USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Chunkitgood]

Even old fashioned lie, length, stiffness fitting can be counterproductive it seems to me if you correct a poor face angle by adjusting the lie to get a straight shot.  Putting people with clubs that facilitate them adding loft seems common as well.

 

Pretty much can be said (I.e., that is counterproductive) to insist on a certain set of static fundamentals.

 

It seems clear that any advances in either technique or equipment has just passed the vast majority of people by.  They still slice to start, then learn to pull, then learn to hit up on the ball so that it goes relatively straight and high.  Some few learn to come from the inside and hook.  What equipment they use or how far a well hit ball will go (which they will never experience) is just not very important.

[smashdn]

Fair warning, anecdotal evidence coming your way.  Turn away now if that is going to ruffle your feathers.

 

Last evening, five man scramble at our club.  Second hole is 375 from the blue tees (second farthest back you can go and where the scramble plays from, unless you are 65+ or a lady).  We started on hole four so by the time we played number two we were all well warmed up.  I was playing with a guy and his two sons and an older member.  So four out of the five of us going from the blues.  One of the sons is around two years younger than me so mid to upper 30's.  Not sure on his younger son but guessing early/mid 30's as well.  Dad is late 50's guessing.

 

All four of us pipe our drives.  And there were four balls (including the older guy who teed off from the gold tees after us) more or less in a line across the fairway, maybe 5 yards distance separating them.  I wanted to know how far I drove it because I hit it pretty well.  I shot it to the pin from my ball and it was a 297 yard drive.  Picked those four balls up and drove forward about 20 yards.  Shot the pin and had 56 yards left.  375-56= 319 yard drive.  Hole is flat and pin was just beyond halfway back on the green.

 

So again, anecdotally my evidence.  Though some want to argue that there aren't many people driving the ball that far.  I got randomly put into a fivesome in a scramble where myself, a 39 year old desk jockey who was playing my second round of the year, a mid 30's guy, and his dad probably late 50's construction worker, all drove the ball right around 300 yards.  And then were outdriven by his older son by 20 yards who I think does residential construction.

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

Fair warning, anecdotal evidence coming your way.  Turn away now if that is going to ruffle your feathers.

 

Last evening, five man scramble at our club.  Second hole is 375 from the blue tees (second farthest back you can go and where the scramble plays from, unless you are 65+ or a lady).  We started on hole four so by the time we played number two we were all well warmed up.  I was playing with a guy and his two sons and an older member.  So four out of the five of us going from the blues.  One of the sons is around two years younger than me so mid to upper 30's.  Not sure on his younger son but guessing early/mid 30's as well.  Dad is late 50's guessing.

 

All four of us pipe our drives.  And there were four balls (including the older guy who teed off from the gold tees after us) more or less in a line across the fairway, maybe 5 yards distance separating them.  I wanted to know how far I drove it because I hit it pretty well.  I shot it to the pin from my ball and it was a 297 yard drive.  Picked those four balls up and drove forward about 20 yards.  Shot the pin and had 56 yards left.  375-56= 319 yard drive.  Hole is flat and pin was just beyond halfway back on the green.

 

So again, anecdotally my evidence.  Though some want to argue that there aren't many people driving the ball that far.  I got randomly put into a fivesome in a scramble where myself, a 39 year old desk jockey who was playing my second round of the year, a mid 30's guy, and his dad probably late 50's construction worker, all drove the ball right around 300 yards.  And then were outdriven by his older son by 20 yards who I think does residential construction.

 

And what were all of your indexes? If I recall, you play at a fully private club. You can at least recognize the potential skew/bias in belonging to and playing most of your rounds at a private club where the members are all golf nuts who are likely far better at golf than random Joe pipefitter whom you get paired with at your local muni.

 

While I don't want to detract from what you experienced, can you also recognize and acknowledge that this is NOT what most golfers (ie those who only play municipal/public courses) experience? For my own anecdotal evidence, I only play public/municipal courses, and in my last 50 or so rounds I've only been paired with a rando who has hit over ~270yds once. And as it happened, he was a 40 year old former D1 golfer. 

[smashdn]

33 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

And what were all of your indexes?

 

13.9, 15.3, 8.8 and 13.5.  Not sure on the older guy as I truthfully do not know his last name.

 

33 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 You can at least recognize the potential skew/bias in belonging to and playing most of your rounds at a private club where the members are all golf nuts who are likely far better at golf than random Joe pipefitter whom you get paired with at your local muni.

 

How should I feel about the rounds I play on a different course in my work league?  I get outdriven at times in it as well.  Golf leagues tend to attract people who like to play golf.  I guess I should be forming my anecdotal experiences around golfers who don't like golf and therefore don't play much golf.

 

 

Edited May 31 by smashdn

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

And what were all of your indexes? If I recall, you play at a fully private club. You can at least recognize the potential skew/bias in belonging to and playing most of your rounds at a private club where the members are all golf nuts who are likely far better at golf than random Joe pipefitter whom you get paired with at your local muni.

 

While I don't want to detract from what you experienced, can you also recognize and acknowledge that this is NOT what most golfers (ie those who only play municipal/public courses) experience? For my own anecdotal evidence, I only play public/municipal courses, and in my last 50 or so rounds I've only been paired with a rando who has hit over ~270yds once. And as it happened, he was a 40 year old former D1 golfer. 

My golfing experience coincide with yours. Smash needs to get out in the real world and experience what golf is like outside the country club.🤣 (I kid)

[GoGoErky]

9 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

My golfing experience coincide with yours. Smash needs to get out in the real world and experience what golf is like outside the country club.🤣 (I kid)

As does mine. I at times may be the longest in the group and I’m not that long. Balls speed is mid 150s.

 

Most people I’m paired with are barely reaching 240 total. Occasionally I’ll be paired with someone who is equal or ahead of me. The number of 300 drives I’ve seen in random pairings is unde double digits. I play alot of courses that are priced above $100 for weekend tee times. I hit the range before a round and don’t see many on the range hitting 300 yard drives. 

[bekgolf]

6 hours ago, smashdn said:

Fair warning, anecdotal evidence coming your way.  Turn away now if that is going to ruffle your feathers.

 

Last evening, five man scramble at our club.  Second hole is 375 from the blue tees (second farthest back you can go and where the scramble plays from, unless you are 65+ or a lady).  We started on hole four so by the time we played number two we were all well warmed up.  I was playing with a guy and his two sons and an older member.  So four out of the five of us going from the blues.  One of the sons is around two years younger than me so mid to upper 30's.  Not sure on his younger son but guessing early/mid 30's as well.  Dad is late 50's guessing.

 

All four of us pipe our drives.  And there were four balls (including the older guy who teed off from the gold tees after us) more or less in a line across the fairway, maybe 5 yards distance separating them.  I wanted to know how far I drove it because I hit it pretty well.  I shot it to the pin from my ball and it was a 297 yard drive.  Picked those four balls up and drove forward about 20 yards.  Shot the pin and had 56 yards left.  375-56= 319 yard drive.  Hole is flat and pin was just beyond halfway back on the green.

 

So again, anecdotally my evidence.  Though some want to argue that there aren't many people driving the ball that far.  I got randomly put into a fivesome in a scramble where myself, a 39 year old desk jockey who was playing my second round of the year, a mid 30's guy, and his dad probably late 50's construction worker, all drove the ball right around 300 yards.  And then were outdriven by his older son by 20 yards who I think does residential construction.

 

 

All I get from that is a WRX humble brag.  Lol.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bekgolf said:

 

 

All I get from that is a WRX humble brag.  Lol.

 

The being neck and neck with a guy 20 years older than me, the being outdriven by 20 yards or the 13.9 part?

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

I play alot of courses that are priced above $100 for weekend tee times. I hit the range before a round and don’t see many on the range hitting 300 yard drives. 

 

That sounds more like a humble brag to me.

[bekgolf]

13 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

The being neck and neck with a guy 20 years older than me, the being outdriven by 20 yards or the 13.9 part?

 

It was meant in good fun.  Seriously though a 297 yard drive down the middle is nice, I don't care who you are, lol.

[GoGoErky]

34 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

That sounds more like a humble brag to me.

Nope. I live in an area where that’s pretty much the norm but also to point out it’s not just some mini but usually where more serious golfers play. But you’re free to read it or take it however you want 

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

Nope. I live in an area where that’s pretty much the norm but also to point out it’s not just some mini but usually where more serious golfers play. But you’re free to read it or take it however you want 

I put a disclaimer on my post and it still ruffled feathers.

 

I just need to understand that some people's anecdotes are less anecdotal than my own.  I am living and playing in some Lake Wobegon world in podunk KY.

[Archimedes65]

7 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

13.9, 15.3, 8.8 and 13.5.  Not sure on the older guy as I truthfully do not know his last name.

 

 

How should I feel about the rounds I play on a different course in my work league?  I get outdriven at times in it as well.  Golf leagues tend to attract people who like to play golf.  I guess I should be forming my anecdotal experiences around golfers who don't like golf and therefore don't play much golf.

 

 

 

No offense, but unless you all routinely pipe it 285+, you didn’t all drive the ball 300-320 on a level, non wind aided drive.  You either got the yardage wrong, there was a Mighty Wind (tm) behind you, or you hit the lottery and all hit the drives of your life.  Not trying to rip on you, but I’ve made the mistake and gotten the yardage wrong before.  I’m a 4 and a pretty big hitter and I’ve only crossed the 295 mark a few times in absolutely perfect conditions (i.e., wind at my back or fairway roll, etc.)

 

The fact that four guys that average about a 13 handicap all drove it 300 tells me that you probably got the yardage wrong, possibly the tees weren’t at the marker, or the wind was insane.  I’ve played hundreds of rounds of golf with random people on dozens of courses, including many long, low handicap players.  The only time I’ve ever seen even two drives in the 300 range on a single tee box were two massively long scratch/+ golfers that I played with.

 

Edited May 31 by Archimedes65

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

I put a disclaimer on my post and it still ruffled feathers.

 

I just need to understand that some people's anecdotes are less anecdotal than my own.  I am living and playing in some Lake Wobegon world in podunk KY.

It's just strange that over half the PGAT don't hit their tee ball 297 yards yet most everyone at your club has elite PGAT distance. I'll take your word for it though....😃 

[Archimedes65]

19 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

It's just strange that over half the PGAT don't hit their tee ball 297 yards yet most everyone at your club has elite PGAT distance. I'll take your word for it though....😃 

 

There’s zero chance that four 10+ handicaps drove the ball anywhere near 300 yards.  A double digit handicap averages less than 230 off the tee.  They don’t magically poke one out there 300, much less four of them off one tee box.  I’m a 4 index that Trackman says my average total driving distance is low 270s, and I’ve driven the ball over 300 yards exactly one time in 30+ years of golfing.  And that was jumping out of my shoes, perfect contact, level fairway, with wind at my back. I don’t think the poster is lying, I just think he got the yardages wrong, which is easy to do.

[clevited]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

There’s zero chance that four 10+ handicaps drove the ball anywhere near 300 yards.  A double digit handicap averages less than 230 off the tee.  They don’t magically poke one out there 300, much less four of them off one tee box.  I’m a 4 index that Trackman says my average total driving distance is low 270s, and I’ve driven the ball over 300 yards exactly one time in 30+ years of golfing.  And that was jumping out of my shoes, perfect contact, level fairway, with wind at my back. I don’t think the poster is lying, I just think he got the yardages wrong, which is easy to do.

 

They exist, but are rare.  I used to be one, and could become one again if my short game doesn't come back to me soon.

[smashdn]

On 5/31/2024 at 7:05 PM, Archimedes65 said:

 

There’s zero chance that four 10+ handicaps drove the ball anywhere near 300 yards.  A double digit handicap averages less than 230 off the tee.  They don’t magically poke one out there 300, much less four of them off one tee box.  I’m a 4 index that Trackman says my average total driving distance is low 270s, and I’ve driven the ball over 300 yards exactly one time in 30+ years of golfing.  And that was jumping out of my shoes, perfect contact, level fairway, with wind at my back. I don’t think the poster is lying, I just think he got the yardages wrong, which is easy to do.

Red and white line is 313.9.

Blue line is 56.3.

Red line is 370.  So the sign and card are off by about five yards.

 

We were all past the tree that encroaches on the right hand side (including the guy who hit from the golds).  The bushes you can barely see on both sides of the fairway as darker green dots are the "150 bushes".

 

I don't think you need to link handicap with driving distance.  Driving the ball a long way certainly helps to lower your handicap, but driving the ball a long way doesn't mean you will have a low handicap.  I think I actually hit (out of 7 "driving holes") maybe that one fairway.  Everything else was a push, slice or push-slice, except one that went straight on a dogleg left.  You'll just have to trust me on this, but being in the right hand trees or other fairway doesn't lend itself to many birdie opportunities.  Want to say my scoring average is like 88 and some change back when I was keeping it on Grint.  If I hit the fairway I have a real good chance at par.  If I don't, I have a real good chance at re-teeing.

 

I plan to play in the scramble again Thursday.  I'll keep you up to date on if anything changes driving distance wise with myself or with others I play with.

 

[Chunkitgood]

On 5/31/2024 at 10:05 AM, smashdn said:

 

13.9, 15.3, 8.8 and 13.5.  Not sure on the older guy as I truthfully do not know his last name.

 

 

How should I feel about the rounds I play on a different course in my work league?  I get outdriven at times in it as well.  Golf leagues tend to attract people who like to play golf.  I guess I should be forming my anecdotal experiences around golfers who don't like golf and therefore don't play much golf.

 

 

One of the many problems with the distance achieved by really good players is that lesser players emulate them in many ways, including playing from the blue tees when they ought not, and focusing on hitting their driver farther, instead of learning to use their irons, which would being their scores down.

[smashdn]

Just now, Chunkitgood said:

One of the many problems with the distance achieved by really good players is that lesser players emulate them in many ways, including playing from the blue tees when they ought not, and focusing on hitting their driver farther, instead of learning to use their irons, which would being their scores down.

 

One of the many problems with scrambles is the pressure to hit the bajeezus biscuits out of the ball after someone has one "in play."  Another of the many problems is having to play from where they tell you to play from in those things.  No doubt, if I had my druthers I would be up on the golds with that old dude but they made me play from the blues against everyone else.

[smashdn]

You guys distracted me from why I opened WRX back up.  That was to post this from this guy.

 

 

He was going on about how technology has leveled the playing field and you don't have to be as diligent with hitting the ball in the middle of the face of the driver to get good results out of it.

 

He went on to add the balls don't spin as much either.  "That has narrowed the field.  That has brought all of us closer together."

 

His words not mine (Golf Digest, "My Game" series, episode seven).  I am not claiming it to be a smoking gun of any kind either.  Just adding it as another perspective.

 

I think (these are my words and thoughts now) that a roll back, IF it were coupled with a requisite minimum spin characteristic, would add back in the difficulty to really winnow the wheat from the chafe, when it comes to ball striking.  

 

^That means you have to sort of feel that there needs to be a prioritization on rewarding a player's ability to deliver the club to the ball with precision.  Not everyone feels that way, I get that.  I think it really doubtful it would ever happen.

[Archimedes65]

There’s no debating that driver forgiveness has leveled the playing field a fair bit, which is a good thing IMO.  Not only has it made tournament golf more interesting to watch, it’s made the game far more fun and accessible for the average golfer.  If you asked golfers whether they’d rather use a modern driver or one from 20 years ago, I’d bet you that 99% would say that they would rather use a modern one.  I’d also bet 90% of the PGA Tour would say the same.

 

All it means for the pros is that being exceptional with your irons and your putter are now the differentiator, rather than whether you can keep an unforgiving club out of the trees.  And lets face it, many old drivers were ridiculously unforgiving.

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

Red and white line is 313.9.

Blue line is 56.3.

Red line is 370.  So the sign and card are off by about five yards.

 

We were all past the tree that encroaches on the right hand side (including the guy who hit from the golds).  The bushes you can barely see on both sides of the fairway as darker green dots are the "150 bushes".

 

I don't think you need to link handicap with driving distance.  Driving the ball a long way certainly helps to lower your handicap, but driving the ball a long way doesn't mean you will have a low handicap.  I think I actually hit (out of 7 "driving holes") maybe that one fairway.  Everything else was a push, slice or push-slice, except one that went straight on a dogleg left.  You'll just have to trust me on this, but being in the right hand trees or other fairway doesn't lend itself to many birdie opportunities.  Want to say my scoring average is like 88 and some change back when I was keeping it on Grint.  If I hit the fairway I have a real good chance at par.  If I don't, I have a real good chance at re-teeing.

 

I plan to play in the scramble again Thursday.  I'll keep you up to date on if anything changes driving distance wise with myself or with others I play with.

 

 

Again, I wasn’t trying to rain on your parade, just suggesting an error because what you described is a statistical improbability bordering on impossibility, less likely than winning the lottery.  But it could have happened and if you say it did, so be it.  I would ask what your average driving distance is though, because the only people that I’ve ever in my life seen drive the ball over 300 yards unless there was a freight train wind behind them and/or a massively elevated tee box, (landing in the fairway, rough, trees, or the parking lot), were folks that routinely drive the ball at least 260-270 yards. And the only reason I raised index is because you had four players in that range, and all four driving it 310 would be severely atypical of that handicap range.  What you describe isn’t happening commonly on golf courses.

 

And don’t go by the card.  Shoot the flag from the tee marker on the tee box and then again from your ball.

 

Edited June 3 by Archimedes65

[betarhoalphadelta]

40 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

He was going on about how technology has leveled the playing field and you don't have to be as diligent with hitting the ball in the middle of the face of the driver to get good results out of it.

 

He went on to add the balls don't spin as much either.  "That has narrowed the field.  That has brought all of us closer together."

 

 

Thing is that these things get stated, but when we looked at the correlation between various statistical categories and FEC points accrual, I think what we saw was:

 

• SG: Approach - A nearly pure ballstriking stat, which was the #1 stat correlated with FEC points
• SG: OTT - A mixed distance/ballstriking stat, which was #2
• Driving Distance - A nearly pure distance stat, which was #29

To me that means that the most accurate players (who mostly play blades with their irons--no real technology boost there) are the ones who have the most success. 

 

To me that says that the guys who hit the ball in the middle of the face with irons, also hit the ball in the middle of the face with driver, and have the most success. Whereas guys like Cam Champ who can lead in SG: OTT but isn't accurate is struggling each year to keep his card. If he has a hot week with irons and putter, he can win a tournament, but if he is his normal inaccurate self, he's missing cuts. 

[Titleist99]

44 minutes ago, smashdn said:

You guys distracted me from why I opened WRX back up.  That was to post this from this guy.

 

 

He was going on about how technology has leveled the playing field and you don't have to be as diligent with hitting the ball in the middle of the face of the driver to get good results out of it.

 

He went on to add the balls don't spin as much either.  "That has narrowed the field.  That has brought all of us closer together."

 

His words not mine (Golf Digest, "My Game" series, episode seven).  I am not claiming it to be a smoking gun of any kind either.  Just adding it as another perspective.

 

I think (these are my words and thoughts now) that a roll back, IF it were coupled with a requisite minimum spin characteristic, would add back in the difficulty to really winnow the wheat from the chafe, when it comes to ball striking.  

 

^That means you have to sort of feel that there needs to be a prioritization on rewarding a player's ability to deliver the club to the ball with precision.  Not everyone feels that way, I get that.  I think it really doubtful it would ever happen.

100%.  Bobby Jones once said and I'm paraphrasing, that Jack played a game in which he wasn't familiar. Jack Nicklaus said that Tiger played a game in which he wasn't familiar with and now tiger says (in so many words) that the current players play a game in which he's not familiar with. It's called the evolution of the golf game. Taking the game back to a time when nobody watched it is a recipe for failure.

[Titleist99]

52 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

There’s no debating that driver forgiveness has leveled the playing field a fair bit, which is a good thing IMO.  Not only has it made tournament golf more interesting to watch, it’s made the game far more fun and accessible for the average golfer.  If you asked golfers whether they’d rather use a modern driver or one from 20 years ago, I’d bet you that 99% would say that they would rather use a modern one.  I’d also bet 90% of the PGA Tour would say the same.

 

All it means for the pros is that being exceptional with your irons and your putter are now the differentiator, rather than whether you can keep an unforgiving club out of the trees.  And lets face it, many old drivers were ridiculously unforgiving.

100%.  Bobby Jones once said and I'm paraphrasing, that Jack played a game in which he wasn't familiar. Jack Nicklaus said that Tiger played a game in which he wasn't familiar with and now tiger says (in so many words) that the current players play a game in which he's not familiar with. It's called the evolution of the golf game. Taking the game back to a time when nobody watched it is a recipe for failure.

[hackeraz]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Again, I wasn’t trying to rain on your parade, just suggesting an error because what you described is a statistical improbability bordering on impossibility, less likely than winning the lottery.  But it could have happened and if you say it did, so be it.  I would ask what your average driving distance is though, because the only people that I’ve ever in my life seen drive the ball over 300 yards unless there was a freight train wind behind them and/or a massively elevated tee box, (landing in the fairway, rough, trees, or the parking lot), were folks that routinely drive the ball at least 260-270 yards. And the only reason I raised index is because you had four players in that range, and all four driving it 310 would be severely atypical of that handicap range.  What you describe isn’t happening commonly on golf courses.

 

And don’t go by the card.  Shoot the flag from the tee marker on the tee box and then again from your ball.

 

All you really need to do is spend some time on a driving range and it's pretty evident that even 260 off the tee is rare are in the amateur ranks. 

[Archimedes65]

Just now, hackeraz said:

All you really need to do is spend some time on a driving range and it's pretty evident that even 260 off the tee is rare are in the amateur ranks. 

 

100%.  There’s a guy I golf with that is always 20+ yards shorter than me, and once we having beers in the bar with some folks and someone asked how long he drove the ball and he said 260.  😂  After, spitting up my beer, I said ‘man, that must mean I’m driving it 285!   Not…’. Most people don’t realize how short they drive the ball, particularly out here where it’s cool and damp, with soft fairways most of the time.

 

The average scratch golfer drives the ball about 260.  Total driving distance.

[tiderider]

On 5/31/2024 at 2:27 PM, bekgolf said:

 

 

All I get from that is a WRX humble brag.  Lol.

we do have our standards ... 

[LeoLeo99]

On 5/31/2024 at 8:56 AM, smashdn said:

Fair warning, anecdotal evidence coming your way.  Turn away now if that is going to ruffle your feathers.

 

Last evening, five man scramble at our club.  Second hole is 375 from the blue tees (second farthest back you can go and where the scramble plays from, unless you are 65+ or a lady).  We started on hole four so by the time we played number two we were all well warmed up.  I was playing with a guy and his two sons and an older member.  So four out of the five of us going from the blues.  One of the sons is around two years younger than me so mid to upper 30's.  Not sure on his younger son but guessing early/mid 30's as well.  Dad is late 50's guessing.

 

All four of us pipe our drives.  And there were four balls (including the older guy who teed off from the gold tees after us) more or less in a line across the fairway, maybe 5 yards distance separating them.  I wanted to know how far I drove it because I hit it pretty well.  I shot it to the pin from my ball and it was a 297 yard drive.  Picked those four balls up and drove forward about 20 yards.  Shot the pin and had 56 yards left.  375-56= 319 yard drive.  Hole is flat and pin was just beyond halfway back on the green.

 

So again, anecdotally my evidence.  Though some want to argue that there aren't many people driving the ball that far.  I got randomly put into a fivesome in a scramble where myself, a 39 year old desk jockey who was playing my second round of the year, a mid 30's guy, and his dad probably late 50's construction worker, all drove the ball right around 300 yards.  And then were outdriven by his older son by 20 yards who I think does residential construction.

I got beat in my work league by one struck.  Even to +1 by a young fella using X-14 clones.  

 

So much of club fitting is done by people that don't understand data and see non-significant data as significant.  Sure, there are clubs that are better for a person's swing than others. There is no magical optimized club that is better than the rest.  In my line of work, we'd get fit three separate times and compare the data to see what makes the most sense.  I laugh when I peruse the used club ads on ebay and see a club listed at -1/4".  Is that quarter inch shorter really doing anything?

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

All it means for the pros is that being exceptional with your irons and your putter are now the differentiator, rather than whether you can keep an unforgiving club out of the trees.  And let’s face it, many old drivers were ridiculously unforgiving.

Exactly why guys like Scheffler, Morikawa and some others despite not being near the top in distance are winning. They have exceptional games all around.