Why do PGA players have a negative angle of attack for driver?

[RichieHunt]

1. The Trackman data may be outdated.  That's been going around for close to 10 years when a lot of players didn't know about hitting up vs. hitting down and there were still issues with learning how to effectively drive the ball while hitting up.

 

2.  Tour pros swing at a much faster speed than amateurs.  That will cause the ball to fly further and get more lift.  An amateur swinging 95 mph could better benefit from changing to an upward AoA than a Tour pro swinging at 114 mph.

 

3.  Wind can play a big role in this as well.  In 2019 Pro Golf Synopsis Andrew Rice did a study that showed how players subconsciously change their wrist and attack angle conditions based on the wind.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[Florida Gator]

Just happened to see this thread looking for something else and after reading the comments, this one key point needs to be stated and reinforced.  

 

Tour players have their hands ahead of the ball at impact and technically de-loft just about every shot, which may drive the negative AoA number referenced.  That does not imply that they are not hitting up on the ball with their driver, they just have their hands ahead of the clubhead where they should be.  

 

What is important to note is where the ball is in your stance relative to where your swing bottoms our.  At setup, I tee the ball up to be on the same line as my left ear, or chest logo on my golf shirt as a right hand player.  My swing bottoms out about 6 inches to the right of that location, so that without consciously trying to “hit up on the ball” I am hitting up on the ball.  It’s physics, not anything other than where the bottom of the swing arc is relative to the ball.  

 

I struggled in the fall of 2021 with my driver and had a season full of the surprise snap hooks.  Frustrated and convinced my driver was the problem and not me, I went to my fitter for a new driver and was shown the light.  Now, when I setup to hit my tee shot I first press my hands a tad and my only thought is to HIT DOWN ON THE BALL just like every other shot.  Trackman backed my fitters advice and within 45 minutes my driver was cured but as any self-respecting WRXer would do, I still bought the TSi4.  Another piece of this, which is important to note, my fitter has me in an 8* TSi4 set at D1 (7.25* loft, std lie), 44.5” Ventus Black TR 70X with 2” tipping but increased the head weight 4 grams.  I say all of this for one reason, the pros do in fact hit down, but the clubhead is traveling on an upward angle, that difference is the spin loft.  The Tour pros have all of their equipment set up perfectly for them, and most have at least one extra set of eyes on them in the process.  Controlling the spin loft is not always easy, and sometimes it requires a fitter or coach to identify the root cause of what is keeping you from maximizing your driver.  

 

Hopefully some of you will find some value in all of this, or perhaps this may help drive your next discussion during a fitting to try and optimize your setup.  

Edited March 19, 2023 by Florida Gator

[ezra76]

I got mine up to 8* and 17* launch. I don't know how to get it back down now. 🤣

[kowalgolf]

12 hours ago, Florida Gator said:

Just happened to see this thread looking for something else and after reading the comments, this one key point needs to be stated and reinforced.  

 

Tour players have their hands ahead of the ball at impact and technically de-loft just about every shot, which may drive the negative AoA number referenced.  That does not imply that they are not hitting up on the ball with their driver, they just have their hands ahead of the clubhead where they should be.  

 

What is important to note is where the ball is in your stance relative to where your swing bottoms our.  At setup, I tee the ball up to be on the same line as my left ear, or chest logo on my golf shirt as a right hand player.  My swing bottoms out about 6 inches to the right of that location, so that without consciously trying to “hit up on the ball” I am hitting up on the ball.  It’s physics, not anything other than where the bottom of the swing arc is relative to the ball.  

 

I struggled in the fall of 2021 with my driver and had a season full of the surprise snap hooks.  Frustrated and convinced my driver was the problem and not me, I went to my fitter for a new driver and was shown the light.  Now, when I setup to hit my tee shot I first press my hands a tad and my only thought is to HIT DOWN ON THE BALL just like every other shot.  Trackman backed my fitters advice and within 45 minutes my driver was cured but as any self-respecting WRXer would do, I still bought the TSi4.  Another piece of this, which is important to note, my fitter has me in an 8* TSi4 set at D1 (7.25* loft, std lie), 44.5” Ventus Black TR 70X with 2” tipping but increased the head weight 4 grams.  I say all of this for one reason, the pros do in fact hit down, but the clubhead is traveling on an upward angle, that difference is the spin loft.  The Tour pros have all of their equipment set up perfectly for them, and most have at least one extra set of eyes on them in the process.  Controlling the spin loft is not always easy, and sometimes it requires a fitter or coach to identify the root cause of what is keeping you from maximizing your driver.  

 

Hopefully some of you will find some value in all of this, or perhaps this may help drive your next discussion during a fitting to try and optimize your setup.  

Chris Ryan did a video of Adam Scott's iron swing at set up and ball contact. His body was so far forward vs. address was ridiculous. My take is the whole body drifts or recenters a lot more than I thought. Last year I watched a guy in his mid 70's hitting fades and draws with a controlled ball flight and I asked him what his intent was and he said I try to hit or see the front of the ball. That didn't make sense to me but his contact and trajectory I wish I had.

[vernon]

Well this certainly clears everything up........🤦‍♂️

[nkurz]

16 hours ago, Florida Gator said:

 It’s physics, not anything other than where the bottom of the swing arc is relative to the ball.

 

It's good to say this clearly like you do:  you can have a positive or negative AOA with exactly the same swing by just moving the ball forward or back.   If the low point is at the ball, it's a 0 AOA.  If the low point is after the ball, it's a negative AOA.  If the low point is before the ball, it's a positive AOA.  

 

There's no complicated swing change necessary.  If you are starting with a decent swing, there is no timing adjustment necessary.  If anything, the hard part is keeping the rest of your swing the exactly the same even though the ball is in a different position.   People make it sound hard, but it's not.

 

You don't need to try to---and probably shouldn't---try to swing up at the ball. Your thought can still be "hit down on the ball" (although I prefer "swing through the ball").   But if you want to experiment with a different AOA, you can just move the ball a few inches and see what happens.   

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

Hitting up with a negative angle of attack?

 

The ball is influenced by both the force with which is struck, and the external ballistics from the air.

 

Both are maximized when a human being is the power source with a descending strike.