In-to-out path overrated?

[toddlasher]

I understand the problems with a steep out to in path.  That said, I have been working on developing my fade and I find I get the most power and consistency rotating harder to the left with legs and body, and it results in a path that is outside to in.  This of course helps get me a little curve to the right.  
 

I found this video of DJ and the path definitely appears out to in.  Any thoughts?  Is in-to-out over emphasized?
 

 

[phizzy30]

As long as the in to out or out to in path isn't severe, it's fine IMO.  There was an old pro that said that guys back in the day had to play in to out and that out to in meant death.  Not true at all these days.  You have guys like DJ, Rahm, Burns and Hovland among others, who are out to in and thrive on tour. 

[moptop]

I think the main thing here is intention and ability.  DJ could swing in to out if he wanted too...a lot of ams cannot.  DJ also isn't OTT/Steep like ams who throw their hands out towards the ball as their first move down in transition.

 

Look where DJ's club crosses his bicep in the downswing and the typical OTT am has that shaft crossing their should or neck.    

[SNIPERBBB]

Looks more in-to-in to my eye. 

[toddlasher]

20 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Looks more in-to-in to my eye. 

Yeah maybe.  really need trackman to tell for sure.  Seems like the toe reaches furthest rightward point a couple frames before impact.  Not sure how scientific that is.

Edited June 19, 2023 by toddlasher

[MPStrat]

IMO every beginning golfer should learn to draw the ball. 

 

On paper a 1 or 2 degree leftward path with irons is fine. 
 

The answer to this question on paper is different than a case by case evaluation of the golfer, their tendencies, ability, and demographic.

 

Also, as discussed ad nauseum, driver is a completely different conversation. An in to out path with driver is very often overrated.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by MPStrat

[MPStrat]

28 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Looks more in-to-in to my eye. 

Yes, the answer to the op question when you take a golfer like DJ is, yes, an in to out path is in fact overrated 😂 

 

Is an in to out path overrated in general? I would say absolutely not. 

[SNIPERBBB]

I think it's just rated. 

[Mitchell]

Face to path in relation to angle of attack is where the answer lies. 

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Mitchell said:

Face to path in relation to angle of attack is where the answer lies. 

And the consistency of both, yup. 

The idea that one path is "overrated" is a dangerous generalization that stems from some misunderstandings/misconceptions about face and path. There is a good food/diet analogy here that can help explain:

An in to out path is often seen as some "goal" because so many people struggle with opposite due to a variety of common swing faults and it's important to separate the objective problems from the subjective preferences and the *actual* goal you're working towards. The person with the over the top out to in path in the food analogy is someone with objectively poor dietary habits e.g. too much junk food/empty calories. An in to out path then is presented as the "fruits/vegetables/exercise" correction to the problem, largely due to how the nature of online golf instruction has become clickbait-y and hyperbolic, and to take it at face value is to swing to the opposite extreme and exclusively eat fruits/vegetables and exercise too much, leading to you getting sick and wondering what the hell happened. Most folks with the OTT/bad diet problem go about applying the fruits/vegetables fix the wrong way and screw up their swings even further, which can lead to questions like this about whether something is overrated. Because of course you're going to ask that if you took your "bad" path, flipped it the other way, and still have problems. 

The key in both these scenarios, diet AND golf swing, is consistency and balance. According to Trackman, DJ is slightly out to in with his longer clubs which trends towards very neutral as the clubs get shorter. Some people are the opposite, some people trend differently with different length clubs, but the common point among high level players is the consistency of the relationship between face and path. When DJ is 3* from the outside/pointed left with a face that is 2.5* closed to the target and therefore open 0.5* to the path, he gets that baby fade. When he (and any other pro) is playing well will see VERY little deviation in that relationship. The path will not suddenly flip to 3* from the inside like you'd see with an amateur, it stays outside with his worst misses being either a square face to path which creates the straight ball, or a face that is slightly too open created a little too much fade. ALL of this comes down to consistency and repetition in mechanics and finding what works for you. Someone like Rory for example is the opposite of the DJ in that his natural swing produces an in to out path and often has trouble fading the ball the way he wants, the same reason DJ doesn't draw the ball much. 

So yes, chasing a path is definitely overrated, because it's wrong. You chase a consistency in relationship between your face and the path, whichever that may be, and change only what is necessary to serve that goal. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Valtiel

[doctor220]

3 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Looks more in-to-in to my eye. 

Personal pet peeve when people say this. The golf swing is basically a tilted arc, of course it's always going to look in to in. Even the worst hookers of the ball with severe right paths have the club go left eventually, it's just far too late. 

[SNIPERBBB]

40 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

Personal pet peeve when people say this. The golf swing is basically a tilted arc, of course it's always going to look in to in. Even the worst hookers of the ball with severe right paths have the club go left eventually, it's just far too late. 

Sure but it doesn't look like his hands go outside at all at any point of the swing. Club head does look like it goes out a smidge in the downswing. 

[ram01002]

I think guys like Hovland are probably 3* to 4* from out-to-in and seem to do just fine. Modern equipment works for it. 

[Zitlow]

This is Mike Dunaway from 1993. He was swinging it under and out on his right shoulder plane. The downswing is so quick that once it starts there isn't enough time to make any course corrections. 

 

 

You want to go from the top of your backswing to the finish in one continuous unimpeded motion, don't think about impact. Austin used to say, fly nonstop from NYC to LA, don't stop for a layover in Chicago. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Zitlow

[SheriffBooth]

These guys at the highest levels are almost all just variations on a square face angle to a neutral swing path.  And they can vary path and angle as needed to create the shot they want to hit.  But the guys that are hitting the power fade as their stock shot will have a path that's slightly out to in, with a face angle that's slightly open.  Rory's stock shot is a path that's slightly in to out, with a face angle that's slightly open so he can hit those high draws.  I don't think either is underrated or overrated and every pro does things a bit different.

 

The average club player has a severe over the top move that results in slices.  So most club pros are trying to teach flatter and shallower to get path and face angle moving more down the line where it needs to be.

[Ruleschamp]

Appears to be some confusion in this thread between club path and swing direction.