Southern Kentucky gems: Park Mammoth/Dale Hollow Lake?

[vandyfan]

Park Mammoth - 4/6/2024 - Sunny, 45-55 degrees, 10-15 mph that seemed to swirl and switch every 3 holes. I walked the golf course to make sure I had a good sense of it AND I just like to walk. Caveat: I played very well (for me) so that may have influenced this review. I made 5 birdies and probably should have had 7. 

 

So, off the top, this is what I think more golf courses (that have the room) should look/play/feel like. Here is the short of it, quite open off the tee with fairly wild greens so ANGLES matter, strategy abounds and most holes have plenty of options. On the options front, the following holes had DISTINCT options (#2, #3, #5 which is a par 3 with options (rare), #8, #9, #10, #15, #16 (another par 3 with options WOW), #17, #18.  The course is in good shape, it is fun (extremely fun) and they are slowly building out a clubhouse and other amenities (personally I don't give a s#*^ about a clubhouse but some people do). I would play this course EVERY DAY and I will likely drive here multiple times per year and I live 90 miles away. After playing I immediately looked up the architect (Brian Ross - Ross Golf Design, slowly building a portfolio) and as I read his website I was nodding my head at all of his design principles.

 

Comparisions: This course had faint whiffs of Tobacco Road (faint) with some roller coaster banks on some of the greens and some perched blind approach shots. I thought of Sweetens a couple of times but this is less cartoonish than some of the greens at Sweetens (I love Sweetens, I am not hating on Sweetens but sometimes it is a little too much). The land is obviously way better here than Sweetens and many other golf courses. I thought they use the valley very well with *maybe* the exception of #6 which has a huge sidehill left to right. Previously, I would have told you my favorite courses in the Southeast were Pursell Farms, Sweetens, Pinehurst No. 4, Tobacco Road and True Blue. This gets added to that list for me, no question. I really hope this course continues on its trajectory, keeps $$$ coming in and hopefully can get enough juice from articles/influencers to make it commercially successful but NOT COMPLETELY BOOKED UP EVERY SECOND LIKE Sand Valley, Sweetens (to some extent), etc. This probably isn't helping that. 

 

Best stretch of holes: 7-10
Weakest stretch of holes: 11-14 (though 12 had a very cool greensite)
Favorite Hole: 15 (I am calling it the SUPER redan). 

 

We weren't in any hurry so we spent about 10 minutes on the green at #8, #15 and #18 just hitting different chips and putts and even throwing the ball just to see how it would react off some of the severe banks. I am sure @smashdn and @BigEddie can chime in but this course probably can get WILD in the middle of the summer. Right now it was slightly soft and there was a little topdressing on the greens so I think it tamed the contours a tad.  

 

I am not very good at pictures so here come a few:

 

 

Edited April 8 by vandyfan

[smashdn]

I think you are right on.  The driving corridors are wide but the penalty for one that gets into the fescue is harsh.  You might find your ball, you might not.  You might get it hacked out, you might not.

 

I agree with you on 12,13,14.  They are in there tight.  Again it is hard to lose a ball through there or be out of the hole but the more wayward you are, the more blind your approach becomes.  But because it is wide open, people playing the other holes can be in your way (or in jeopardy if you are the guilty party).

 

I don't recall which holes but there are some greens where if you are above the hole you won't keep it on the green from certain spots.  And it doesn't feel tricked up because I don't remember any hole location that is inaccessible.  To your point, angles matter.

 

 

@vandyfan I was coming back to this to blast you for no pics but I see you added them now so you get a pass.

 

Sometime later this summer we need to get a meetup of some flavor arranged at a local course.  The old Golf Kentucky Links had an annual get together but that forum died and the facebook version of it is not as active as even the forum was.

Edited April 8 by smashdn

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

I don't recall which holes but there are some greens where if you are above the hole you won't keep it on the green from certain spots. 

 

Based on what I saw I would say #8, #15, #17, #18 for certain you are not keeping it on the green from up above. #15 and #18 have HUGE backstops behind them where a ball could get some serious speed if you landed up on top and had it rolling back down. I would argue that if you hit the slope on the back of #18 green with backspin you could EASILY pull the ball back 45 feet back to the front of the green or *maybe* even into the front bunker. We were putting balls past the hole (back left on the day I played it) up onto the backstop and they were rolling back past us and to the front middle of the green. Same with #15. 

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

Sometime later this summer we need to get a meetup of some flavor arranged at a local course.  The old Golf Kentucky Links had an annual get together but that forum died and the facebook version of it is not as active as even the forum was.

 

I am in Nashville but would always drive for Park Mammoth at this point, though I am not super flexible since I have small kids. As far as Nashville and the surrounding area goes, Harpeth Hills / Montgomery Bell / Legacy are the only courses I would really put forth as fun/value/interest courses (Hermitage is good as well but on the expensive side). But all that said, it is always fun to get out with people that enjoy golf and interesting golf courses. I am never opposed to that. 

 

 

Edited April 8 by vandyfan

[eddiebigeddie]

@vandyfan great write up and pretty bang on with what you said.  There are multiple holes that if on the wrong "tier" during the summer months you're gonna 3 or 4 putt very easy.    Also like you mentioned most of the holes you have options on how you wanna play the hole and they all can be good options. 

 

The course is short enough that there's plenty of birdie opportunities but get out of sorts and big numbers can be had too.  I've watched some of the kids play a stretch of the course in 4 or 5 under only to give all that up in another stretch of the course.  I've been fortunate that every time I've played it the wind has been on the calmer side of things, but I've seen it when the winds have been 20+ mph and it can really affect what happens out there. 

 

Its a great course...you need to see it when its all green, heather grass taller, greens on firm side and a little wind out there.  

 

The first "Tourney" that was held out there in the Summer of 22....Mr. Ky who has since went on to play at Alabama set the course record of 62 (-8)

[eddiebigeddie]

3 hours ago, vandyfan said:

I am in Nashville but would always drive for Park Mammoth at this point, though I am not super flexible since I have small kids. As far as Nashville and the surrounding area goes, Harpeth Hills / Montgomery Bell / Legacy are the only courses I would really put forth as fun/value/interest courses (Hermitage is good as well but on the expensive side). But all that said, it is always fun to get out with people that enjoy golf and interesting golf courses. I am never opposed to that. 

 

 

Obviously I'm just down the road from Mammoth and would enjoy playing out there...I also have enjoyed some of the Nashville courses the last few years.  I've played Old Hickory CC, The Legacy-nice course, (Forrest Crossing/The Crossing/Franklin Bridge)-fun course but I hear its a slow round no matter when you go nowdays.

 

If you are up this way I might be able to get us on at Indian Hills CC or Bowling Green CC (hosts Ky State Tourney every year) both are very nice courses and top notch for this area.

[eddiebigeddie]

Also, @vandyfan 5 birdies is great...what did you end up shooting? ;)

[vandyfan]

6 minutes ago, eddiebigeddie said:

Also, @vandyfan 5 birdies is great...what did you end up shooting? 😉

 

Haha. Thanks for ASKING! What a guy. I shot 34/37 from the "tips" (as you know it is only about 6,200 yds). Somehow 3 putted from 12 feet on #18 which still didn't really dampen my mood. Birdied #1, #3, #8, #9, and #17. I think I beat both of the "Golfin' Old Glory" youtube guys on the front by 3-4 shots. Wind was 10 mph on the front and 15 on the back but was generally a cross wind. Drove the green on #9, etc. etc. A really really really fun round of golf. 

[eddiebigeddie]

14 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

Haha. Thanks for ASKING! What a guy. I shot 34/37 from the "tips" (as you know it is only about 6,200 yds). Somehow 3 putted from 12 feet on #18 which still didn't really dampen my mood. Birdied #1, #3, #8, #9, and #17. I think I beat both of the "Golfin' Old Glory" youtube guys on the front by 3-4 shots. Wind was 10 mph on the front and 15 on the back but was generally a cross wind. Drove the green on #9, etc. etc. A really really really fun round of golf. 

Thats a great score no matter what the course length.  Still gotta hit the shots and make the putts is how I see it.  I haven't broke 80 on it yet, only played it 2x and the first time was in "Winter" last Feb and it was my first round of the year 🥴 and then last summer when it was one of those really windy days.

[vandyfan]

After my breathless description of the course yesterday I wanted to wait and then decide if I still want to highlight the "options" at Park Mammoth and, no surprise, I do. I will start with #2 which I think is a fascinating hole. 

 

#2 - Par 4 - Plays 318 yds from back box to center of green, Back box is 621 ft in elevation and green is 575 ft. 

 

 

You can play this AT LEAST 3 different ways:
- The yellow line is the safest tee shot because you can just blast it left of the green and have like 70+ yds to land it in. However your second shot is blind as you are now 20-25 feet below the putting surface and you have a bunker between you and the green (it looks like dirt on google earth but it is a large bunker now). The designer gave you hope though, the right side of the green is up against a large kicker/backstop which is 6-8 feet higher than the putting surface so if you hit a little long it should roll back towards the center of the green. 
- The pink line is the layup option, take a club that has no chance of reaching the right bunker (250-260 yds from the tee BUT it is 70 ft downhill so effectively plays like 235-245 probably) but the more left you stray, the less of the green you can see. [Note: This is why the angles are so cool out here, you can hit fairways all day but be on the wrong side of the greens and be playing blind constantly]. You will probably still only have 70 - 90 yds left into this green even with a layup. Will be 20 ft uphill again and probably semi-blind BUT you have that kicker on the right still which I would stray towards. 
- The white line is the "go for it"/ risk-reward whatever you want to call it line. This requires probably at least a 250 yd carry (in elevation neutral terms, the actual carry is like 265 downhill). The landing zone over the bunker is only about 32 yds and if you miss right it is probably a lost ball. I took this line since my miss is left anyways and managed to carry the bunker and pull it off which was thrilling. For your second shot on this line, you can see the entire green and have a straight forward chip onto the green. You don't really need the kicker but it is fun to use if you are feeling creative. 

 

So there you have at least one hole that shows pretty cool optionality and risk/reward opportunities. If you blow it way left, to me, you are deferring your risk to the second shot. Same with the layup. If you take the risky line, then you are taking your risk, obviously, right off the bat. I love, love, love holes like this. You can play it differently depending on conditions, your confidence level, your playing partners, etc. In my mind, you have 3 different "experiences" here that would keep this hole interesting week to week. I also like that this course is on the shorter side because, to me, that INCREASES your options off most tees. When the course isn't brutally long, you don't have to hit driver on a lot of holes (but you still can which is fun). 

 

Okay, one more, loved this hole too. It is a PAR 3 that has some distinct options, to me. #16 - Par 3 - Plays 238 yds from the back tee. Back box elevation is 686 ft, Green elevation is 621 ft.

 

Full disclosure: I HATE par 3s that are 200+ yds. Maybe I am a coward, who knows, but I don't like really long par 3s. They are a Donald Ross staple and maybe a Brian Ross (no relation - I think?) staple because there are two 200+ yd par 3s on this course. But this one is very cool. 

 

 

So, even though this hole is long it plays 60 ft downhill AND allows you to run a shot on. That bunker short, to me, is more of a helper than a hazard. It is raised so the back of it is almost like a ramp that will propel your ball towards the green. Also, short left funnels your ball towards the green. On a mega firm and fast day, I would be trying to carry it 10 yds past the bunker rather than fly it on the green. This past weekend I just took my 215 club and hit the green but I don't know if that would have held the green in the middle of the summer (ended up back right quadrant of green). To me, this green kind of plays at least 20 yds shorter than its stated distance and could be as much 35-40 yds shorter if you aim just left of the centerline bunker. I can tell you that you would rather be short than long as long leaves you 5-7 ft below the green. 

 

[eddiebigeddie]

26 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

#2 - Par 4 - Plays 318 yds from back box to center of green, Back box is 621 ft in elevation and green is 575 ft. 

 

Okay, one more, loved this hole too. It is a PAR 3 that has some distinct options, to me. #16 - Par 3 - Plays 238 yds from the back tee. Back box elevation is 686 ft, Green elevation is 621 ft.

 

 

 

Very accurate description of #2...the only thing I think you left out and its important is that the green is basically 2 greens...from middle of green it slopes heavily to the front and then the other half slopes to the back of the green...so basically like to ramps put together sloping away from each other.

 

On #16 again good description as well.  What I've come to see on this particular hole is that the short right miss is the best play, other than hitting the green.  As long as its a normal high shot into the green it will hold no issues...its the lower shot that takes a chance of running off although I haven't seen it yet.  Anything past the bunker to the right leaves a good angle to approach with a pitch/chip.  This is a hole also that when the wind is a factor you play the actual yardage and maybe even more because the wind comes through the valley and hits that opening right at the green.  

[smashdn]

RE #2

 

@eddiebigeddie touched on it but the slope of the green makes it so there are at least two distinct sections (maybe more).  Going off my faulty memory I seem to remember that the green is benched into the hill and has a dividing ridge across the narrowest portion.  If you are looking down it length ways from your white line line, it tilts pretty hard right to left.  To your yellow line point, you can elect to play into that green into the slope but at the cost of blind ness and a lack of depth (somewhat offset by the slope).

 

On #2 I have tried to get it to the red star in the diagram.  First time I pulled it into the tall grass and had to bust it out of there.  The second time I played it I want to say I tried the same play but was too cautious and left it too far right.  So had to play down the narrow portion and from farther away.  Red star position gives you the benefit of the back slope, especially if the hole is cut on the front or right of the green, but is also not so far down the green is blind.

 

Don't forget there is a tree maybe 180 yards or so out on the right hand side (lime green bush looking thing in my version).  Depending upon your line and shot shape it too can be in play.

 

 

 

If you end up in that bunker this is your fate.

 

I can't say that I have ever played 16 well.  I just try to cover the bunker and let a long iron skip or bounce on.  I think #3 is strategically more interesting a par three to me.

 

***I can also host you guys in Franklin during the week.  Bad thing is here lately I am tied up with soccer or baseball games and practices.  It might be summer before I have a little more freedom of schedule.

Edited April 9 by smashdn
formatting

[eddiebigeddie]

9 minutes ago, smashdn said:

RE #2

 

@eddiebigeddie touched on it but the slope of the green makes it so there are at least two distinct sections (maybe more).  Going off my faulty memory I seem to remember that the green is benched into the hill and has a dividing ridge across the narrowest portion.  If you are looking down it length ways from your white line line, it tilts pretty hard right to left.  To your yellow line point, you can elect to play into that green into the slope but at the cost of blind ness and a lack of depth (somewhat offset by the slope).

 

On #2 I have tried to get it to the red star in the diagram.  First time I pulled it into the tall grass and had to bust it out of there.  The second time I played it I want to say I tried the same play but was too cautious and left it too far left.  So had to play down the narrow portion and from farther away.  Red star position gives you the benefit of the back slope, especially if the hole is cut on the front or right of the green, but is also not so far down the green is blind.

 

Don't forget there is a tree maybe 180 yards or so out on the right hand side (lime green bush looking thing in my version).  Depending upon your line and shot shape it too can be in play.

 

 

 

If you end up in that bunker this is your fate.

 

I can't say that I have ever played 16 well.  I just try to cover the bunker and let a long iron skip or bounce on.  I think #3 is strategically more interesting a par three to me.

 

***I can also host you guys in Franklin during the week.  Bad thing is here lately I am tied up with soccer or baseball games and practices.  It might be summer before I have a little more freedom of schedule.

@smashdn you are correct that the green slopes right to left fairly hard.  I have always laid up just short of the bunker on the right with a hybrid.  I like that it gives you a better view of the green.

 

As far as #3...its a par 5, not a 3. The par 3's on the front are #5 and #7...the back are #11 & #16

 

I am down to play in Franklin too...where do you typically play over there?

[smashdn]

4 hours ago, eddiebigeddie said:

@smashdn you are correct that the green slopes right to left fairly hard.  I have always laid up just short of the bunker on the right with a hybrid.  I like that it gives you a better view of the green.

 

As far as #3...its a par 5, not a 3. The par 3's on the front are #5 and #7...the back are #11 & #16

 

Sorry #5.  Long uphill par three.   

 

(See, faulty memory.)

 

4 hours ago, eddiebigeddie said:

I am down to play in Franklin too...where do you typically play over there?

 

I am at FCC.

Edited April 9 by smashdn

[eddiebigeddie]

Yeah #5 is a "fun" hole.  Best play is to aim front right of the green and play the bank to help get it on the green.  But DO NOT miss left  Its death over there.

[eddiebigeddie]

 @vandyfan @smashdn

 

 

[smashdn]

Some conversation about KY state park courses from the State Parks Commissioner Russ Meyer.

https://onebeardedgolfer.com/2024/03/19/blind-shots-podcast-s5-e10-state-park-golf-series-ky-parks-commissioner-russ-meyer/

 

Improvements coming to courses in 2024 including updated irrigation on four courses, converting some greens from bent to bermuda (Barren River and Ky Dam Village).

 

Regarding bermuda greens, he brings up Mineral Mound (which now has the more-than-a-mouthful name of The Cullan at Mineral Mound).  I haven't been out there in several years to play it.  However, when I was heading west to play that course my gripe was always the condition of the greens.  They were thin and patchy and many times off-color.  I chalked that up to A) how they were built, B) lack of air flow and sun to some of them and finally C) the amount of traffic they must get.  Meyer is saying that the conversion of those greens to bermuda in years past has made a dramatic improvement to them and to the labor required to maintain them.   There are a few greens at BRL where they seemed stressed.  Hopefully, they too, improve once converted.  My concern though is going to be winter playability. 

 

He also brought up using the Billy Bunker system at Dale Hollow.  No need to go into the issues there with those bunkers.  Maybe @eddiebigeddie has been out to DH to comment on any changes he has seen (or not) with those bunkers?

Edited April 16 by smashdn

[eddiebigeddie]

So irrigation, bunkers & new greens @ Barren River St. Park....works for me 🙂

[eddiebigeddie]

55 minutes ago, smashdn said:

He also brought up using the Billy Bunker system at Dale Hollow.  No need to go into the issues there with those bunkers.  Maybe @eddiebigeddie has been out to DH to comment on any changes he has seen (or not) with those bunkers?

I haven’t been out to DH in about 3 yrs I think so don’t think I’ve seen those. 

[smashdn]

Back to bunkers at DH, looking at some pictures of the most recent reviews on google, it appears as though they are slowly making progress on renovating them with the Billy Bunker system.  Some pictured are in great shape with bright white sand, others have either contaminated sand or no sand at all and you can see the drainage trenches.

 

Hopefully they continue to fund that project until it is complete.  DH really is a great course whose achilles was always the bunkers.  It is just a haul to get there and not really a great way to get there either.

Edited April 22 by smashdn