New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, ALIF said:

To be quite frank, their intent isn’t to give as much free information to you or other people as someone may like. The information they put out there for free it’s just that, free.

It is free in the same way an infomercial is free. Btw that’s fine, no issue there. It is what it is, they are running a business. 

I didn’t say that their swing method and preferences are wrong; but it is a swing method and like you said, they do have preferences.

[Nels55]

47 minutes ago, ALIF said:

To be quite frank, their intent isn’t to give as much free information to you or other people as someone may like. The information they put out there for free it’s just that, free. If you want more or more in depth I’m sure you could sign up on their site and pay for access to all of their videos. You could also go take a lesson from them either online or in person and see what they really teach. I’m sure they will tell you about different pros and about different matchups etc. However, as has been stated by others on this thread their general preference is more of a neutral type swing. I think Justin Rose would be a good example of that. Gives the average amateur a significantly better chance of being successful with the golf swing than a bunch of other “matched up” moves. If people in here want to copy or imitate the “outliers“ by all means more power to them. But some guys on tour are really really good in spite of the way they swing the club head, not because of the way they swing the club head. They have world class hand eye coordination which allows them to get away with certain things that most amateurs won’t be able to do. And again, AMG’s purpose with a lot of their videos is to disseminate what really goes on in the golf swing from a 3-D analytical perspective. Through this we have a very strong idea of what actually is really going on, not what we feel, think, or guess is going on. The first step to getting better is to have a true understanding of what you need to do. Now obviously the feel you may need to implement that may be totally different than what you’re actually be doing.

 

You may be correct but if Dr. Wright is correct in his research then it is possible that the mid core swing that AMG teaches will only work for a fairly small percentage of golfers. 

 

Also Mike Adams teaches swings matched up with the individual golfers needs in a similar manner based on research done on the golfing population.  Possibly perfect specimens like Adam Scott or Justin Rose do best with a really sound and pretty swing but oddballs like most of the rest of us may need something different.

 

I really don't know one way or the other just throwing the possibility out there.  Again LOL...

[Nels55]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

It is free in the same way an infomercial is free. Btw that’s fine, no issue there. It is what it is, they are running a business. 

I didn’t say that their swing method and preferences are wrong; but it is a swing method and like you said, they do have preferences.

I don't recall ever seeing any force plate data on AMG videos.  Is that correct?

[GoGoErky]

17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

GG teaches ''keep hands up'', he then pivots and shows his hands drop.

I know I literally say that in the post you quote. I was telling you that what you are saying Hogan says isn’t the same thing. You have tried to finally provide quotes about hogan talking about leaving the hands up but they have all been opposite of that

[Nard_S]

I'll say it again, try holding hands up and rotating to ball. Arms will drop. Impossible for it to not happen, you're a newbie, naive golfer, get it if you don't know that.  If you've been playing more than five years, don't understand, you may want to take up another hobby or find pleasure in anything else but ball striking.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I don't recall ever seeing any force plate data on AMG videos.  Is that correct?

 

They have force plates. Heck, their most recent video is almost entirely about force plates.

 

Also, I forgot I had this image. I think Manzella made it originally. It keeps the perspective or viewpoint consistent relative to the chest and takes the golfer's arms from where they are at the top to where they are at impact.

 

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I don't recall ever seeing any force plate data on AMG videos.  Is that correct?

I believe there is a bunch in their earlier videos on ground pressure. 
 

Those are excellent btw. They were one of the first to bring Dr. Kwon’s work to the masses. 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

They have force plates. Heck, their most recent video is almost entirely about force plates.

 

Also, I forgot I had this image. I think Manzella made it originally. It keeps the perspective or viewpoint consistent relative to the chest and takes the golfer's arms from where they are at the top to where they are at impact.

 

Get the arms in front 

 

Get the elbow forward

 

😂 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

They have force plates. Heck, their most recent video is almost entirely about force plates.

 

Also, I forgot I had this image. I think Manzella made it originally. It keeps the perspective or viewpoint consistent relative to the chest and takes the golfer's arms from where they are at the top to where they are at impact.

 

 

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I believe there is a bunch in their earlier videos on ground pressure. 
 

Those are excellent btw. They were one of the first to bring Dr. Kwon’s work to the masses. 

Okay, I remember now that I learned that pressure shifts quickly and mass shifts slowly when I was a member of AMG+.  Sigh, getting older and forgetting stuff...  LOL 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

They have force plates. Heck, their most recent video is almost entirely about force plates.

 

Also, I forgot I had this image. I think Manzella made it originally. It keeps the perspective or viewpoint consistent relative to the chest and takes the golfer's arms from where they are at the top to where they are at impact.

 

That’s such a good visual because it not only shows how much lower the arms are, but how much more forward the right elbow and left arm are in relation to the chest.  Ams leave their elbow in the same spot for much longer than pros do and never get the left arm forward on the chest enough and that’s why they cast and flip, just to get the club to the ball.

Edited February 20, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[ALIF]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

It is free in the same way an infomercial is free. Btw that’s fine, no issue there. It is what it is, they are running a business. 

I didn’t say that their swing method and preferences are wrong; but it is a swing method and like you said, they do have preferences.

Infomercial, you really are sounding now like you have an ax to grind with them. Lol.

 

I don’t think they teach a method, just certain fundamentals that are common to all great ball strikers. I guess if you want to call that a method feel free to do so. I guess if they’re teaching golfers what the best players in the world do that’s a pretty good “method”.

Edited February 20, 2023 by ALIF
Typo

[ALIF]

17 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s such a good visual because it not only shows how much lower the arms are, but how much more forward the right elbow and left arm are in relation to the chest.  Ams leave their elbow in the same spot for much longer than pros do and never get the left arm forward on the chest enough and that’s why they cast and flip, just to get the club to the ball.

But Monte, I want a pivot driven swing that has less moving parts and a slower rate of closure for a more stable club face. Can’t I just leave my arms up and do some bouncy bouncy moves and everything will be bliss?  I was going to do that bouncy move and get a new set of blades so I could Monday qualify.

[MonteScheinblum]

26 minutes ago, ALIF said:

But Monte, I want a pivot driven swing that has less moving parts and a slower rate of closure for a more stable club face. Can’t I just leave my arms up and do some bouncy bouncy moves and everything will be bliss?  I was going to do that bouncy move and get a new set of blades so I could Monday qualify.

This thread is being watched by a lot of people.

 

I have gotten phone calls, texts and PM’s from 5 too 50 instructors , among others.

 

I have heard some pretty funny questions and statements.

[Hilts1969]

2 hours ago, ALIF said:

Infomercial, you really are sounding now like you have an ax to grind with them. Lol.

 

I don’t think they teach a method, just certain fundamentals that are common to all great ball strikers. I guess if you want to call that a method feel free to do so. I guess if they’re teaching golfers what the best players in the world do that’s a pretty good “method”.

It's been very transparent from the beginning. It doesn't matter how many golfers they use and a lot were used in this one it ain't good enough. Well it is but it doesn't fit with the confirmation bias.

 

Not sure why some even watched the video or post in the thread such is their lack of balance.

 

I mean the first seconds of the video shows a load of clubs from loads of different golfers including outliers. But but but what about the outliers they say? Haha. What about players like Dustin? They have used Dustin. Not everyone stands still and throws their arms straight like that Dustin bloke. He doesn't. Right yeah but there are definitely golfers somewhere they haven't looked at. Someone who twitches the left ear or bounces his shoulders. I mean GEARS is that basic and misses so much little things it's like making a phone call with 2 plastic cups and a piece of string.

 

Maybe they were meaning to click on another thread but right bounced onto this one 🙂

Edited February 20, 2023 by Hilts1969

[Golfbeat]

9 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Get the arms in front 

 

Get the elbow forward

 

😂

 

And close that damn club face!

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, ALIF said:

But Monte, I want a pivot driven swing that has less moving parts and a slower rate of closure for a more stable club face. Can’t I just leave my arms up and do some bouncy bouncy moves and everything will be bliss?  I was going to do that bouncy move and get a new set of blades so I could Monday qualify.

I guess that you are referring to Milo Line's swing and teaching here?  One problem with your logic is that Milo's swing works very well and his teaching works well for some percentage of his students.  I believe that is one reason for some of the contention on this thread.

[RoyalTroon]

23 hours ago, MPStrat said:

It’s cool to see that things have changed a bit around here recently. Some seem to have formed their own opinions and it’s not just the same daily regurgitation by mid cap zealots that took place the last few years. Makes the discussion more interesting. 

 

19 hours ago, fore_life said:

what do you think about this over simplification?

 

 

Some will say there are no comparisons between golf and baseball swings but those comments would be coming from a lack of understanding.     Nice overall swing by the way.  I'll put up video in your metaphor thread you might find interesting showing what a process looks like facing Verlander's slider breaking away. 

[MPStrat]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I have gotten phone calls, texts and PM’s from 5 too 50 instructors , among others.

 

I have heard some pretty funny questions and statements.

I have gotten a few texts and PMs myself from people you might be surprised are enjoying this thread but don’t want to post and rock the boat. 
 

There is a private Facebook discussion going on among some very relevant teachers discussing some things in this thread. I don’t have permission to share that information so I won’t. 
 

[MPStrat]

8 hours ago, ALIF said:

But Monte, I want a pivot driven swing that has less moving parts and a slower rate of closure for a more stable club face. Can’t I just leave my arms up and do some bouncy bouncy moves and everything will be bliss?  I was going to do that bouncy move and get a new set of blades so I could Monday qualify.

Is that what you took from my posts? 

[MPStrat]

These two golfers are poles apart in how they they went from p3-p5. That is a fact. If you believe they are doing the same thing I have a bridge to sell you. 
 

It is perfectly ok that they aren’t doing the same thing. These are 2 of the best to ever do it. 
 

[RoyalTroon]

46 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

There is a private Facebook discussion going on among some very relevant teachers discussing some things in this thread. I don’t have permission to share that information so I won’t.

 

The conspirators!  🤣

Edited February 20, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[RoyalTroon]

Wow, one too many wows on the same page, clicking on wrong thread...don't call me a plagiarist though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnrobison]

10 hours ago, ALIF said:

But Monte, I want a pivot driven swing that has less moving parts and a slower rate of closure for a more stable club face. Can’t I just leave my arms up and do some bouncy bouncy moves and everything will be bliss?  I was going to do that bouncy move and get a new set of blades so I could Monday qualify.

In fairness, there are plenty of very good players who have to have those feels and who are better with them than with arm speed feels. And there are very good instructors who know how to get the player into the right position/sequence by telling them to do something really bizarre, knowing it's feel, not real.

 

There's a difference between saying that it feels that way and saying that it's actually what happens. It's an important distinction to make to avoid chasing a look that matches the feeling of something that doesn't actually happen. The first one that comes to mind is telling a player to rotate their lead hip away from the target. They may need that feeling but you don't want them to actually try to make it happen in 2D video analysis. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

In fairness, there are plenty of very good players who have to have those feels and who are better with them than with arm speed feels. And there are very good instructors who know how to get the player into the right position/sequence by telling them to do something really bizarre, knowing it's feel, not real.

 

Feel ain't real… except to the player it's very real.

 

I once taught back-to-back lessons that had to do the same mechanical change… and their feels were almost the complete opposites. And no, one was not a lefty. 😄 So, yes, it's the job of the instructor to find the "feel" that produces the right mechanical change in the player… and especially when it's an odd one, to make sure the student knows what they are actually trying to do/change so that if the feel drifts or changes over time, they can check it and adapt.

 

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

There's a difference between saying that it feels that way and saying that it's actually what happens. It's an important distinction to make to avoid chasing a look that matches the feeling of something that doesn't actually happen. The first one that comes to mind is telling a player to rotate their lead hip away from the target. They may need that feeling but you don't want them to actually try to make it happen in 2D video analysis. 

 

I don't hate the Milo videos, but if I had a bone to pick it'd be in this area. I think he teaches "feels" a bit more than "reality" and that's tough to do in a video that's intended for non-specific people. Even words like "bounce" imply a velocity, a quickness, etc. to it, and if his feel is that he "leaves the arms up and side bends exclusively" (I'm not saying he's said this, just making an example) but that's not what he really does, then it's going to misfire for some non-zero percentage of people who actually try to make his feel "real."

 

When I've done videos with feels (we all have to), I try to explain the mechanics first and then say "a feel that may help you" or "try these out…" or something.

[ALIF]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I guess that you are referring to Milo Line's swing and teaching here?  One problem with your logic is that Milo's swing works very well and his teaching works well for some percentage of his students.  I believe that is one reason for some of the contention on this thread.

Partially yes but partially no. How's that for an answer? Basically this is been the same argument in this instruction forum for at least the last 10+ years. Like Monte and others (AMG) have said many times it's not an arm driven swing or pivot driven swing, is a combination of appropriate amounts of both. It's not one of the other. And most people around here just can't get that into their heads. I guess we all know what the definition of insanity is don't we?

[games]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I have gotten a few texts and PMs myself from people you might be surprised are enjoying this thread but don’t want to post and rock the boat. 
 

There is a private Facebook discussion going on among some very relevant teachers discussing some things in this thread. I don’t have permission to share that information so I won’t. 
 

Wait, let me guess:  Be Better Golf, Shawn Clement, Milo Lines, and My Swing Evolution?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, ALIF said:

Partially yes but partially no. How's that for an answer? Basically this is been the same argument in this instruction forum for at least the last 10+ years. Like Monte and others (AMG) have said many times it's not an arm driven swing or pivot driven swing, is a combination of appropriate amounts of both. It's not one of the other. And most people around here just can't get that into their heads. I guess we all know what the definition of insanity is don't we?

 

Yeah, that's pretty well said. I sometimes FEEL like my arms are passive in my swing, but they're not. They're doing stuff. They're active.

 

Kinda pairs with what I said about how I don't like videos that almost primarily try to teach a "feel" to a general audience.

[ALIF]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

In fairness, there are plenty of very good players who have to have those feels and who are better with them than with arm speed feels. And there are very good instructors who know how to get the player into the right position/sequence by telling them to do something really bizarre, knowing it's feel, not real.

 

There's a difference between saying that it feels that way and saying that it's actually what happens. It's an important distinction to make to avoid chasing a look that matches the feeling of something that doesn't actually happen. The first one that comes to mind is telling a player to rotate their lead hip away from the target. They may need that feeling but you don't want them to actually try to make it happen in 2D video analysis. 

I totally agree but the whole point of this discussion wasn't what we feel what is going on in the swing but what actually goes on in the swing as analyzed by 3D motion capture system. 

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, ALIF said:

I totally agree but the whole point of this discussion wasn't what we feel what is going on in the swing but what actually goes on in the swing as analyzed by 3D motion capture system. 

And my thing is… what goes on in the swing, for which pro?

 

and they say “the best players”

 

Ok, which “best players”?

 

Because Rory and Xander aren’t doing anywhere close to the same thing. 

 

Justin Rose and DJ aren’t doing  anywhere close to the same thing. 
 

Adam Scott and Cam Smith aren’t doing anywhere close to the same thing. 
 

Jon Rahm and Rickie Fowler aren’t doing anywhere close to the same thing. 

 

I could keep going.
 

Now, we could have a discussion on what are swing fundamentals among the best players in the world. That would be interesting. That list is very small. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

Now, we could have a discussion on what are swing fundamentals among the best players in the world. That would be interesting. That list is very small. 

 

It's only "very small" if you want to be very specific about what you're calling their "swing fundamentals." The broader you get, the more commonalities they'll have.

 

Even DJ is widening his elbow out from this point on down: