How many of you release driver like Crossfield says in this video?

[Zitlow]

@MPStrat I have an idea for the next big thing. How to Snap the Clubface Square at Impact - Wow! 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Zitlow

[Zitlow]

46 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

By no means am I anti-free wheel release.

Quite the opposite. But if someone is adding loft at the bottom of the swing they might benefit from what Cono is teaching. 
 

The other thing is that if you intend to swing with speed, good luck with trying to prevent the lead wrist from going into extension. It’s going to happen automatically whether you want it to or not. You don’t need to intentionally try and cup the left wrist or flex the right wrist through impact. Although, like I’ve said, that could be helpful if you have too much shaft lean for your swing speed. A less common issue in golf. In that case this Crossfield video could be for you. 

 

Been on record time and again about manipulation not being a long term strategy. You have to learn how the forces in the swing influence responsive wrists. But at some point you either do it naturally or have to learn how to do it. Foley talks about it here too: 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoFq4_5js82/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

“For a lot of players we’ve worked with this on who are amateurs, being able to feel that they maintain the right wrist angle or keep their wrist on it, will help keep the face square and the clubhead trailing so we actually have incentive to rotate.”

I don't know, one thing leads to another but if it helps people who are too active with their arms then why not. 

[Barfolomew]

Yo HungGo Dig that Duval video chuckin the club behind him..... as a strong gripper that plays a cut

 

The Steve Pratt one's good too... flapper lol

 

Pronating is for the birds 🐦

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Barfolomew

[MPStrat]

7 hours ago, Zitlow said:

I don't know, one thing leads to another but if it helps people who are too active with their arms then why not. 

Many amateurs dump the right wrist angle to square the face which creates a lot of issues. They certainly don’t need more trail wrist flexion to fix that. That would be silly.

 

Amateurs in general supinate the lead arm much less and much later than pros. Pros have a lot  more lead forearm rotation than most ams think they do. Ams think that’s “rolling the wrists” and they shouldn’t do that. If they frequent this forum they probably have that belief.

 

The video below is pretty timely. Really good example of what I’m talking about. Starts at 5:00.

 

 

 

 

[argee1977]

Think that's the kind of thing that started my handle dragging, and my direction more right. It helps a certain type of person calm down something in their swing, but as per the original video by Crossfield and the other videos, it can harm other golfers.

 

It's why lessons are so important, get a professional to work out what needs fixing and in what order, then you can work out the best 'feel' for it, youtube content is helpful, but only in the right order.

[GoTime]

20 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Handle-dragger here, and am focusing on releasing the club head into the ball (from what feels like club-parallel and down). The idea of "whipping the bb out of the shaft" that AMG has discussed in a video has been really helpful.

 

Can you link/post the amg vid?

[KMeloney]

2 hours ago, GoTime said:

 

Can you link/post the amg vid?

 

I can't locate it at the moment, but I'll keep an eye out for it and will post it.

[MK7Golf21]

yeah, I would also say be careful that you aren't flipping a bit through impact using these feelings. Years back I tried a release style like Crossfield is promoting and I played some good golf. However, I developed some tennis elbow in my right arm basically from it being more active through the hit, I have video from back then and I was scooping a bit through impact. Have to make sure that you aren't scooping through impact as it's not good for your right arm. I fixed that and my tennis elbow went away but slowly.

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, argee1977 said:

Think that's the kind of thing that started my handle dragging, and my direction more right. It helps a certain type of person calm down something in their swing, but as per the original video by Crossfield and the other videos, it can harm other golfers.

 

It's why lessons are so important, get a professional to work out what needs fixing and in what order, then you can work out the best 'feel' for it, youtube content is helpful, but only in the right order.

Very much agree. Without proper knowledge and guidance, anything can get overdone. 

[Zitlow]

9 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Many amateurs dump the right wrist angle to square the face which creates a lot of issues. They certainly don’t need more trail wrist flexion to fix that. That would be silly.

 

Amateurs in general supinate the lead arm much less and much later than pros. Pros have a lot  more lead forearm rotation than most ams think they do. Ams think that’s “rolling the wrists” and they shouldn’t do that. If they frequent this forum they probably have that belief.

 

The video below is pretty timely. Really good example of what I’m talking about. Starts at 5:00.

 

 

 

 

That's interesting, I'd come over the top like crazy and smother hook the ball if I did that. 

 

When I used to think about squaring the face I hit a lot of fat shots. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:44 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Every tour player but Berger measured a few years ago essentially do what he’s saying.

Seems to me a pro release would sure be handy…if you have a pro body action

 

I suspect that if you do have a pro body action, you’ll be able to figure out the release.

 

The real question is do you want or need a different release for the driver?

[MPStrat]

39 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

That's interesting, I'd come over the top like crazy and smother hook the ball if I did that. 

Doing this move is the proper way to reduce dynamic loft at impact. That’s assuming reducing dynamic loft is something that is needed in a swing. This torque does not slow down the clubhead, it is extremely powerful. 
 

Like Dana says here, you have to lean the shaft enough to be able to support it. If you already have adequate shaft lean for your swing speed and desired ball flight, this move would be counterproductive. 
 

If someone’s driver swing speed is under 90 mph they will need less shaft lean than someone who swings 110 or 115 or 120 and so forth. 

 

Again, this goes back to how many amateurs need more shaft lean vs how many need less.

 

There are some who fall into both categories. 

 

[MPStrat]

Here is John Dunnigan talking about how based on his experience teaching amateur golfers, most need what Dana is teaching his student. He says that yes, pros go into extension well after impact, but that’s not something most amateurs should try to do. He says “save that for the pros”. I would say “save that for the handle draggers” 
 

[Elkhair]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Here is John Dunnigan talking about how based on his experience teaching amateur golfers, most need what Dana is teaching his student. He says that yes, pros go into extension well after impact, but that’s not something most amateurs should try to do. He says “save that for the pros”. I would say “save that for the handle draggers” 
 

"Pro's go into extension well after impact?"

 

Where did this information come from. Is pretty clear from the data that pros start extending their wrists well before impact. 

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, Elkhair said:

"Pro's go into extension well after impact?"

 

Where did this information come from. Is pretty clear from the data that pros start extending their wrists well before impact. 

The majority of pros lead wrists are in flexion until well after impact. Many amateurs reach actual extension to soon and often before impact. 
 

If a golfer is reaching extension too early, the videos by Como, Dana and Dunnigan might apply to them. 
 

If a golfer is in flexion too long the Crossfield video might apply to them. 

[Golfbeat]

13 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Many amateurs dump the right wrist angle to square the face which creates a lot of issues. They certainly don’t need more trail wrist flexion to fix that. That would be silly.

 

Amateurs in general supinate the lead arm much less and much later than pros. Pros have a lot  more lead forearm rotation than most ams think they do. Ams think that’s “rolling the wrists” and they shouldn’t do that. If they frequent this forum they probably have that belief.

 

The video below is pretty timely. Really good example of what I’m talking about. Starts at 5:00.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a great video and many people would benefit greatly from doing exactly what the student is being taught. Elbow and hands forward and supinate that left forearm, baby! No hooks as long as the hands are forward.

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

This is a great video and many people would benefit greatly from doing exactly what the student is being taught. Elbow and hands forward and supinate that left forearm, baby! No hooks as long as the hands are forward.

Yes, the reality is that if someone is a lifelong scooper (a large percentage of amateurs, if not the majority) they can’t just flex the wrist in transition and then assume they won’t extend too early. Particularly if their intent is to throw away the right wrist angle at the bottom of the swing. That’s probably the single worst intent for a scooper. 
 

Many have no idea how much handle twist they need and that it should start well before and continue through impact. The lead wrist will move toward extension naturally without them having to try to do it. 
 

If you overdo this you could end up with too much shaft lean. If you take any single intent and grind on it for a long period of time, there is a chance it will become overdone. That’s one of the many downsides to DIY

[Pepperturbo]

I watched the above video, and heard duck hook and big slice, and came away with a photo in memory of what Crossfield says the swing release looks like for long and straight.  Let me preface, I seldom watch instructional golf videos

 

IMO Nothing is wrong with Crossfield, just that most people watch too many online teachers, looking for quick maybe free answers.  Viewers can't help but look to see if that video teaching snippet is behind their problem; while it may not apply, viewers can easily misdiagnose or subconsciously create more of a problem.

 

And let's not forget watching "various" online instructors can be tantamount to taking lessons from multiple teachers in real-time; trying to implement different solutions, worsens what ever problems may exist.  Just Sayin... 🙂

 

 

 

🙂

[iacas]

8 hours ago, MPStrat said:

The majority of pros lead wrists are in flexion until well after impact. Many amateurs reach actual extension to soon and often before impact.

 

https://hackmotion.com/scott-cowx-wrist-patterns/

 

Can you define "well after"?

 

-----

 

The downswing often involves a twist and a roll. The twist is a little bit "about the shaft" stuff, and the "roll" is the radius/ulna (forearm) rolling from pointing to the trail side to pointing out the lead side (for lack of better words), but a lot of that is semi-passive and a result of the clubhead's COM relative to the hand path.

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

https://hackmotion.com/scott-cowx-wrist-patterns/

 

Can you define "well after"?

 

-----

 

The downswing often involves a twist and a roll. The twist is a little bit "about the shaft" stuff, and the "roll" is the radius/ulna (forearm) rolling from pointing to the trail side to pointing out the lead side (for lack of better words), but a lot of that is semi-passive and a result of the clubhead's COM relative to the hand path.

 

 

Option A (Tommy Fleetwood).. “the move toward extension after impact is less rapid creating a stable dynamic loft” as Cowx says is an accurate way of describing it. 

 

From the Cowx article:

 

 

The speed of the clubhead is released more with wrist rotation rather than with wrist extension.

Notice how the green line (flexion/extension) changes relatively little during the swing and post impact. Thorbjorn Olesen still moves into flexion during the downswing, but after impact, he slowly extends the lead wrist.

Main characteristics of the pattern:

1.  The wrist extension is relatively stable throughout the swing. The move toward extension after impact is less rapid, creating a stable dynamic loft.
2. There is a lot of rotation after impact as speed is released more by wrist rotation, less by wrist extension (the purple line increases a lot).

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Option A (Tommy Fleetwood).. “the move toward extension after impact is less rapid creating a stable dynamic loft” as Cowx says is an accurate way of describing it.

 

You said "well after" impact, which I asked you to define. This just says "after" impact.

 

Also, that's one pattern.

 

22 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The speed of the clubhead is released more with wrist rotation rather than with wrist extension.

 

That does not say there is no wrist extension until "well after impact" as you said.

 

Also, again, that's one pattern. Did you scroll down more?
 

Quote

1. The lead wrist goes into flexion during backswing. Flexion then stays constant and wrist moves towards extension during release.
2. The rotation amount through impact is lower – you can see that the purple line is much flatter than for Option A. There is less rotation at impact than at address (purple line below zero at impact), which shows the player has not supinated his forearms too much.

 

 

 

Again, care to define "well after"?

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

You said "well after" impact, which I asked you to define. This just says "after" impact.

 

Also, that's one pattern.

 

 

That does not say there is no wrist extension until "well after impact" as you said.

 

Also, again, that's one pattern. Did you scroll down more?
 

 

 

Again, care to define "well after"?

Apparently the word “well” is what you don’t like. We can take that out. How about “after impact” as opposed to “scooping”

 

Cool?
 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Apparently the word “well” is what you don’t like. We can take that out. How about “after impact” as opposed to “scooping”

 

Cool?

 

Not necessarily.

 

Pattern B is moving toward extension throughout the late downswing (prior to impact). And "scooping" is not the antonym to "flexion until well after impact" (or even "flexion until well after impact").

 

9 hours ago, MPStrat said:

The majority of pros lead wrists are in flexion until well after impact. Many amateurs reach actual extension to soon and often before impact. 

 

Generally speaking… yes. My issue is mostly with the word "well" as if the least wrist flexion should be "maintained" for a long time. Some are even in extension at impact. Often those players have stronger lead hand grips, but not all.

 

I'm just not a fan of "maintaining" wrist conditions per se. They're changing all the time, and often they're changing rapidly.

[MPStrat]

Just now, iacas said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

Pattern B is moving toward extension throughout the late downswing (prior to impact). And "scooping" is not the antonym to "flexion until well after impact" (or even "flexion until well after impact").

 

 

Generally speaking… yes. My issue is mostly with the word "well" as if the least wrist flexion should be "maintained" for a long time. Some are even in extension at impact. Often those players have stronger lead hand grips, but not all.

 

I'm just not a fan of "maintaining" wrist conditions per se. They're changing all the time, and often they're changing rapidly.

I’m a fan of educating hands if they’re not doing the right thing. As you might have read in the past, I’m not a fan of holding or maintaining or over manipulating anything in the golf swing. 
 

There are always exceptions, but “moving toward extension” might be the most obvious example of passive in the golf swing. Jon Sinclair said he spent some time trying to keep the lead wrist from going into extension after impact and he could only accomplish it at slow speeds. 
 

That doesn’t mean handle draggers who have too much shaft lean can’t benefit from the Crossfield video. However, those who scoop or have too much dynamic loft won’t benefit from it, and need more or what I posted from Como, Foley, Dana and Dunnigan. 
 

[Jeselnik]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:20 AM, GungHoGolf said:

……………….

And you're right, this seems really non-intuitive and "flippy/slappy" to me. But if it helps me hit driver straighter or even get back to my old baby draw with driver (back before I "cured" my early release), I'll be thrilled. All this work on rotation and shaft lean with irons has been counter-productive to my driver swing………

Did not see this previously.  Your pivot will learn to accommodate the intent of the hands and you may need to adjust the timing of your hands intent to suit you.

 

JNIK

Edited April 11, 2023 by Jeselnik
Additional background

[Simpsonia]

The funny thing is DJ is kind of the opposite of who'd you'd want to show holding flexion through the swing. His actual HackMotion graph shows he starts losing flexion almost immediately from the top. Though he does have a momentary turn-down right before impact, this is not something that any amateurs can time correctly like he can. 

 

 

 

 

The most interesting thing for me though in his graph is how little radial deviation he gets in the backswing. His release pattern is driven almost entirely by flexion/extension and supination rather than a combination of flexion/extension with ulnar deviation. 

 

https://hackmotion.com/dustin-johnson-swing-analysis/

 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Simpsonia

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

The funny thing is DJ is kind of the opposite of who'd you'd want to show holding flexion through the swing. His actual HackMotion graph shows he starts losing flexion almost immediately from the top. Though he does have a momentary turn-down right before impact, this is not something that any amateurs can time correctly like he can. 

 

 

 

 

The most interesting thing for me though in his graph is how little radial deviation he gets in the backswing. His release pattern is driven almost entirely by flexion/extension and supination rather than a combination of flexion/extension with ulnar deviation. 

 

https://hackmotion.com/dustin-johnson-swing-analysis/

 

 

Cool stuff. I think the main point teachers like Dana and Dunnigan are making is that many if not most amateur golfers shouldn’t concern themselves with forcing their lead wrist into extension or trail wrist into flexion though impact. 

 

As pointed out by Dunnigan, the other more glaringly obvious difference between pros and ams is lead arm rotation which influences the wrists in a big way. As he said, even someone like DJ has a lot more lead arm supination compared to amateur golfers. Some ams think they have too much lead forearm rotation when in reality they don’t have anywhere near enough. 

[wagolfer7]

Curious if pros like @MonteScheinblum and @iacas would recommend amateurs using hack-motion on their own to monitor and make changes?  

 

Also does anyone know if the library in the app names the PGA players or if it's anonymous?  

 

Wonder if it's like owning your own BodiTrak.  Would be cool.  But really better to learn how to use the body correctly to create the right pressure.  

[iacas]

15 hours ago, MPStrat said:

There are always exceptions, but “moving toward extension” might be the most obvious example of passive in the golf swing.

 

I don't think anyone's said it's actively being done, have they? Have you defined "well after impact" yet?

 

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

Curious if pros like @MonteScheinblum and @iacas would recommend amateurs using hack-motion on their own to monitor and make changes?

 

I have two, and… I don't even use them all the time with students, BUT most of that is because they have no way of knowing what they're doing when they leave because they don't have their own HackMotion.

 

I've used it for my own game. I think if you're specifically working on the wrist conditions, it can be VERY helpful. I also think that it's most useful in pitching, chipping, and putting, because those motions are a little bit more about willingly controlling or giving up control, while much of the full swing… you basically have no choice. I like the HM for putting especially, pitching/chipping too.

 

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

Also does anyone know if the library in the app names the PGA players or if it's anonymous?

 

They're named.

 

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

Wonder if it's like owning your own BodiTrak.  Would be cool.  But really better to learn how to use the body correctly to create the right pressure.  

 

Uhhhh… probably more toward that. I try not to tell others what something is "valued" at financially, only value with regards to instruction, practice, or whatever, because others value money and/or golf or whatever differently.

 

But, I don't think you're going to get the HM out all the time. A lot more early on, and then to check in from time to time.

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I don't think anyone's said it's actively being done, have they?

Someone around here sells a video teaching active flexion of the trail wrist though the bottom of the swing as a swing method.