiber, physically? How is it manufactured differently to achive almost twice the stiffness? Or is it just sorting? Does more stiffness mean more brittleness/ prone to breakage?

Thx again!

24 and 46 are measures of stiffness, which affect flex or torque depending on the angles at which the fibers are placed.   The 24 and 46 ton often start with the same precursor and the heat treat process is what makes them have different final properties.  In general as fibers get stiffer they get weaker, as in are easier to break and/or more brittle.  For example 90ton (125msi) are like glass and have much lower strength than 24 ton.  There are exceptions to the rule like T800 and T1100 type fibers which are stiffer (30-35ish tons) but have higer strength than most other fibers.

[TrueTemper]

On 11/29/2022 at 6:25 AM, Howard_Jones said:

WOW, i had no clue that you was the "sinner", and man behind one of the best graphite shaft designes ever made, and now that i know that, i expect it to be you that is behind the BLUE (White) model too? if so please tell us the story behind the differences to measured specs, was that to offset head/hosel design from trough bore to standard bore? I never saw a official statement about it.

The Blue Speed Coat (white version) was intended to have the same performance and specs as the original.  We did make updates to new materials, more durable fibers, less resin content, which can make subtle changes to the specifications.

 

The other thing does relate to bore-thru that were common in the days of the original Blue vs when the White one was release.  There were Bore-Thru versions of the original shaft that OEMs bought so the shaft would perform the same in their head as in normal heads (The bore thru also made the shaft alot stiffer).  Some of those Bore-Thru certainly ended up in the secondary market and there weren't any distinguishing features to note if it was the BT model or not, so people could have had BT models of the original and not known it.

[mister2cool]

2 hours ago, TrueTemper said:

The Blue Speed Coat (white version) was intended to have the same performance and specs as the original.  We did make updates to new materials, more durable fibers, less resin content, which can make subtle changes to the specifications.

 

The other thing does relate to bore-thru that were common in the days of the original Blue vs when the White one was release.  There were Bore-Thru versions of the original shaft that OEMs bought so the shaft would perform the same in their head as in normal heads (The bore thru also made the shaft alot stiffer).  Some of those Bore-Thru certainly ended up in the secondary market and there weren't any distinguishing features to note if it was the BT model or not, so people could have had BT models of the original and not known it.

Yeah I always wondered back then how I would know if a shaft was meant to be used in BT application or regular. 

So DB, was Tour Stiff something exclusive for Tour use back then? I don't recall seeing anything TX in those days. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by mister2cool

[AdamMH]

31 minutes ago, mister2cool said:

Yeah I always wondered back then how I would know if a shaft was meant to be used in BT application or regular. 

So DB, was Tour Stiff something exclusive for Tour use back then? I don't recall seeing anything TX in those days. 

 

I'm wondering if they're an in-between flex, as I've seen at least a couple Tour R shafts floating around.

[Valtiel]

On 11/27/2022 at 8:18 AM, rbpwrx said:

- ALSO: when I sight down the shaft, it looks fat through the middle. Almost like a Burner Bubble from back in the day. Anyone know if this was a design feature? Seems like an easy way to make a firmer shaft.
 

 

On 11/28/2022 at 10:55 AM, TrueTemper said:

And yes the Grafalloy Blue (my first shaft I designed) does have much wider geometry in the middle than most standard shafts.

 

DB

Yeah @rbpwrx the EI profile of the Blue shows what is probably the flattest stiffness progressions from handle to mid section of any shaft out there, SUPER linear. The tip still has some life to it to get some launch, like the Modus 130 iron shaft, because you are not getting any loading sensation out of the middle of this shaft, especially in the X-flex. I remember having an S-flex in a PING i3 driver back in the day and that thing felt as stout as any TX flex you can find today, save for maybe some of the Ventus Black TX flexes. The OG HZRDUS Black and Red might be considered to be in the same family, but with much stiffer handles. 

[rbpwrx]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Yeah @rbpwrx the EI profile of the Blue shows what is probably the flattest stiffness progressions from handle to mid section of any shaft out there, SUPER linear. The tip still has some life to it to get some launch, like the Modus 130 iron shaft, because you are not getting any loading sensation out of the middle of this shaft, especially in the X-flex. I remember having an S-flex in a PING i3 driver back in the day and that thing felt as stout as any TX flex you can find today, save for maybe some of the Ventus Black TX flexes. The OG HZRDUS Black and Red might be considered to be in the same family, but with much stiffer handles. 

I couldn't find the EI curve. You have it? Sounds a little like the like the LAGolf Trono, eh?  But doesn't feel exactly the same. I find the Blue to load in a restricted but pleasant way. Trono 75TX feels a little firmer through the middle but softer at the tip.

[grm24]

8 hours ago, mister2cool said:

Yeah I always wondered back then how I would know if a shaft was meant to be used in BT application or regular. 

So DB, was Tour Stiff something exclusive for Tour use back then? I don't recall seeing anything TX in those days. 

 

Some years back I had a TM R580XD TP that had a Tour S Blue shaft in it. IIRC it was slightly heavier than the OG Blue (70ish grams???). To me the Tour S Blue was not as stout, loaded easier and felt smoother than the original Blue. 

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, grm24 said:

Some years back I had a TM R580XD TP that had a Tour S Blue shaft in it. IIRC it was slightly heavier than the OG Blue (70ish grams???). To me the Tour S Blue was not as stout, loaded easier and felt smoother than the original Blue. 

Photo of a old quote from True Temper about BLUE TOUR

 

[rbpwrx]

20 hours ago, TrueTemper said:

In general as fibers get stiffer they get weaker, as in are easier to break and/or more brittle.  For example 90ton (125msi) are like glass and have much lower strength than 24 ton.  There are exceptions to the rule like T800 and T1100 type fibers which are stiffer (30-35ish tons) but have higer strength than most other fibers.

That's what I thought. Accounts for breakage in all-carbon high-modulus shafts like TPT? But why not just use T1100 throughout? Expense?