Having a lot of trouble with compression and scooping

[RXBoost]

Hello all,

I've been a long time lurker of all the great subforums, but with all the good advice being given out to other players, I figured I'd see if there's a lightbulb moment from one of you guys with my swing.

I've had basically the same swing for 20-25 years now. I shoot in the mid to high 70s with the occasional 81-82 mixed in. I hit the ball straight, and am very consistent with that. My driver is in the fairway and long enough (for now), but I have always had distance problems with my irons.  My normal PW only goes 100yards, and I hit it quite high which IMO is a result of my 'scooping'. I just don't get the compression or shaft lean that I feel like I should have.

I have been at the range every day for 3 weeks now, watching countless videos on YT from Cogorno, Chris Ryan, Malaska, Porzak, AMG and others trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.

I have started getting my hips corrected, by trying to get my right hip out of the way on the downswing, and having my left hip push away (Malaska and Porzak have great videos on this). I may not be doing it enough yet, but I "feel" like I am exaggerating it.

As you will notice from the side view, I scoop that ball, I cannot for the life of me get shaft lean. Funny thing is, I CAN get shaft lean if I am just practice swinging with no ball there. I also think I have too flat of a backswing, and I have a weird dip motion after impact and then I stand up when the follow through is almost complete.

 

 

 

[jholz]

Your swing reminds me a lot of my own. I can't say that anything I can add will be particularly helpful - others around here are much more knowledgeable than me - so take this for what it is worth.

 

What I'm seeing is....

 

1. Weight a bit too much in the toes at setup.

2. Bit too inside on the takeaway.

3. Flip or scoop comes in at impact to correct some of those initial flaws and ensure contact with the ball.

 

So, I'd look at your hip movements and balance in the swing first. Once you get that figured out, you will be in a better position to address the flip/scoop tendency.

 

My current theory is that the lead side/arm/hand have a lot to do with eliminating that tendency from your swing. YMMV.

 

Good luck and hopefully you get some more comments.

[RXBoost]

I've been trying to change that takeaway to be less inside, and even in my head it feels like it's not inside, but the video says otherwise.

 

I appreciate your reply.

[jholz]

3 hours ago, RXBoost said:

I've been trying to change that takeaway to be less inside, and even in my head it feels like it's not inside, but the video says otherwise.

 

I appreciate your reply.

 

Check out Jim Waldron's "arm swing illusion" thread. Eye opening stuff.

 

You could also check out AMG's hip movement clips. Even more eye opening stuff.

 

Good luck to you man! We are all in the same boat here!

[Valtiel]

I'm seeing what looks like a significant mismatch/bad match-up between backswing club position and lower body sequencing, i'll try to explain:



Here we see Andrew Landry in his "turn and burn" concept video next to you. The idea is that you preset all of these "on plane" angles and simply rotate into delivery with a minimum amount of compensations/redirecting of the club. The lines I drew on you show this, basically having your left arm and shaft plane perpendicular to your spine angle. The problem is that this *requires* aggressive and fast lower body action:



But the problem is you don't have any of that. Your hips are quite slow and late achieving no clearance by the time you reach impact (more on that below). For some people this isn't an issue, but for you with where your backswing currently is it's a big problem:



To be even flatter and more laid off than the plane you establish at address means *some* level of steepening has to occur (which you do), but without a proper pivot with your left side you just slide towards the target with your lower body and are forced to cast your hands from behind you, lets use your face on view to explain that:



Using Oosthuizen as a comparison here with boxes around your hips. With Louis we see a very typical bump into the trail side moving him out of the box. Some do more, many do a little less, it depends on several factors. It's a little concerning that we see basically no movement on your side with a primarily upper body move, but its not a huge deal, especially with a shorter club (Louis has a 7-iron here).

Your right arm is pretty pinned into your side here which is why your takeaway is flatter and inside, note the extra space between Louis' right arm and his body.



Up to P3 we see your lower half starting to engage more. Still within the box which is ok, but again something to keep an eye on. Louis meanwhile has stopped shifting his weight and is now turning back getting ready to recenter into the box.



This is the turning point here. Louis is gathering momentum towards his front leg as the backswing completes by shifting his lower body back into the box. You're doing a version of the same thing, which is good. You've added some pressure to that front leg which is good, it's ALL about what happens next:



Down to P6 we see where all the problems are. There are two parts to this equation; shifting into the lead side and then using that pressure to push it backwards. Louis makes one more lateral move to max out pressure on that front leg and then aggressively pushes it and his lead hip backwards, away from the ball. Note the angle of his hips and how that lead hip is more in line with his lead foot (orange line).

On your side, you just continued sliding into your front side without ever doing anything with that pressure. Your lead hip drifts well outside your lead foot and your hips basically stay square. You're missing the second half of the equation here which is using the pressure on your left side to create this rotation, and from there I want address what you said here:
 

Quote

"I have started getting my hips corrected, by trying to get my right hip out of the way on the downswing, and having my left hip push away (Malaska and Porzak have great videos on this). I may not be doing it enough yet, but I "feel" like I am exaggerating it. "

Two things here; first you don't want to think about "getting your right hip out of the way on the downswing" nearly as much as you want to be thinking about that with your LEFT hip. What you likely feel like you're exaggerating is the shift into your lead side, which you are in fact doing and arguably *over*doing, because you're simply shifting all the way into impact without the second half, the "firing back". This brings us all the way back to the beginning of the sequence and whether or not your more "centered" hip action is ideal. The purpose of shifting back slightly (like Louis does) is purely to give you the momentum to then more easily shift forward leading up to transition. Without that shift you need to be very mindful of the correct sequence because what you're doing with your lower body from P4 (top of the backswing) to P6 (pre-impact) is the same thing that Louis (and almost all pros) are doing from P3 to P4. I'll illustrate:



This is basically the same sequence of movements from the waist down. The huge difference being Louis does this as he's approaching the top of his backswing and into the very beginning stages of the downswing, and you're doing it several steps later; well into the downswing and approaching the ball. This is why the lack of a slight shift into your trail side and the general stillness of your lower half in the beginning *might* be an issue, because the delay in your lower body starting at the beginning lines up with the amount you're late at the end.

These two main elements, overall lower body sequencing and exaggerated laid off club are why you're stuck in this flip/scoop pattern, and both need to be addressed with the lower body sequence issue being the most important of the two to get right.

[RXBoost]

@ValtielThank you so much for the amazingly detailed response.  It is going to take a bit to absorb all of that, but first the lower body problem:

 

Are you suggesting that a slight lower body shift to the right foot may in turn cause my forward rotation to not be so delayed?  If that is the case, I can kind of see that - if I am just kind of practice swinging and stretching/warming up I tend to just have a slight swaying motion and then back through and I have had myself on video when doing it and my swing looks a whole lot more free, and there is actually some shaft lean.

 

What I am *trying* to do, and also feeling like I am doing with my lower body is:

1. On the backswing rotate around my pelvis, keeping about 60/40 weight on the front side but not swaying/sliding and trying to keep my right butt cheek pressed against a "wall"

2. On the downswing I am trying to rotate again around my pelvis, keeping my right butt cheek pressed against the wall, but then more or less twisting so that now my left butt cheek goes against and through the wall thereby "clearing" my right hip.

I am obviously either doing this way too late and/or not enough.

 

Any time I watch my swing on video it looks very stiff and unnatural and your comparisons make that fact even more glaring.

 

I am going to have to go back and forth with you in this thread if you are okay with that.

 

EDIT: FWIW I am using a 9i

Edited May 4, 2023 by RXBoost

[RXBoost]

Also, do you have any suggestions on what to practice in order to get the correct lower body movement/timing? It is wild to me that my sequencing is SO late in the swing.

 

When Louis is bumping back on his backswing  it looks like he is shifting weight, so is that not considered swaying?

[fore_life]

Hit driver off your knees, it will clean up a lot of the misconceptions you have about how to swing on plane and generate power 

[Valtiel]

@RXBoost No problem! And yeah it's definitely a lot to take in, hah.

I definitely think part of the problem is what you're trying to do because you're technically succeeding, but it's not the approach you want. Failing successfully as it's sometimes called, lol.
 

Quote

What I am *trying* to do, and also feeling like I am doing with my lower body is:

1. On the backswing rotate around my pelvis, keeping about 60/40 weight on the front side but not swaying/sliding and trying to keep my right butt cheek pressed against a "wall"

2. On the downswing I am trying to rotate again around my pelvis, keeping my right butt cheek pressed against the wall, but then more or less twisting so that now my left butt cheek goes against and through the wall thereby "clearing" my right hip.

1) What you're describing here is basically the "Stack and Tilt" approach which involves keeping a majority of your pressure on your front side throughout the swing. You *can* play this way, it often works well with short/mid irons, but many people struggle as the clubs get longer. Any of the notable S&T'ers on tour have been either short or crooked off the tee. This will start to get into your follow up question about sway which is a good one, so i'll address that below.
2) Keeping your right cheek against the "wall" in the downswing and any thoughts of "clearing" the right side are not good IMO. The amount of active and conscious effort needed to move the *left* side properly is such that any thoughts about what you should do with the right side are going to take away from that, which is what we're seeing in your case because there is no clearing of the left side happening at all in your video. Plus, the correct left side movements take care of the right side automatically by virtue of the fact that with a majority of your weight correctly on that lead side in the downswing and through impact, you can't really affect any movement in your right side anyway as it is comparatively unweighted and basically along for the ride, as it should be!



This is foot pressure data of Patrick Cantlay's driver swing. The bottom X-axis numbers are left/right pressure distribution and the side Y-axis numbers are heel/toe pressure respectively. Frame #1 is just after P3 in the swing, basically the middle of the backswing. We see 75% pressure on the back foot and 25% on the front, VERY typical of elite golfers with the longer clubs. Then Frame #2 shows the top of the backswing, almost perfectly 50/50 (55/45) which is that "re-centering" move we saw in Louis' gifs above. We also see the front foot weight on the toe, this is preparing for what happens in Frame #3 which shows the very first moments of downswing transition. HUGE spike of weight forward here, basically 80/20.

Now combine that with your question about Louis' initial bump outside the box in the takeaway and you're probably asking "how is this not swaying?". It's a good question, and the difference between shifting/loading and swaying is a matter of degrees and has to do with the relationship of the hips and feet:



Sway is basically defined by the hip getting outside the foot, which is a weak unbalanced position. Crossfield shows an exaggerated version of that here, and we can see Louis is still squarely over his trail foot, not outside it. We see that sway in your downswing above as your left hip gets outside your foot.

So instead of thinking about the backswing and the downswing the way you are currently, I would encourage something similar to what Malaska talks about in this video with the basic swing sequence being "slight shift -> push trail hip back -> re-center leading up to the top -> slight shift -> push lead hip back". The active movements you should be focusing on are related to pushing your hips back to create rotation, and to push them back they need weight on them.

[RXBoost]

I've watched that malaska video so many times haha. I've been trying to mimic that but I am not getting the tilt on the hips, just the front to back. Ive also got to integrate that slight bump backwards that Louis does. If I watch Tiger Woods slow mo it doesn't appear he has any bump in his backswing, so how does he make up for that?

 

[RXBoost]

This seems like a good explanation as well.

 

[RXBoost]

I have consciously tried to do a little bit more weight transfer without swaying, and while I am still not where I want to be, I do feel like there is a little bit less scoop, but man it still looks bad from the side view. On several of the shots I hit this session, I was closer to the 4th groove on the iron as far as the center of contact, as opposed to the 2nd or 3rd.

 

My lead hip is still getting too far out in front on the follow through, which I guess appears to be swaying.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by RXBoost

[fore_life]

Have you tried the flamingo drill? With a ball forward?

[GoGoErky]

Work on this

 

will help you learn proper shifting and turning 

[RXBoost]

2 hours ago, fore_life said:

Have you tried the flamingo drill? With a ball forward?

I haven't ever heard of that. Guessing it's swinging off of one foot.

[RXBoost]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 

I will check that out. I have also noticed that on the downswing, my club is getting in front of my hands, and there isnt a way to recover. I have been watching Zach Allen on YT and he's got some videos about it.

[slytown]

I agree. The flamingo drill would help. You need to get the feeling of the arms working dowm and through. Your seing still looks very scoopy because the clubead pitches out and you have no room to rotate. Work on getting the hands down in front of you with the clubead behind and then turning to your leadside, not sliding.

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, RXBoost said:

I will check that out. I have also noticed that on the downswing, my club is getting in front of my hands, and there isnt a way to recover. I have been watching Zach Allen on YT and he's got some videos about it.

If that didnt happen you wouldn’t hit the ball. You’re very flat and the club steepens and pitches out. 

[fore_life]

5 hours ago, RXBoost said:

I haven't ever heard of that. Guessing it's swinging off of one foot.

I really don’t like the Be BetterGolf guy, but here’s the drill

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7nMsmsI_JZg

[RXBoost]

I tried flamingo - felt more solid but I am still scooping. It's horrible lol

 

[GoGoErky]

50 minutes ago, RXBoost said:

I tried flamingo - felt more solid but I am still scooping. It's horrible lol

 

It’s because you are flat in your swing and steep in transition with no rotation.

 

What might be better for you is hitting shots with your feet together using a 7i

[RXBoost]

15 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s because you are flat in your swing and steep in transition with no rotation.

 

What might be better for you is hitting shots with your feet together using a 7i

And I feel like I'm rotating but I'm obviously not. During my practice swings it appears that I'm rotating, but maybe it's after impact. I am really trying to get more steep on the back swing but am having trouble doing it.

 

What will hitting with my feet together promote? Rotation?

Edited May 12, 2023 by RXBoost

[ezra76]

I put a tee down into the dirt an inch in front of the ball for my kid. He hits ball first, rips tee out after with a 7iron.

 

 

[GoGoErky]

50 minutes ago, RXBoost said:

And I feel like I'm rotating but I'm obviously not. During my practice swings it appears that I'm rotating, but maybe it's after impact. I am really trying to get more steep on the back swing but am having trouble doing it.

 

What will hitting with my feet together promote? Rotation?

Yes rotation. But you need to learn how to set your wrists too. 
 

 

[RXBoost]

In this cogorno video they show a flat swing and how to make great impact and compression. And they make it look so simple. Why can my pea brain not process/mimic this?

 

 

[GoGoErky]

11 minutes ago, RXBoost said:

In this cogorno video they show a flat swing and how to make great impact and compression. And they make it look so simple. Why can my pea brain not process/mimic this?

 

 

 

compare his hip movements to yours. They are way different. It allows him to compensate with the arm movement he was talking about. You have to make more compensations in .25 seconds

[RXBoost]

13 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

 

compare his hip movements to yours. They are way different. It allows him to compensate with the arm movement he was talking about. You have to make more compensations in .25 seconds

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I can't get my rotation no matter how I try. And it looks so simple.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RXBoost said:

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I can't get my rotation no matter how I try. And it looks so simple.

The golf swing isn’t simple. 

[RXBoost]

16 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The golf swing isn’t simple. 

Now that's an understatement haha

[RXBoost]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Yes rotation. But you need to learn how to set your wrists too. 
 

 

Are you noticing that I am not hinging my wrists early enough? That's what I am taking out of that video, among other things. It feels like my take away/backswing has too big a radius. And even though I pretty much get my back to the target, I think I am too armsy on the backswing. So many problems.

Edited May 13, 2023 by RXBoost