USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[clevited]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Yes there are always anecdotes (that guy I know) - but general populations of athlete data does not support athletes getting faster in their sport in their 40.  I’m sure there are expectations.

 

40 isn't old man.  Golf isn't football.  The body can maintain much of its speed or even gain well into 40s and maybe even 50s.  It will depend on the individual but I can guarantee you, Adam Scott is healthier and fitter than I.  He also played during the transition to golfers getting and staying fit.  

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

The point I was trying to make is that nobody knew if the DGX100 was the best option for him in 2003.  I think I hit on a real sim for the first time in 2002-2003.  It measured CH speed, ball speed, and carry.  The total was an estimate because it didn't measure spin.  

I understand what you are saying.   I guess what I’m getting it is we can’t use today’s standard of optimization in 2003 cause it didn’t exist.

 Did Adam Scott have access to the best equipment and fitters in the world in 2003?

[clevited]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I understand what you are saying.   I guess what I’m getting it is we can’t use today’s standard of optimization in 2003 cause it didn’t exist.

 Did Adam Scott have access to the best equipment and fitters in the world in 2003?

 

Lol, man, just drop it and move on.  Take the L.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I understand what you are saying.   I guess what I’m getting it is we can’t use today’s standard of optimization in 2003 cause it didn’t exist.

 Did Adam Scott have access to the best equipment and fitters in the world in 2003?

 

I would guess he did, but it wasn't great.  I would bet the house that he does now.  That's why it's so puzzling when he says what he says about how it takes less skill now when he hits fewer fairways.  

[Pnwpingi210]

8 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

40 isn't old man.  Golf isn't football.  The body can maintain much of its speed or even gain well into 40s and maybe even 50s.  It will depend on the individual but I can guarantee you, Adam Scott is healthier and fitter than I.  He also played during the transition to golfers getting and staying fit.  

Sure.  There are the padraig Harrington and phill micklesons that saw an uptick in speed in their late 40s -50s but most professional golfers see a decline in speed, power, mobility in their 40s.

 

I’m not going to beat a dead horse on the professional (peak conditioned athlete in their prime) vs amateur or untrained populations gaining fitness or speed.  Not apples to apples

 

Edited May 22 by Pnwpingi210

[clevited]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Sure.  There are the padraig Harrington and phill micklesons that saw an uptick in speed in their late 50s, but most professional golfers see a decline in speed, power, mobility in their 40s.

 

I’m not going to beat a dead horse on the professional (peak conditioned athlete in their prime) vs amateur or untrained populations gaining fitness or speed.  Not apples to apples

 

 

This is GOLF, not football.  In your 40s you are more prone to injury rather than get appreciably less fast swinging what is effectively a very light weight around your body.  

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, clevited said:

 

This is GOLF, not football.  In your 40s you are more prone to injury rather than get appreciably less fast swinging what is effectively a very light weight around your body.  

The data is out there to support what I’m saying on the pga tour website.  (Clubheadspeed is tracked and posted for all golfers dating back 10 years If I remember correctly.   If you look you will see the majority (over 50% of the golfers) that transition from their 30s to their 40s lose club head speed.

 

You still haven’t provided us with anything to support you statement other than I know reason and logic, trust me.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

4 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Sure.  There are the padraig Harrington and phill micklesons that saw an uptick in speed in their late 40s -50s but most professional golfers see a decline in speed, power, mobility in their 40s.

 

I’m not going to beat a dead horse on the professional (peak conditioned athlete in their prime) vs amateur or untrained populations gaining fitness or speed.  Not apples to apples

 

To take it full circle, I think it becomes rather apparent why the majority of players complaining about distance and lack of skill happen to be of a certain generation (or older).  

[clevited]

13 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

The data is out there to support what I’m saying on the pga tour website.  (Clubheadspeed is tracked and posted for all golfers dating back 10 years If I remember correctly.   If you look you will see the majority (over 50% of the golfers) that transition from their 30s to their 40s lose club head speed.

 

You still haven’t provided us with anything to support you statement other than I know reason and logic, trust me.

 

Lol.  I will again teach you something.  Some people have researched and read, and watched documentaries, videos etc etc etc, and learned a TON over many years and this results in some conclusions based on logic and reason.  As I have said before, it is impossible to regurgitate such knowledge in silly threads like this.  Sometimes you just have to nod your head, get off your keyboard and make a note to validate it yourself some day rather than argue with the person that actually knows something you don't seem to know.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Lol.  I will again teach you something.  Some people have researched and read, and watched documentaries, videos etc etc etc, and learned a TON over many years and this results in some conclusions based on logic and reason.  As I have said before, it is impossible to regurgitate such knowledge in silly threads like this.  Sometimes you just have to nod your head, get off your keyboard and make a note to validate it yourself some day rather than argue with the person that actually knows something you don't seem to know.

Yes.  Your opinion conflicts with data.  I learned this

[clevited]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

Yes.  Your opinion conflicts with data.  I learned this

 

Use your noggin.  Stop mindlessly reading "data" and think.

[kiwigolf72]

I have no issues with the rollback.

if I'm hitting an extra club or 2 for my approach so be it.

I have been scratch or better for over 30 years, I'm hitting it further now than I ever have and contrary to what some people may believe, for me it has more to do with technology than suddenly finding some extra horsepower in my swing.

Edited May 22 by kiwigolf72

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I have no issues with the rollback.

if I'm hitting an extra club or 2 for my approach so be it.

I have been scratch or better for over 30 years, I'm hitting it further now than I ever have and contrary to what some people may believe, for me it has more to do with technology than suddenly find some extra horsepower in my swing.

 

Optimization has a LOT to do with this.  Which used to require a whole sale swing change and a lot of tinkering with lots of different clubs but can now be had off the shelf for the average player.  

 

Most have no idea how many yards they were leaving on the table back in the day with their old equipment.  You would have had to mess around with your swing and lots of clubs to get something comparable to what an adjustable driver does today.

Edited May 22 by clevited

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Use your noggin.  Stop mindlessly reading "data" and think.

I’m learning!
 

We believe the data only when it supports our opinion (say like driving distance by the tour leader has remained relatively flat for 20 years - see Hank kuehne and Rory.)

 

but when data conflicts with our opinion (age related decline of speed and power output amongst elite athletes age - early 20s to 40s)  we say that’s not right, I used my noggin!  Trust me over the numbers.

 

im learning, thank you for clarifying.

[NPVWhiz]

42 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Lol.  I will again teach you something.  Some people have researched and read, and watched documentaries, videos etc etc etc, and learned a TON over many years and this results in some conclusions based on logic and reason.  As I have said before, it is impossible to regurgitate such knowledge in silly threads like this.  Sometimes you just have to nod your head, get off your keyboard and make a note to validate it yourself some day rather than argue with the person that actually knows something you don't seem to know.

Truly, no man ever flies so high as when hoisted aloft by his own petard.  The world would be much less interesting without your wisdom to keep us all in our lane.  Collectively, would the IQ and EQ be higher?   Yes, without question.  But interesting and entertaining? No.  The loss would be immeasurable.  Like the weight of the hair on the reproductive organs of a member of the family of Culicidae.   

Edited May 22 by NPVWhiz
I originally wrote “balls of a gnat” but don’t want to be sanctioned.

[clevited]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

I’m learning!
 

We believe the data only when it supports our opinion (say like driving distance by the tour leader has remained relatively flat for 20 years - see Hank kuehne and Rory.)

 

but when data conflicts with our opinion (age related decline of speed and power output amongst elite athletes age - early 20s to 40s)  we say that’s not right, I used my noggin!  Trust me over the numbers.

 

im learning, thank you for clarifying.

The sarcasm is much appreciated.  Kidding aside, you do need to learn.  Analyze data in context and with variables considered and you will come to the same conclusions anyone that obsesses about this subject and has a naturally analytical and problem solving mind does.

[chisag]

Just now, clevited said:

 

Lol.  I will again teach you something.  Some people have researched and read, and watched documentaries, videos etc etc etc, and learned a TON over many years and this results in some conclusions based on logic and reason.  As I have said before, it is impossible to regurgitate such knowledge in silly threads like this.  Sometimes you just have to nod your head, get off your keyboard and make a note to validate it yourself some day rather than argue with the person that actually knows something you don't seem to know.

 

 

... And of course the very core of any social media is stating opinions or even facts that apply to them but not others. Swinging at 130mph is what I would call statistically insignificant because it has to be something like .0001% of everyone that has played the game. I usually hear faster players say "anyone can increase their swing speed" simply because they could. I taught full time for over 5 years and it just ain't so. I played QB in college so it's like saying anyone can play QB if they put in the time and work. But we all know that isn't true and there are certain attributes and physical gifts needed to play QB at a high level. Just like swinging 120 is unattainable for almost all, let alone 130. I would also suggest you would never have swung a persimmon driver with a rubber band wound balata ball at 120 let alone 130 because the slightest miss would curve the ball off the course. Your opinion is colored by your own experience, as it should be, but you might find it shocking that in the 1990's when the ProV1 came out, they didn't need a high speed camera or fractions from a LM to know they were spinning the ball too much, not enough or just right by looking at the ball flight and measuring the distance. Yea, us old timers could measure distance back in the 90's without a rangefinder or LM. 😉

[clevited]

1 minute ago, NPVWhiz said:

Truly, no man ever flies so high as when hoisted aloft by his own petard.  The world would be much less interesting without your wisdom to keep us all in our lane.  Collectively, would the IQ and EQ be higher?   Yes, without question.  But interesting and entertaining? No.  The loss would be immeasurable.  Like the weight of the hair on the balls of a gnat.  

 

If I had some title of Golf Analytics Expert, would that change your mind?  I might as well have that title.  Point is, don't assume everyone on the internet is as equally ignorant as another about a subject.  

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

If I had some title of Golf Analytics Expert, would that change your mind?  I might as well have that title.  Point is, don't assume everyone on the internet is as equally ignorant as another about a subject.  

It’s depends - is the title self appointed or is it credentials provided by credible organization and earned through displaying core competency’s ?

Edited May 22 by Pnwpingi210

[NPVWhiz]

Nope.  I’d never buy the “analytics” part conjoined with the “expert” part.  Your bedside manner makes it impossible for those two to co-exist.  Besides, I never assume anyone on the forum is ignorant.  They usually demonstrate before I have a chance to pontificate.  

Edited May 22 by NPVWhiz

[kiwigolf72]

11 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Optimization has a LOT to do with this.  Which used to require a whole sale swing change and a lot of tinkering with lots of different clubs but can now be had off the shelf for the average player.  

 

Most have no idea how many yards they were leaving on the table back in the day with their old equipment.  You would have had to mess around with your swing and lots of clubs to get something comparable to what an adjustable driver does today.

No, you couldn't try what didn't exist.

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

It’s depends - is the title self appointed or is it credentials provided by credible organization and earned through displaying core competency’s ?

 

I mean, if thinkingplus said the world is flat, I would believe her.  She is an M.E. if memory serves me and they are very good at deducing truths from data.

[NPVWhiz]

Deduction.  Maybe review that one.  Besides, denigration is always the pauper’s choice when refutation is the ask.  

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 hours ago, clevited said:

 

Turns out my fire from the hip guess wasn't too shabby.  Adam Scott should be leaps and bounds more accurate than BD if the skill has diminished so much driving the ball far because of technology.  

 

Pro tip, shorter equipment like the woods of old are actually MUCH easier to keep in the fairway.  The shorter you are hitting it due to lower COR, shorter club length and unoptimized spin means more fairways hit.  The further you hit it, even with the modern day stuff, the MORE precise you have to be to keep it in or around the short grass.  You should know this.

 

Clubhead speed 2021

 

Driving Accuracy 2021

 

 

Edit:  Its seems as though Adam Scott is advocating for gear to put him out of a job.

Why did you use 3 year old data with someone that’s not on tour anymore. And who I have been assured geared back some, diminishing returns and all that.

Arguing against your own interests is disqualifying and arguing for them is also disqualifying. Interesting.

Edited May 22 by TLUBulldogGolf

[gvogel]

25 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I mean, if thinkingplus said the world is flat, I would believe her.  She is an M.E. if memory serves me and they are very good at deducing truths from data.

I am unlearned.  What is an M.E?

[ThinkingPlus]

41 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I mean, if thinkingplus said the world is flat, I would believe her.  She is an M.E. if memory serves me and they are very good at deducing truths from data.

No. Just physics and math.

[Golfnutgalen]

20 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Why did you use 3 year old data with someone that’s not on tour anymore. And who I have been assured geared back some, diminishing returns and all that.

Arguing against your own interests is disqualifying and arguing for them is also disqualifying. Interesting.

 

And Adam Scott is hitting 64.98% of his fairways this season, his best ever.

--------------

 

But nobody is even arguing about driving accuracy either, so it's a moot point either way. 

[ThinkingPlus]

19 minutes ago, gvogel said:

I am unlearned.  What is an M.E?

Mechanical Engineer

[gvogel]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Mechanical Engineer

Thank you.

 

By the way, I have a few old SMT t-shirts that say, "Swing hard in case you hit it."  I'm still trying.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, gvogel said:

Thank you.

 

By the way, I have a few old SMT t-shirts that say, "Swing hard in case you hit it."  I'm still trying.

Played SMT heads for awhile. Some were very good.