Rules education - out of bounds with no markers

[JLP_GOLF]

Trying to educate myself and my group for integrity purposes.  What happens if my ball goes into the woods but there are no stakes marking the area?  

 

If i find the ball, can i play it? 

 

If i can't, what are my options?  Retee for 3 or drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where it went out?  I always play a provisional when in doubt but some group members are dropping 3 from the point it went out and wasn't sure if that is within the rules.  Thanks!

 

[Mr. Bean]

If the Committee has not defined any margins for the course then your ball in the woods is in bounds. If you cannot play it from there you may declare it unplayable and use any of the 3 options under Rule 19, ie. 2 club lengths, back on the line or retee.

 

You cannot drop on or by the fairway. This is only applicable if your ball is OB or not found AND the local Rule E-5 is in effect.

[JLP_GOLF]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

If the Committee has not defined any margins for the course then your ball in the woods is in bounds. If you cannot play it from there you may declare it unplayable and use any of the 3 options under Rule 19, ie. 2 club lengths, back on the line or retee.

 

You cannot drop on or by the fairway. This is only applicable if your ball is OB or not found AND the local Rule E-5 is in effect.

Thank you.  Does your first answer apply even if the ball is not findable?  You can still consider it unplayable, right? 
 

Also, you take two club lengths laterally or no closer to the hole on the line it went out on and the hole.  Do I have that right too?

[Newby]

1 hour ago, JLP_GOLF said:

Thank you.  Does your first answer apply even if the ball is not findable?  You can still consider it unplayable, right? 
 

Also, you take two club lengths laterally or no closer to the hole on the line it went out on and the hole.  Do I have that right too?

If your ball is lost you cannot consider it unplayable. Your only way out is to take Stroke & Distance. See Rule 18.2b

 

The 2nd situation only arises if you ball has passed into a Red Penalty Area.
If there are red stakes the principle is right but the detail is wrong. See Rule 17.1

Edited June 29, 2023 by Newby

[iacas]

This is one of my favorite rules. But not why you might think…

 

Spoiler

While we used to be able to decide that our ball was in a water hazard if it met the definition, even if unmarked, we couldn't do the same for OB, even as our friend's golf ball went across a four-lane street into the parking lot of the strip mall across said street (this also assumes they didn't denote that the road marks OB on that side of the course or something). Furthermore, since everything in that direction is in bounds, good ol' Bob practicing chipping in his back yard before the stroke play club championship is practicing on the course before the round and subject to a DQ. 😉

 

Anyway… you have to be able to find and identify a ball to declare it unplayable.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is one of my favorite rules. But not why you might think…

 

  Hide contents

While we used to be able to decide that our ball was in a water hazard if it met the definition, even if unmarked, we couldn't do the same for OB, even as our friend's golf ball went across a four-lane street into the parking lot of the strip mall across said street (this also assumes they didn't denote that the road marks OB on that side of the course or something). Furthermore, since everything in that direction is in bounds, good ol' Bob practicing chipping in his back yard before the stroke play club championship is practicing on the course before the round and subject to a DQ. 😉

 

Anyway… you have to be able to find and identify a ball to declare it unplayable.

Well, technically, you can declare it unplayable without finding it and proceed under the s&d option of Rule 19.🙂

[SNIPERBBB]

25 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Well, technically, you can declare it unplayable without finding it and proceed under the s&d option of Rule 19.🙂

I can kind of get why that's allowed but really to avoid confusion, you shouldn't be allowed to take an unplayable if you can't find the ball. Saves people from thinking they can take BOL or 2 club length relief. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[Newby]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

Well, technically, you can declare it unplayable without finding it and proceed under the s&d option of Rule 19.🙂

Technically you can treat it as unplayable. Until they play the stroke or it is lost, the ball is still in play.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Newby

[Newby]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I can kind of get why that's allowed but really to avoid confusion, you shouldn't be allowed to take an unplayable if you can't find the ball. Saves people from thinking they can take BOL or 2 club length relief. 

• But to take back-on-the-line relief under Rule 19.2b or lateral relief under Rule 19.2c, the player must know the spot of the original ball.

[Celeras]

17 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

You cannot drop on or by the fairway. This is only applicable if your ball is OB or not found AND the local Rule E-5 is in effect.

 

And even if all criteria is met to invoke E-5, you'd be hitting 4 not 3.

[SNIPERBBB]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

• But to take back-on-the-line relief under Rule 19.2b or lateral relief under Rule 19.2c, the player must know the spot of the original ball.

Yeah we know that, guy on the course that doesn't know the ins and outs of the rules being told he can take an unplayable without funding the ball is going to try to take the other relief options. 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

Well, technically, you can declare it unplayable without finding it and proceed under the s&d option of Rule 19.🙂

 

Maybe we'd disagree on whether you're really taking an unplayable or whether you're just invoking 18.1 in taking stroke-and-distance… but yes, point made.

[Newby]

20 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Yeah we know that, guy on the course that doesn't know the ins and outs of the rules being told he can take an unplayable without funding the ball is going to try to take the other relief options. 

How can he take 2 clublengths or a line back from his ball if he doesn't know where it is?

[SNIPERBBB]

23 minutes ago, Newby said:

How can he take 2 clublengths or a line back from his ball if he doesn't know where it is?

I'm just making a simplification point that it's silly to allow a player to take an unplayable lie when there's no benefit to the player to do so other than to keep the rest of the group from searching for the ball. 

[Newby]

31 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

... it's silly to allow a player to take an unplayable lie when there's no benefit to the player to do so other than to keep the rest of the group from searching for the ball. 

So would the player have to wait for 3 minutes whilst the others search?

[SNIPERBBB]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

So would the player have to wait for 3 minutes whilst the others search?

No. take S&D, drop your next ball and yell fore then take your next stroke. original ball is now lost.

[Newby]

52 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

No. take S&D, drop your next ball and yell fore then take your next stroke. original ball is now lost.

I am puzzled. You said earlier " you shouldn't be allowed to take an unplayable if you can't find the ball." 

But the rule already says you can't. What else could/should be done?

[SNIPERBBB]

21 minutes ago, Newby said:

I am puzzled. You said earlier " you shouldn't be allowed to take an unplayable if you can't find the ball." 

But the rule already says you can't. What else could/should be done?

I'm saying that this line "The player may take stroke and distance relief under rule 19.2a even if the original ball has not been found and identified but to take back on the line relief under Rule 19.2b or lateral relief under Rule 19.2c, the player must know the spot of the original ball" should just be deleted.

 

Then under 19.1 it should be stated that to Declare the ball Unplayable, it must be found and identified.  

 

[Mr. Bean]

34 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Then under 19.1 it should be stated that to Declare the ball Unplayable, it must be found and identified.  

 

 

The way I see this is that 19.2a is one of the unplayable options for simplicity and uniformity. Once you declare your ball unplayable you have three options of which the two you may only use if you know the exact location of your (unplayable) ball. The S&D option is there always but that covers all situations where a player wants to use that option and not only when their ball is unplayable.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The way I see this is that 19.2a is one of the unplayable options for simplicity and uniformity. Once you declare your ball unplayable you have three options of which the two you may only use if you know the exact location of your (unplayable) ball. The S&D option is there always but that covers all situations where a player wants to use that option and not only when their ball is unplayable.

 

It just doesn't need to be there is the point I'm trying to make. Listing it under the unplayable rule just gives the possibile mistaken implication that the other relief options are available. 

 

 

[JLP_GOLF]

more confused now than when i started hahaha....they just need to make clear, simply defined rules

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

It just doesn't need to be there is the point I'm trying to make. Listing it under the unplayable rule just gives the possibile mistaken implication that the other relief options are available. 

 

 

 

Well, some people understand what they read and some do not. Personally I dislike the idea of drawing everything into pictures.

[SNIPERBBB]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, some people understand what they read and some do not. Personally I dislike the idea of drawing everything into pictures.

I officiate multiple sports and it's amazing how people can get confused. And most of those rules attempted to be idiot proof but still it happens and guys fail the open book test... 

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, JLP_GOLF said:

more confused now than when i started hahaha....they just need to make clear, simply defined rules

Go ahead and try. The Rules are pretty good. Look at the rules for any other sport and you’ll find them just as unusual in certain places.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I'm saying that this line "The player may take stroke and distance relief under rule 19.2a even if the original ball has not been found and identified but to take back on the line relief under Rule 19.2b or lateral relief under Rule 19.2c, the player must know the spot of the original ball" should just be deleted.

 

Then under 19.1 it should be stated that to Declare the ball Unplayable, it must be found and identified.  

 

I see your point and agree with the second suggestion. But keeping the first part is a worthwhile reinforcement.

[JLP_GOLF]

Have tried reading before but the language used creates ambiguity imo.  Some is straight forward, some not so much.    Should be as simple and clear as possible.  Most people probably give up quickly.  Short and sweet

[Newby]

3 minutes ago, JLP_GOLF said:

Have tried reading before but the language used creates ambiguity imo.  Some is straight forward, some not so much.    Should be as simple and clear as possible.  Most people probably give up quickly.  Short and sweet

Can you give a couple of examples of ambiguity in the rules?

[JLP_GOLF]

44 minutes ago, Newby said:

Can you give a couple of examples of ambiguity in the rules?

Nope not taking the thread that way.  Have heard the same from dozens of golfers.  Thanks for contributing 

[Newby]

5 minutes ago, JLP_GOLF said:

Nope not taking the thread that way.  Have heard the same from dozens of golfers.  Thanks for contributing 

Fine but as you raised the topic, perhaps you could start a new thread.

[Schulzmc]

He’d be hard pressed to give an example. The Rules of Golf contain a lot of things but ambiguity is not among them.