Where does the fairway end?

[ahenderX]

I’m not a rules expert but I think the fairway ends where the green starts. Am I correct and is this always the case? I played a round of golf with a person who took a two stroke penalty for hitting out of bounds. Using the local rule option he could drop in the fairway one club from the rough but no closer to the hole. Because the grass next to the green was cut at a height similar to the fairway, that’s where he took relief. Plus he was definitely closer to the hole. My initial protest was the fairway stopped at the green. Was I correct? Thanks.

[iacas]

I don't think you were. The fringe is fairway, too.

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

I’m not a rules expert but I think the fairway ends where the green starts. Am I correct and is this always the case? I played a round of golf with a person who took a two stroke penalty for hitting out of bounds. Using the local rule option he could drop in the fairway one club from the rough but no closer to the hole. Because the grass next to the green was cut at a height similar to the fairway, that’s where he took relief. Plus he was definitely closer to the hole. My initial protest was the fairway stopped at the green. Was I correct? Thanks.

 

Iirc there is NO fairway defined in the Rules, EXCEPT for this Local Rule, E-5, an alternative for lost ball or OB.

 

For purposes of this rule, "For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less."

 

So, IF that area is cut to fairway height, which a lot of holes are (right up to the green), he's good. Fringe ? Nope.

 

However, as you yourself said, and as with anything(?) in golf, NO closer to the hole than the "ball reference point", i.e. where the ball crossed OB or where the ball was deemed lost.

[ahenderX]

27 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Iirc there is NO fairway defined in the Rules, EXCEPT for this Local Rule, E-5, an alternative for lost ball or OB.

 

For purposes of this rule, "For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less."

 

So, IF that area is cut to fairway height, which a lot of holes are (right up to the green), he's good. Fringe ? Nope.

 

However, as you yourself said, and as with anything(?) in golf, NO closer to the hole than the "ball reference point", i.e. where the ball crossed OB or where the ball was deemed lost.

Thank you. In my example, my playing partner’s ball went OB to the right of the green with the cart path directly behind the green. My playing partner dropped more than halfway between the OB marker, where he went OB, and the edge of the green, in what he deemed to be fairway. OB runs all the way down the right hand side of the hole. 

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Fringe ? Nope.

Huh?

 

38 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

"For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less."

Are you suggesting that the fringe is longer than the fairway? I’ve seen greens with a fringe and a first cut of rough, but almost all fringes are basically fairway height or less that I’ve seen. They are often indistinguishable from the fairway and blend right in to them because there is no difference.

 

As for where he dropped, it’s no closer, yeah. There are plenty of par threes with short grass around the green, even behind it.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by iacas

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

Thank you. In my example, my playing partner’s ball went OB to the right of the green with the cart path directly behind the green. My playing partner dropped more than halfway between the OB marker, where he went OB, and the edge of the green, in what he deemed to be fairway. OB runs all the way down the right hand side of the hole. 

 

It can also get fairly complicated when lost/OB around or behind the green - but since this LR is used mostly for casual play, probably not that big of a deal.

 

Note - Given the design of the hole he may have a better/clear shot from relatively minor rough than being in the fairway but blocked by a tree or 6.

 

The area is a semi-circle from the "ball reference point" to the "fairway". Note the player can drop anywhere within the arc and doesn't have to go to the fairway.

 

Here's the skinny, from the USGA

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Huh?

 

Are you suggesting that the fringe is longer than the fairway?

 

As for where he dropped, it’s no closer, yeah. There are plenty of par threes with short grass around the green, even behind it.

 

 

Many fringes where I've played are at a height *I* would say is higher than the fairway. YMMV.

 

But all one has to do is follow the wording, even in "short grass around the green".

[ahenderX]

23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

It can also get fairly complicated when lost/OB around or behind the green - but since this LR is used mostly for casual play, probably not that big of a deal.

 

Note - Given the design of the hole he may have a better/clear shot from relatively minor rough than being in the fairway but blocked by a tree or 6.

 

The area is a semi-circle from the "ball reference point" to the "fairway". Note the player can drop anywhere within the arc and doesn't have to go to the fairway.

 

Here's the skinny, from the USGA

Thank you.

 

edited: So based on the USGA link, my playing partner should have estimated the distance where the ball went out of bounds to the hole, swung an arch from the hole which would have put him in front of the green, then took two club lengths from the rough, and no closer to the hole. That’s his next shot position.

Edited July 1, 2023 by ahenderX
Clarity

[sui generis]

Here's the best "bumper sticker" version of E-5. I've come across:

 

Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. Drop a ball anywhere in the general area behind that arc. Add two penalty strokes.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Many fringes where I've played are at a height *I* would say is higher than the fairway. YMMV.

 

 

It seems to me that you are simply trying to avoid admitting you are wrong. There is no "fringe" in the world that could be higher in cut than the fairway.

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

There is no "fringe" in the world

 

"Fringe" seems to mean different things to different folks.

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

"Fringe" seems to mean different things to different folks.

 

And this is how all the misunderstandings in the world origin. You cut&paste one part and omit the other and makie a point based on that single pasted part.

 

What was your point, Sui?

 

[sui generis]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What was your point, Sui?

 

The "point" is that fringe in Alabama may not be the same as fringe in Argentina. That makes it difficult to make "always" and "never" proclamations about "fringe".

[BHI 99]

Generally the tee, approach, collar (fringe) and fairway are all cut the same height. You might see some differences here and there but I’m not sure I ever have. The three machines cutting generally have some overlap. 

[Pepperturbo]

4 hours ago, ahenderX said:

I’m not a rules expert but I think the fairway ends where the green starts. Am I correct and is this always the case? I played a round of golf with a person who took a two stroke penalty for hitting out of bounds. Using the local rule option he could drop in the fairway one club from the rough but no closer to the hole. Because the grass next to the green was cut at a height similar to the fairway, that’s where he took relief. Plus he was definitely closer to the hole. My initial protest was the fairway stopped at the green. Was I correct? Thanks.

Not a rules expert either.  Anything sort of the actual green up to and including the green apron or fringe, is fairway, or missed GIR. 

 

How people interpret the OB drop rule is a crap shoot.  Hitting the OB from the tee, OB, to me means hitting a provisional.  That local rule sounds very accommodating. 🙂 

 

Sounds like Where his ball when out of Bounds, parallel into the fairway is the drop area.  Could be wrong though, seeing the OB point, parallel relationship to the fairway and front of green helps. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[Mr. Bean]

53 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

The "point" is that fringe in Alabama may not be the same as fringe in Argentina. That makes it difficult to make "always" and "never" proclamations about "fringe".

 

You mean like word "pig" in Alabama means an animal but in NYC it means a police officer?

 

Around here fringe has one and only one meaning, and that is a zone between the Putting Green and the area cut to fairway height, cut to a height lower than that of the fairway but higher than that of the PG.

 

Must be one of those cultural differences again. 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Many fringes where I've played are at a height *I* would say is higher than the fairway. YMMV.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. I’ve played a lot of courses.

 

Plus you said it definitively:

 

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Fringe ? Nope.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. I’ve played a lot of courses.

 

Plus you said it definitively:

 

 

Yeah, I suppose I should know better than to say something like that "definitively", but at least I (also) wrote out the rule.

 

I'll admit I don't spend a lot of time noticing fringes, or collars, or whatever else they may be called but down here in Florida, with very tight fairways, there are fringes/collars that are definately longer than the fairway.

 

Some 6 or 7 years ago, frustrated that I couldn't putt off the collars (Bermuda) around here (SoFla), because sometimes the ball would be grabbed and go "nowhere" and other times it'd zip past the hole like it was putted from on the green.

 

I proceeded to practice long and hard at my chipping so I wouldn't have to putt those. And those fringes/collars were clearly higher than fairway height.

 

But I'm quite sure you've played a lot more courses than I have. If you say you've never seen it, you've never seen it. Cheers. 👍

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It seems to me that you are simply trying to avoid admitting you are wrong. There is no "fringe" in the world that could be higher in cut than the fairway.

 

Nah, that's YOUR bag.

 

I realize you know pretty much everything about everything but I doubt you've been to every course in the world.

 

BTW, did you ever look up the word "cheat" ?

[Schulzmc]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

I'll admit I don't spend a lot of time noticing fringes, or collars, or whatever else they may be called but down here in Florida, with very tight fairways, there are fringes/collars that are definately longer than the fairway.

I’ve probably played 60 golf courses in Florida and I have never seen fringe around the green longer than the fairway.

[sui generis]

This discussion is futile. Everyone has their own notion of what fringe is. To some, it's the "collar" (whatever that is) and to others it might be the grass or rough adjacent to the collar, if there is one. Furthermore, the elusive fringe might not be the same in front of the green as it is along the sides and different again at the back.

 

Sox win; runner on second ran through the stop sign and was thrown out at the plate.

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, nsxguy said:

I'll admit I don't spend a lot of time noticing fringes, or collars, or whatever else they may be called but down here in Florida, with very tight fairways, there are fringes/collars that are definately longer than the fairway.

 

 

I cannot stop asking myself why on earth there would be a section of grass between fairway and putting green cut longer in height than the fairway. I admit, I've failed to find a rational answer to that question.

 

Can someone help and give a rational answer to that question?

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Mr. Bean
typo

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I’ve probably played 60 golf courses in Florida and I have never seen fringe around the green longer than the fairway.

 

Fair enough.

[BHI 99]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I cannot stop asking myself why on earth there would be a section of grass between fairway and putting green cut longer in height than the fairway. I admit, I've failed to find a rational answer to that question.

 

Can someone help and give a rational answer to that question?

 

Because there isn’t. 

[kiwigolf72]

of course there is.

The fairway ends where it is cut. The greens staff are not rewarding you for thinning your wedge from 100 out only for it to run up on to the green. 

I have played plenty of par 3s where there is no fairway. tee box, fringe and green that's it.

Edited September 6, 2023 by kiwigolf72
bad grammar

[st1800e]

On all the courses I can remember playing, maybe 400, in the vast majority the fairway simply continues to the edge of the green, sometime fully across the front, sometimes pinched in to abut only a portion of the green and is the same height at the collar, fringe, or whatever it's called.  Maybe a very few had rough right in front of the green, but there was a collar/fringe etc, cut to fairway height.  

 

Regardless, I don't think I've seen a solution to the case where there is nothing but rough on the hole, e.g. a par three,  with only a fairway height cut or less i.e. "fringe", around the green.

The MLR says drop in the "fairway", what if there is no "fairway" thats not closer to the hole?  

[klebs01]

9 minutes ago, st1800e said:

On all the courses I can remember playing, maybe 400, in the vast majority the fairway simply continues to the edge of the green, sometime fully across the front, sometimes pinched in to abut only a portion of the green and is the same height at the collar, fringe, or whatever it's called.  Maybe a very few had rough right in front of the green, but there was a collar/fringe etc, cut to fairway height.  

 

Regardless, I don't think I've seen a solution to the case where there is nothing but rough on the hole, e.g. a par three,  with only a fairway height cut or less i.e. "fringe", around the green.

The MLR says drop in the "fairway", what if there is no "fairway" thats not closer to the hole?  

it doesn’t have to be in the fairway, so it seems anywhere no nearer the hole would suffice. 

[st1800e]

4 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

it doesn’t have to be in the fairway, so it seems anywhere no nearer the hole would suffice. 

"

Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less."

[Colin L]

Why the effort to pin down the fringe or apron  as if it were a rules-defined feature of a golf course and when it is wholly irrelevant to the procedure for lost ball relief the OP is asking about?  If there is a discernible fringe it is just a part of the general area and the only question is whether it is cut to fairway height or not.  That this wee bit of the general area has a commonly used name misleads folk into thinking it is a defined area with particular status.  It isn't.

 

The only places in the Rules  where I recollect the fringe/apron is mentioned are MLR D-1 Clarifying Edge of Putting Green and MLR D-4 Prohibiting Play from Fringe of Wrong Green.  Nowhere, as far as I recall, is the term defined.   As you'll see,    D-4 avoids that by using a measurement. 

 

(By the way, if the fringe is cut to exactly the same height as the rest of the fairway, it won't be discernible. Does it exist?)

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Colin L

[st1800e]

@Colin L, what’s your view on where to drop if there’s no fairway no closer to the hole when using the MLR?