USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Simpsonia]

8 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

It’s relevant cause no tour professional or amateur is choosing to play a 15-20 yr old driver because is gives them the best chance of shoot their best score.    If we all agree on that then let’s stop arguing there’s not much difference between a 2005 head and 2023 head.

 

Well the amount of similarity between a 2005 head and a 2023 head is going to depend on the skill of the user. You've admitted yourself that on a perfect centered strike that there is no real difference (given COR, MOI, and all other equipment rules). The only real difference comes across the face that's not a center-strike. So, the difference between the two heads absolutely depends on how much and how often the particular user mishits the driver. There's a massive difference between average face strike location between the average golfer and a PGAT player, no? 

Edited May 24 by Simpsonia

[Pnwpingi210]

9 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

Well it amount of similarity between a 2005 head and a 2023 head is going to depend on the skill of the user. You've admitted yourself that on a perfect centered strike that there is no real difference (given COR, MOI, and all other equipment rules). The only real difference comes across the face that's not a center-strike. So, the difference between the two heads absolutely depends on how much and how often the particular user mishits the driver. There's a massive difference between average face strike location between the average golfer and a PGAT player, no? 

Sure.  But even a tour pro doesn’t hit the center of the face every strike during tournament play, which is why they too play the current recent model drivers.

 

There aren’t any tournament footspray videos  showing impact locations, but if you watch professional golf you will see high speed slow mo videos of pros missing the center of the face every single tournament.  It happens.  Not as much or as it happens to amatuers but it happens enough that there impact is well…impacted 🙂
 

edit - I’m dropping this.  You just arguing to argue.  I concede your point and let’s move on.  Celebrate yourself.

Edited May 24 by Pnwpingi210

[ThinkingPlus]

32 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

That all makes sense.

 

So as long as you could play a current shaft, you would play a mid 2000s head.  Do you?  
 

Ill add that my bias in this is I was professionally fit  in 2003-5 and struggled off the tee, less so than in 90’s -2003 but still driver was the cause of most of my terrible rounds.  Took a break from playing golf regularly until about 2015.  Got fit professionally in 2017 and driver became the best club in my bag( I’ve upgrade 3 times since then and have seen dispersion shrink each time)  I’m truly shocked what I get away with.  I think higher speed players benefit exponentially with the technology over the last 10 years in drivers faces and that maybe why some of this is hard to believe cause it might not have helped others the same.  Strictly my anecdotal experience and I don’t have any meta data to support)

I was fit for driver and 3W at Club Champion a few year's ago. My dispersion and distance with driver are relatively unchanged on my better swings. It had gotten difficult to make good swings with my previous driver because the shaft was too heavy and a little too stiff.

 

The 3 wood was a big upgrade. Better shaft and adjustable head I play at a strong 4 wood loft (basically playing a frankenwood). I elevate better and am getting better consistency. Actually went this route for a shot on a course, where I was a member, that doesn't exist anymore. Go figure.

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, ThinkingPlus said:

I was fit for driver and 3W at Club Champion a few year's ago. My dispersion and distance with driver are relatively unchanged on my better swings. It had gotten difficult to make good swings with my previous driver because the shaft was too heavy and a little too stiff.

 

The 3 wood was a big upgrade. Better shaft and adjustable head I play at a strong 4 wood loft (basically playing a frankenwood). I elevate better and am getting better consistency. Actually went this route for a shot on a course, where I was a member, that doesn't exist anymore. Go figure.

Yup good swing are good swings.  It’s the bad swing the modern equipment has helped.

 

Fairway metals are such a unique club to the player.  For some it’s a tee club, for some it’s a Swiss Army knife.  It takes a while to find the right one, but when you do you know it.

 

thanks for sharing.

[ThinkingPlus]

16 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Yup good swing are good swings.  It’s the bad swing the modern equipment has helped.

 

Fairway metals are such a unique club to the player.  For some it’s a tee club, for some it’s a Swiss Army knife.  It takes a while to find the right one, but when you do you know it.

 

thanks for sharing.

My bad swings still produce bad results and driver is still the hardest club in my bag to hit. I only hit driver when I have to or have a safe place to miss. I use driver 7-8/14 times currently playing white (~5800 yards) tees at the local muni.

[clevited]

I feel we need to remember some things. Drivers today have longer shafts than they used to.  Forgiveness is most often with ball speed rather than direction (in general).  Drivers are the lowest loft clubs making spin axis the most potentially extreme.   Amateurs tend to have wacky club paths, low points and face angles at impact.  460 ccs isn't working magic on anyone like that.  It will however mildly help better players but not the to extent that Adam Scott or the like makes it sound like. Back in the day. You miss hit it a little you were still in play.  Today, swinging as fast as these guys do, it's even more of a liability to miss hit a little unless you compensate for it given your tendencies.  You go further into the crap when you get it wrong so you better plan your miss well which most of these guys do.  That is as much a skill as it is to swing fast.

 

Just to add before someone misunderstands and tries to start something again, older stuff was less of a liability with slight miss hits due to lower cor and smaller sweet spots.  So swinging fast with the old stuff would still be the game plan if we hypothetically rolled back to it today.

Edited May 24 by clevited

[Archimedes65]

Don’t look now but a 90 year old country club course that only plays 7,290 yards is presenting a decent challenge for the pros so far this week thanks to firm fairways and greens and a little bit of rough and hazards thrown in.  Weird.  I expected they’d just be tearing up a course like this with those cheater drivers and magic golf balls.

[Archimedes65]

12 minutes ago, clevited said:

I feel we need to remember some things. Drivers today have longer shafts than they used to.  Forgiveness is most often with ball speed rather than direction (in general).  Drivers are the lowest loft clubs making spin axis the most potentially extreme.   Amateurs tend to have wacky club paths, low points and face angles at impact.  460 ccs isn't working magic on anyone like that.  It will however mildly help better players but not the to extent that Adam Scott or the like makes it sound like. Back in the day. You miss hit it a little you were still in play.  Today, swinging as fast as these guys do, it's even more of a liability to miss hit a little unless you compensate for it given your tendencies.  You go further into the crap when you get it wrong so you better plan your miss well which most of these guys do.  That is as much a skill as it is to swing fast.

 

Just to add before someone misunderstands and tries to start something again, older stuff was less of a liability with slight miss hits due to lower cor and smaller sweet spots.  So swinging fast with the old stuff would still be the game plan if we hypothetically rolled back to it today.

 

100% agree.  I played nine holes yesterday and was driving the ball really well.  On our par 5 ninth, I crushed my drive, had that beautiful feeling where I hit near the center and transfer max energy to the ball.  But I could feel that I had broken down my left arm just a hair through impact.  Just a hair.  The ball flight was a nice long high draw…that turned into a nice long high hook and wound up 20 yards left of the fairway in the trees.  It was not a horrific swing by any means but the penalty was pretty severe.  I do think drivers are more forgiving today, but they don’t magically make everyone a good driver of the golf ball or cover up even moderate mistakes in a swing.  Honestly, of the different people that I play with, there are only a couple guys that I would even call a really good driver of the golf ball, I.e. decent distance and hits at least 2/3rd of their fairways.  Driving is still a challenge for most people, even with these new magic clubs.

[Golfnutgalen]

 

 

Nobody's going to say this is a perfect test. But the obvious conclusion is that misshits on old clubs are severely punished in comparison to the modern drivers. 

 

Edited May 24 by Golfnutgalen

[clevited]

5 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

 

Nobody's going to say this is a perfect test. But the obvious conclusion is that misshits on old clubs are severely punished in comparison to the modern drivers. 

 

 

This illustrates my point.   Look how wide the oval is for the sim and yet similar distances.  Look how long the oldest driver dispersion is rather than wide.  

 

Also, notice how the old R11 is kinda the best of both worlds.

 

Each club feels different, each club's center of mass is in a different location, each shaft might be different (Idk didn't watch the whole video yet but I've seen a ton of these).   Each of these probably have different lofts too unless they measured them and showed they match.  These are the imperfections you eluded to.  

 

 

[Archimedes65]

19 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

 

Nobody's going to say this is a perfect test. But the obvious conclusion is that misshits on old clubs are severely punished in comparison to the modern drivers. 

 

 

Directionally interesting, but this would be great if it was Iron Byron programmed to make identical mis hits with the same club speed, not a dude in a simulator who knows what club he’s being handed.  It’s interesting that the side to side dispersion doesn’t seem much different (in fact the newest club had the widest dispersion of the three), it’s simply consistency of distance.  That’s consistent with my experience moving from the old technology to the new.

 

 

Edited May 24 by Archimedes65

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

Don’t look now but a 90 year old country club course that only plays 7,290 yards is presenting a decent challenge for the pros so far this week thanks to firm fairways and greens and a little bit of rough and hazards thrown in.  Weird.  I expected they’d just be tearing up a course like this with those cheater drivers and magic golf balls.

Only? Have you read the thread? Do you know what it played last year and what happened since then?

Edited May 24 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Archimedes65]

5 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Only? Have you read the thread?

 

Have I read all 13,330 posts over 443 pages of this thread?  No, I must admit that I have not read the entire thread.

 

Did I miss a previous discussion about Colonial or are you alluding to the discussion about the fact that the ball is mostly an issue with the old line country clubs that only play to 6,400-6,800 yards-ish?  If it’s the latter, I’ve already made my comments on that nonsense, which I’m surprised you missed if you’ve read the thread. 

[Archimedes65]

19 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Wine cellar?

 

I can put them in a guitar cabinet for humidity control, but I wonder if golf balls lose compression over the long term due to changes in barometric pressure.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Have I read all 13,330 posts over 443 pages of this thread?  No, I must admit that I have not read the entire thread.

 

Did I miss a previous discussion about Colonial or are you alluding to the discussion about the fact that the ball is mostly an issue with the old line country clubs that only play to 6,400-6,800 yards-ish?  If it’s the latter, I’ve already made my comments on that nonsense, which I’m surprised you missed if you’ve read the thread. 

 

I guess you are considering 7290 yards short, which given the time of year it probably still does play a little short. It is a couple hundred yards longer than last year, I don't think they are playing it quite to the full yardage per data golf. But you are celebrating a course doing what we have been saying needs to be done to offer a 'suitable' challenge. 

[ThinkingPlus]

8 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

I can put them in a guitar cabinet for humidity control, but I wonder if golf balls lose compression over the long term due to changes in barometric pressure.

Modern solid core balls are largely immune to environmental conditions with the possible exception of temperature. Also not a good idea to submerge them in water for a lengthy period of time.

[Golfnutgalen]

2 hours ago, clevited said:

 

This illustrates my point.   Look how wide the oval is for the sim and yet similar distances.  Look how long the oldest driver dispersion is rather than wide.  

 

Also, notice how the old R11 is kinda the best of both worlds.

 

Each club feels different, each club's center of mass is in a different location, each shaft might be different (Idk didn't watch the whole video yet but I've seen a ton of these).   Each of these probably have different lofts too unless they measured them and showed they match.  These are the imperfections you eluded to.  

 

The sim was by far the most consistent in distance. That is literally the definition of forgiveness across the face.

 

Don't look at the ovals, look at the actual dots.

 

It was also 30 yards longer than the oldest driver (on average) and 12.5 yards longer than the R11. 

[clevited]

37 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

The sim was by far the most consistent in distance. That is literally the definition of forgiveness across the face.

 

Don't look at the ovals, look at the actual dots.

 

It was also 30 yards longer than the oldest driver (on average) and 12.5 yards longer than the R11. 

 

Did you read my post? Lol, I know this stuff.

[kiwigolf72]

On 5/25/2024 at 5:59 AM, clevited said:

I feel we need to remember some things. Drivers today have longer shafts than they used to.  Forgiveness is most often with ball speed rather than direction (in general).  Drivers are the lowest loft clubs making spin axis the most potentially extreme.   Amateurs tend to have wacky club paths, low points and face angles at impact.  460 ccs isn't working magic on anyone like that.  It will however mildly help better players but not the to extent that Adam Scott or the like makes it sound like. Back in the day. You miss hit it a little you were still in play.  Today, swinging as fast as these guys do, it's even more of a liability to miss hit a little unless you compensate for it given your tendencies.  You go further into the crap when you get it wrong so you better plan your miss well which most of these guys do.  That is as much a skill as it is to swing fast.

 

Just to add before someone misunderstands and tries to start something again, older stuff was less of a liability with slight miss hits due to lower cor and smaller sweet spots.  So swinging fast with the old stuff would still be the game plan if we hypothetically rolled back to it today.

When is "back in the day " ?

[maamold]

3 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

When is "back in the day " ?

Don't bother asking. Anti-Rollbackers can't recall that golf equipment and the game of golf existed pre-2000.

[kiwigolf72]

30 minutes ago, maamold said:

Don't bother asking. Anti-Rollbackers can't recall that golf equipment and the game of golf existed pre-2000.

30 minutes ago, maamold said:

Don't bother asking. Anti-Rollbackers can't recall that golf equipment and the game of golf existed pre-2000

As a junior many many years ago(1979/80ish) I acquired a brand new Taylor made original 1. It was about the size of a modern day 5 wood.

The old guys in the club who all played with persimmon thought it was a great joke that I had a metal driver, how times have changed.

[Archimedes65]

14 hours ago, maamold said:

Don't bother asking. Anti-Rollbackers can't recall that golf equipment and the game of golf existed pre-2000.

 

C’mon, we remember those days.  How could we forget a time when women and minorities weren’t even allowed into many of the old private clubs that we’re trying to save with this rollback?

[kiwigolf72]

37 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

C’mon, we remember those days.  How could we forget a time when women and minorities weren’t even allowed into many of the old private clubs that we’re trying to save with this rollback?

golf is played outside of the US of A

[Archimedes65]

2 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

golf is played outside of the US of A

 

The rollback is being led by the US(G) of A…

 

But it’s irrelevant to my comment and your response is the very definition of a straw man argument.  Which seems to be most of the posts in this thread.

 

I was merely responding to a snarky post with a snarky post.

[kiwigolf72]

22 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

The rollback is being led by the US(G) of A…

 

But it’s irrelevant to my comment and your response is the very definition of a straw man argument.  Which seems to be most of the posts in this thread.

 

I was merely responding to a snarky post with a snarky post.

I don't even know what a straw man argument is, you referenced social problems your country has and then connected it to golf pre 2000. That might be your memory of golf pre 2000 its not mine.

 

Edited May 26 by kiwigolf72

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

C’mon, we remember those days.  How could we forget a time when women and minorities weren’t even allowed into many of the old private clubs that we’re trying to save with this rollback?

We're talking about matching equipment to existing golf courses, and you bring up a condition that even the oldest private clubs are working to rectify.  This thread has gone sideways.

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

We're talking about matching equipment to existing golf courses, and you bring up a condition that even the oldest private clubs are working to rectify.  This thread has gone sideways.

 

Not really.  This issue is primarily about those old private clubs.  A small group of amateur overlords at the USGA and R&A are trying to protect mostly older, private courses, at the expense of everybody else.  I don’t see how commenting on the history of those very clubs is irrelevant to the discussion.  BTW, I wasn’t really trying to make a moral point, I was simply making a joke back at a snarky post.

[Pnwpingi210]

5 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Not really.  This issue is primarily about those old private clubs.  A small group of amateur overlords at the USGA and R&A are trying to protect mostly older, private courses, at the expense of everybody else.  I don’t see how commenting on the history of those very clubs is irrelevant to the discussion.  BTW, I wasn’t really trying to make a moral point, I was simply making a joke back at a snarky post.

This is all your opinion.
 

 I’ve yet to see  any factual evidence to support the opinion that the rollback is a secret group of powerful, private club conspirators to protect the length of their course. 
 

in fairness this thead is 443 pages and I haven’t read the many of the early arguement so if it’s in there somewhere I would love to see.

Edited May 27 by Pnwpingi210

[TiScape]

On 5/21/2024 at 5:27 PM, StoutKing said:

Boom.  Mic drop

Yeah, good luck with that!!! 
 

🤪😂

 

*btw. Safe to say this thread leads GWRX by a huge margin for “confused” and “sad” emoji reactions! Have a great Memorial Day!

 And to kiwi 🥝 golf and other non US inhabitants, have a great day! 😊

[kiwigolf72]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Yeah, good luck with that!!! 
 

🤪😂

 

*btw. Safe to say this thread leads GWRX by a huge margin for “confused” and “sad” emoji reactions! Have a great Memorial Day!

 And to kiwi 🥝 golf and other non US inhabitants, have a great day! 😊

cheers bro have a great day.