Club Champion fitting mystery…

[cocolamb22]

Hey y’all,

 

it’s been 10+ years since I had done any sort of iron fitting, so today I went and did an iron fitting at CC. 

 

Current set: Ping s56 with Modus 120x 0.5” over standard

 

 A little about me: current play as a scratch. Ballstriking is usually my strength. Today’s numbers with the 6 iron swing speed was 101-103 mph on average, but smash factor was only 1.28

 

 We tried moving into the ping i59 head, then the i230, and then to the just to see the TM P770. I hit KBS $ taper, DG TI S400, Oban, and the PX Rifle 6.5. 
 

long story short, the highest smash was 1.33 (1.38 is your average). At that point the fitter said he had no idea what was going on and that I’m working way too hard (aka my irons aren’t efficient enough) for my results, yet we couldn’t find a combo that performed. Even solid strikes were going no where. 
 

Anyone ever come up against an issue like this? We basically ended the iron fitting there and moved on to a driver fitting. The driver fitting was much better, and some of the new drivers easily out performed my Titleist 910 D3. But the iron fitting left myself and the fitter both baffled and stumped. 
 

I’m not sure where to do from here other than keep playing my current set, but with less than ideal numbers. 
 

let me know what you think! I know there are some expert fitters on here and club junkies much smarter than myself. I can post Trackman numbers as well if it helps!  
 

TIA!

 

(ps: CC and the fitter were great and overall it was a great experience and I ended up purchasing a new driver. I’m not blaming them, but am genuinely confused!)

 

[T_Golf_23]

Putting smash factor aside… was there one set over the other that had better dispersion?? 
 

did one set of irons show better carry distance or more ideal spin rates vs the others?? 
 

i understand the argument for smash factor, but I think that so much gets lost or overlooked when we focus too much in that metric.  

[cocolamb22]

1 minute ago, T_Golf_23 said:

Putting smash factor aside… was there one set over the other that had better dispersion?? 
 

did one set of irons show better carry distance or more ideal spin rates vs the others?? 
 

i understand the argument for smash factor, but I think that so much gets lost or overlooked when we focus too much in that metric.  

 
The KBS $ was very good dispersion, as well as the Modus. I’m a smooth transition player but load it hard. I get your point, but 10 point drop in SM from “average” is quite drastic, no? But again, I don’t know enough to be an expert. I’m just feeling like I’m leaving a lot of performance on the table

[T_Golf_23]

4 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

 
The KBS $ was very good dispersion, as well as the Modus. I’m a smooth transition player but load it hard. I get your point, but 10 point drop in SM from “average” is quite drastic, no? But again, I don’t know enough to be an expert. I’m just feeling like I’m leaving a lot of performance on the table

What were the trackman settings??
 

Been to club champion before as well and the numbers just didn’t makes sense…. Turned out the trackman was not level. 
 

ever go into a PGA superstore and hit a few clubs…. Your 7 iron is going 

200 yards….. then you find out the set it at 1 mike above sea level. 

 

just saying …. It could have been unrelated to the equipment. 

[copperjeff]

24 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

Hey y’all,

 

it’s been 10+ years since I had done any sort of iron fitting, so today I went and did an iron fitting at CC. 

 

Current set: Ping s56 with Modus 120x 0.5” over standard

 

 A little about me: current play as a scratch. Ballstriking is usually my strength. Today’s numbers with the 6 iron swing speed was 101-103 mph on average, but smash factor was only 1.28

 

 We tried moving into the ping i59 head, then the i230, and then to the just to see the TM P770. I hit KBS $ taper, DG TI S400, Oban, and the PX Rifle 6.5. 
 

long story short, the highest smash was 1.33 (1.38 is your average). At that point the fitter said he had no idea what was going on and that I’m working way too hard (aka my irons aren’t efficient enough) for my results, yet we couldn’t find a combo that performed. Even solid strikes were going no where. 
 

Anyone ever come up against an issue like this? We basically ended the iron fitting there and moved on to a driver fitting. The driver fitting was much better, and some of the new drivers easily out performed my Titleist 910 D3. But the iron fitting left myself and the fitter both baffled and stumped. 
 

I’m not sure where to do from here other than keep playing my current set, but with less than ideal numbers. 
 

let me know what you think! I know there are some expert fitters on here and club junkies much smarter than myself. I can post Trackman numbers as well if it helps!  
 

TIA!

 

(ps: CC and the fitter were great and overall it was a great experience and I ended up purchasing a new driver. I’m not blaming them, but am genuinely confused!)

 

100+ is very fast for a 6 iron. What was your speed with driver for comparison?

 

Also, what were ball speed, launch and spin like on the 6 iron?

[cocolamb22]

Yeah. I understand and it sounds somewhat inflated. However Driver spring speed range today was 117-121. 
 

Here are some screen shots of a few shots to give an idea with swing speed, spin, launch, etc. along with the low smash

 

 

[LaterOn61]

I agree with you that for a scratch golfer I would expect the ball speed and smash to be in a tight dispersion and the 6i numbers are all over the map.

 

CC has a pretty clunky adapter which adds some swing weight. I wonder if you were testing clubs much heavier than your gamer.

[copperjeff]

Launch angle is high and speed is inconsistent in the data set. Indicative of inconsistent contact possibly flippy at the bottom. If speed was more consistent I'd lean towards contact too high in the face. Could be an issue hitting off the mat they had but hard to say. 

 

Solutions are going to depend on what the exact cause was.

[cocolamb22]

Yeah, most misses were high on the face but still centered. I didn’t like the fiberbuilt grass I was hitting off of and thought that could have played a part in it. The frustrating part is even on solid shots I was still no where near optimal smash, ball speed, or carry numbers. 
 

Driver fitting was a completely different story which had me so confused

[Krt22]

Overly shallow, likely hitting them slightly fat if your contact was high on the face 

[Cwebb]

How do your irons work on the course? 

[drclutch]

What balls were you using? What I've learned from the guy runs the trackman at my local place, when using normal balls (without the reflective sticker) the spin rates will be estimated (indicated by the numbers being shown in italics on the trackman screen). If the estimated spin is off, then all ball data will be off. I've since last year been using the Pro V1/V1x RCT balls and you get much more accurate data as the LM can accurately measure spin. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

13 hours ago, cocolamb22 said:

Yeah, most misses were high on the face but still centered. I didn’t like the fiberbuilt grass I was hitting off of and thought that could have played a part in it. The frustrating part is even on solid shots I was still no where near optimal smash, ball speed, or carry numbers. 
 

Driver fitting was a completely different story which had me so confused

I'd get another fitting in another simulator. With that clubhead speed your ball speed should be at least in the 140 range. What's your normal 6 iron distance? That clubhead speed seems a bit high with a 6 iron.

[physasst]

I've had 3 fittings in the past 2 years...and while I am going through lessons and swing changes, there was a difference. GolfTEC was different than CC, and PXG was different than both of them. FTR, the PXG fitting seemed, at least with irons to be the closest to numbers when I compared my old irons to numbers I get outdoors on TM, GC quad, or on my SkyTrak at home. Just a thought. I won't presume to understand the issues. 

 

M

[cocolamb22]

12 hours ago, Cwebb said:

How do your irons work on the course? 

I’m generally a picker. I tend to hit it high. Fade is my natural tendency. I play the fade 95% off the time unless I absolutely have to hit a draw. My miss is a high spinny fade that falls short & right

[cocolamb22]

9 hours ago, drclutch said:

What balls were you using? What I've learned from the guy runs the trackman at my local place, when using normal balls (without the reflective sticker) the spin rates will be estimated (indicated by the numbers being shown in italics on the trackman screen). If the estimated spin is off, then all ball data will be off. I've since last year been using the Pro V1/V1x RCT balls and you get much more accurate data as the LM can accurately measure spin. 

Yeah, we used the ProV1 RCT balls for the fitting. We thought the ball might have been cracked, but we switched them out and it was the same story

[cocolamb22]

33 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I'd get another fitting in another simulator. With that clubhead speed your ball speed should be at least in the 140 range. What's your normal 6 iron distance? That clubhead speed seems a bit high with a 6 iron.

I play at altitude where my 6 iron goes about 210-215. Played Bandon back in November and was hitting my stock 6 iron about 195-200

[cocolamb22]

14 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Overly shallow, likely hitting them slightly fat if your contact was high on the face 

Can you elaborate on shallow? What numbers should I be or what’s ideal?

[tthomasgolfer605]

11 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

I play at altitude where my 6 iron goes about 210-215. Played Bandon back in November and was hitting my stock 6 iron about 195-200

Yeah. I think something was wrong with the sim. Clubhead speed should be around 94-95 mph hence the low smash factor.

[Cwebb]

2 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

I’m generally a picker. I tend to hit it high. Fade is my natural tendency. I play the fade 95% off the time unless I absolutely have to hit a draw. My miss is a high spinny fade that falls short & right

 

Key point here:  You're a picker/sweeper

 

Design detail:  Iron heads that have been independently measured that have a high Actual Vertical COG (sweet-spot height), will never produce optimal energy transfer for your player type.

 

Why:  Because your lower impact pattern on the face as a picker, will rarely get the COG underneath the center of the ball,... which is required for pure contact and full energy transfer.

 

The center of a golf ball sitting on a tight lie measures .840".  So irons with a sweet-spot higher than this will always be much more difficult to hit pure for you, especially from normal to tighter lies...which is what we play from most of the time in real conditions on the course.

 

For example, the Ping i59 that you tested has an AVCOG of .935", which is very high in relation to the .840" center of the ball, making it very difficult for you to pure them.

 

I would find out which iron designs have a lower AVCOG and start testing those.  If I were fitting you, I'd be looking at irons that are in the area of .780" and lower, which will give you more room to work with in the vertical aspect of impact, making them much easier to hit, regardless of the overall size of the head.  A lower AVCOG does not have to be a large cavity back.  In fact many of the lower options are more compact player's designs.

[cocolamb22]

4 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Yeah. I think something was wrong with the sim. Clubhead speed should be around 94-95 mph hence the low smash factor.

Interesting. My driver swing speed was accurate ( I’ve measured on 2 other local trackmans) so I wonder why the 6 iron was

measuring different. I’ll try and get on another trackman to measure the 6 iron specifically!

[cocolamb22]

3 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

Key point here:  You're a picker/sweeper

 

Design detail:  Iron heads that have been independently measured that have a high Actual Vertical COG (sweet-spot height), will never produce optimal energy transfer for your player type.

 

Why:  Because your lower impact pattern on the face as a picker, will rarely get the COG underneath the center of the ball,... which is required for pure contact and full energy transfer.

 

The center of a golf ball sitting on a tight lie measures .840".  So irons with a sweet-spot higher than this will always be much more difficult to hit pure for you, especially from normal to tighter lies...which is what we play from most of the time in real conditions on the course.

 

For example, the Ping i59 that you tested has an AVCOG of .935", which is very high in relation to the .840" center of the ball, making it very difficult for you to pure them.

 

I would find out which iron designs have a lower AVCOG and start testing those.  If I were fitting you, I'd be looking at irons that are in the area of .780" and lower, which will give you more room to work with in the vertical aspect of impact, making them much easier to hit, regardless of the overall size of the head.  A lower AVCOG does not have to be a large cavity back.  In fact many of the lower options are more compact player's designs.

Is there a place specifically where I can go find this data? That’sa very interesting theory that I’d like to learn more about

[Krt22]

12 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

Can you elaborate on shallow? What numbers should I be or what’s ideal?

At that speed -4 minimum on average, if anything a little steeper since you are a higher speed player, when you are -1 or -2 your low point is likely too close to the ball which causes inconsistent contact (which aligns with your statement that you are a picker). Given your ball speeds are varying by 25mph and your spin is also quite variable, you aren't making consistent/clean contact. 

 

Where you normally play, do you have very tightly mowed fairways or are they typically a little bit fluffier?

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

Interesting. My driver swing speed was accurate ( I’ve measured on 2 other local trackmans) so I wonder why the 6 iron was

measuring different. I’ll try and get on another trackman to measure the 6 iron specifically!

Do you carry the driver about 290ish at sea level?

[cocolamb22]

Just now, Krt22 said:

At that speed -4 minimum on average, if anything a little steeper since you are a higher speed player, when you are -1 or -2 your low point is likely too close to the ball which causes inconsistent contact (which aligns with your statement that you are a picker). Given your ball speeds are varying by 25mph and your spin is also quite variable, you aren't making consistent/clean contact. 

 

Where you normally play, do you have very tightly mowed fairways or are they typically a little bit fluffier?

It’s medium turf where I generally play. I played out in Hawaii for a few years in college which was different. 
 

I’ll admit that My ball striking was terrible yesterday, but I was leaning more on the fluffy turf I was hitting on was playing a part in that. Accuracy was great, but again, just terrible consistency in strike. Could also have just been an off day with it being winter here and not playing much, but it was still unusual compared to my norm

[cocolamb22]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Do you carry the driver about 290ish at sea level?

With no wind? About 295-305

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

With no wind? About 295-305

I would say your clubhead speed with 6 iron is around 95 then. If you took that 6 iron outside you'd probably get 195-200 out of it. I'd disregard that sim session.

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, cocolamb22 said:

It’s medium turf where I generally play. I played out in Hawaii for a few years in college which was different. 
 

I’ll admit that My ball striking was terrible yesterday, but I was leaning more on the fluffy turf I was hitting on was playing a part in that. Accuracy was great, but again, just terrible consistency in strike. Could also have just been an off day with it being winter here and not playing much, but it was still unusual compared to my norm

If you a picker and play off regular grass that isn't too tight,  you can get away with that pattern since you are coming in so shallow. But on the fiberbuilt mats the hard bristles will get in between the ball and club face, so it kills speed and lowers spin. If you just had an off day, I would not look into it too much more.

[tthomasgolfer605]

14 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

At that speed -4 minimum on average, if anything a little steeper since you are a higher speed player, when you are -1 or -2 your low point is likely too close to the ball which causes inconsistent contact (which aligns with your statement that you are a picker). Given your ball speeds are varying by 25mph and your spin is also quite variable, you aren't making consistent/clean contact. 

 

Where you normally play, do you have very tightly mowed fairways or are they typically a little bit fluffier?

Even at the swings where the angle of attack was -4 or so, the smash factor doesn't equate. I'm thinking the sim measured clubhead speed incorrectly with the 6 iron. 

 

[cocolamb22]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If you a picker and play off regular grass that isn't too tight,  you can get away with that pattern since you are coming in so shallow. But on the fiberbuilt mats the hard bristles will get in between the ball and club face, so it kills speed and lowers spin. If you just had an off day, I would not look into it too much more.

Okay. So I’ll stick with the mat being the issue with strike, lol. 
 

frustrating to fight it for 1.5 hours but good to hear it’s not as big of deal as the fitter made it seem