Advice for Rules Official

[2bGood]

I was witness to an interesting situation this weekend. I was an RO at an event and finished up my zone earlier in the day and tagged on to follow the leaders on the final holes. I should note this event allowed the use of carts (due to heat). 

 

On the 16th hole one of the players hit his tee shot into an area with deep rough where there was a good chance he lost his ball. There was a a gallery of about 50 people, some in the area where it landed and the rest heading that way. The player said to his cart driver/caddie "I need to slow down and get my head straight, I am going to walk up."

 

My guess was this was to give the gallery time to search before the player reach the area and the clock started. I guess the official working with the leaders thought the same thing and offered this comment before the caddie could drive away: "The clock starts when the player or their caddie gets up the area." The caddie then decided to drive along side his player while the player walked up. It turned out the extra search time they gained was needed, as by my stop watch the ball was found right at the three minute mark.

 

My understanding has always been as rules official we can say something to prevent a player from breaking a rule, but not provide information that would change the way they play the hole or suggest options under the rule, without them asking. My most common example is I see players not know how to take a drop, and really not taking advantage of the maximum or best relief they can get. It drives me crazy that I can not say anything as they ignore a much better relief option...

 

The head official was also following the groups, and right after I brought this up to him as my view a line had been crossed, but he was enough okay with it. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[JetSpeed79]

Interesting topic. So if a rules official saw a payer taking an unplayable out of a bunker and start to drop back on the grass, would they possibly remind the player that it’s two strokes on the grass but only one if they drop in the bunker? A rule is not technically about to be broken. Or would the majority of rules officials stay silent in that scenario?

[sui generis]

50 minutes ago, JetSpeed79 said:

Interesting topic. So if a rules official saw a payer taking an unplayable out of a bunker and start to drop back on the grass, would they possibly remind the player that it’s two strokes on the grass but only one if they drop in the bunker? A rule is not technically about to be broken. Or would the majority of rules officials stay silent in that scenario?

 

I would not intervene. 🙂

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

The player said to his cart driver/caddie "I need to slow down and get my head straight, I am going to walk up."

 

That's good enough for me, so unless something else was done to bring R5.6  Unreasonable Delay; Prompt Pace of Play into it, I'd not bother the player.

[2bGood]

35 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

That's good enough for me, so unless something else was done to bring R5.6  Unreasonable Delay; Prompt Pace of Play into it, I'd not bother the player.

The fact he was walking up was not my issue. I actually liked it as he was trying to use the rules to his advantage. 

 

My issue was his caddie was going to drive up and join the search and the RO provided him a tip that if he did join in the search would start when the caddie arrived. The RO did not stop a rule from being broken, but provided some unsolicited information about the rules that assisted the player and provided them a better option. 

 

To me it is like if I was on the scene of a player taking a drop from a yellow hazard and they are about to take a legal drop near the point of entry giving them a terrible lie, and I said "you know you can drop back on the line as far as you like." (as there are much better options for their drop.) No rule would be broken with their first drop, so I am not intervening to stop a rule being broken. 

 

As an aside, if you are a player reading this and you are in situation with a rules official present, ask them the open ended question. "What are my options under the rules here?". Too many times players ask "Can I drop here?" My answer is "yes that would be legal drop." Where is if you ask for your options I will tell you everything you can do and you get to pick the best one.

 

I am curious to how other RO's handle this, as I don't say anything (about golf) to the players unless asked or they are about to break a rule. 

[Curiouser]

Interesting and informative thread thank you.

[iacas]

Making players aware of the rules is generally fine. This edges closer to un-asked for advice (not RoG “advice”) so I understand your hesitance, but I still think this was okay.

[antip]

Telling a player he has a better rules option than what he has chosen is interfering in the competition inappropriately unless the player has sought guidance. I have sometimes mentioned the issue after the round if an opportunity arises.

[Colin L]

I recently watched, with some amazement, a player on a Par 3 put two tee shots into a green side pond and then play another from the tee safely on to the green.  The ground where lateral or back on the lie relief would be taken clearly offers a clean lie.   It would have been inappropriate to say anything while this was going on but once he was on dry land, I made sure he was aware that the last ball was in play and his score was currently 5. . He knew what he was doing , and seemed quite unfazed by it.  I've no idea what he was thinking.

[Mr. Bean]

The original story sounds like the player deliberately delayed to commence his search.

 

What if that happened without the cart and the player with his caddie sits down on the ground saying "I need to clear may head so I sit down for a while" ?

 

If I had been the referee there I would have started the clock according to my estimate when he should have been in the search area.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Mr. Bean
Typo

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, 2bGood said:

As an aside, if you are a player reading this and you are in situation with a rules official present, ask them the open ended question. "What are my options under the rules here?". Too many times players ask "Can I drop here?" My answer is "yes that would be legal drop." Where is if you ask for your options I will tell you everything you can do and you get to pick the best one.

 

I am curious to how other RO's handle this, as I don't say anything (about golf) to the players unless asked or they are about to break a rule. 

 

If the player seems to be hesitant you as a referee may always ask "do you know all your options".

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

If the player seems to be hesitant you as a referee may always ask "do you know all your options".

That's what I do

[Augster]

Walking slower to “clear his head” is fine. The ref telling the caddie that the search clock starts when he or the player gets there is also fine IMO. They may not have known the rule. 
 

As long as the player/caddie group was making their way toward the area, albeit slower than “racing” there in a cart, there is nothing wrong IMO. Golf was originally played on foot and a player SHOULD be allowed that amount of time it would take to get the area. I don’t think there are any Rules on the books that one has to move as maximum speed to get to their next shot. People walk at variable paces. Carts have variable speeds. 
 

As long as they aren’t “unduly delaying play”, they are fine. 
 

I’d even argue the player could have decided, “Caddie, I have to use the John, drive me over there real quick”. And he STILL wouldn’t be delaying the search. Players are allowed to use the bathroom. 
 

The only reason this is an issue is there were spectators involved that might find the ball before the caddie/player started their search. Without spectators, this would be a complete non-issue. The player, likely, didn’t employ the spectators to forecaddie in his likely miss spots, so he is only enjoying the benefits of having spectators. 

[Mr. Bean]

  

39 minutes ago, Augster said:

Walking slower to “clear his head” is fine. The ref telling the caddie that the search clock starts when he or the player gets there is also fine IMO. They may not have known the rule. 
 

As long as the player/caddie group was making their way toward the area, albeit slower than “racing” there in a cart, there is nothing wrong IMO. Golf was originally played on foot and a player SHOULD be allowed that amount of time it would take to get the area. I don’t think there are any Rules on the books that one has to move as maximum speed to get to their next shot. People walk at variable paces. Carts have variable speeds. 
 

As long as they aren’t “unduly delaying play”, they are fine. 
 

I’d even argue the player could have decided, “Caddie, I have to use the John, drive me over there real quick”. And he STILL wouldn’t be delaying the search. Players are allowed to use the bathroom. 
 

The only reason this is an issue is there were spectators involved that might find the ball before the caddie/player started their search. Without spectators, this would be a complete non-issue. The player, likely, didn’t employ the spectators to forecaddie in his likely miss spots, so he is only enjoying the benefits of having spectators. 

 

Exactly. But as there are spectators the player could and IMHO should have at least let his caddie to go forward. Now he is prolonging the search time which is definitively against the spirit of the Rules. A deliberate change of pace is not how this should be done.

 

FWIW, clearing his head was obviously just an excuse and a despicable act as such.

[sui generis]

I'm not employed as a mind reader. 😉

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

If I had been the referee there I would have started the clock according to my estimate when he should have been in the search area.

 

😳

 

Best of luck to you.

[Augster]

If there had been a Condition of Competition that laid out that everyone MUST use carts and everyone MUST drive as fast as possible to where there ball may be located, then I could see this being a breach. 
 

I don’t think there are any COC’s like that though. 

[jacob7071]

36 minutes ago, Augster said:

If there had been a Condition of Competition that laid out that everyone MUST use carts and everyone MUST drive as fast as possible to where there ball may be located, then I could see this being a breach. 
 

I don’t think there are any COC’s like that though. 

OP isn't asking if the player violated any rules by choosing the slower transportation option.  He's asking if the rules official overstepped b/c the comment he gave to the caddie didn't prevent a rule from being broken.  But it possibly allowed a player to take advantage of a rule he otherwise may not have taken advantage of.  

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

  

 

Exactly. But as there are spectators the player could and IMHO should have at least let his caddie to go forward. Now he is prolonging the search time which is definitively against the spirit of the Rules. A deliberate change of pace is not how this should be done.

 

FWIW, clearing his head was obviously just an excuse and a despicable act as such.

Despicable?  Because he chose to walk instead of ride a cart?  That seems harsh.  Assume the same scenario except carts aren't allowed.  Is he still despicable if he chooses to walk instead of run?

Edited August 7, 2023 by jacob7071

[Mr. Bean]

30 minutes ago, jacob7071 said:

Despicable?  Because he chose to walk instead of ride a cart?  That seems harsh.  Assume the same scenario except carts aren't allowed.  Is he still despicable if he chooses to walk instead of run?

 

Earlier in this thread I gave an example:

 

"What if that happened without the cart and the player with his caddie sits down on the ground saying "I need to clear may head so I sit down for a while" ?"

 

Would you accept that?

 

He chose to stall and that is despicable.

[Augster]

Sitting in place is not the same as walking toward the area. 

[jacob7071]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Earlier in this thread I gave an example:

 

"What if that happened without the cart and the player with his caddie sits down on the ground saying "I need to clear may head so I sit down for a while" ?"

 

Would you accept that?

 

He chose to stall and that is despicable.

Sitting down is unnecessarily delaying play.  I would characterize walking instead of riding to allow spectators more time to look as using the rules to your advantage.  Similar to using a left-handed swing to get cart path relief (assuming it's not a clearly unreasonable swing).  

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, jacob7071 said:

Sitting down is unnecessarily delaying play.  I would characterize walking instead of riding to allow spectators more time to look as using the rules to your advantage.  Similar to using a left-handed swing to get cart path relief (assuming it's not a clearly unreasonable swing).  

 

Nothing similar between those two. If you let someone else to make the left-handed stroke then it could be compared.

 

He had been riding in the cart all day. Why did he chose to walk just then? Answer: he wanted to have a longer search period than 3 minutes, so he stalled and stalling is undue delay.

[jacob7071]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Nothing similar between those two. If you let someone else to make the left-handed stroke then it could be compared.

 

He had been riding in the cart all day. Why did he chose to walk just then? Answer: he wanted to have a longer search period than 3 minutes, so he stalled and stalling is undue delay.

The comparison I was trying to make is using the rules to one's advantage.  If a left-handed swing is not unreasonable, I'm allowed to use that as a basis for cart path relief (even if the left-handed swing isn't the best option).  The rules allow it, and I can use that to my advantage to get a better lie or angle.  

 

Similarly, the rule against undue delay doesn't require you to take the fastest mode of transportation available.  It just says to play at a prompt pace.  Walking to clear my head after a bad shot isn't unreasonable, and unless I'm zig zagging around or walking clearly slower than I have all day, I wouldn't consider walking to be undue delay.  

 

Using a cart on hole 1 doesn't forfeit the option to walk on hole 2.  

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.  I just thought "despicable" was too harsh for what this guy did.  

[sui generis]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Why did he chose to walk just then?

 The player is quoted as saying, "I need to slow down and get my head straight, I am going to walk up."

 

He didn't say, "I'm going to make up some lame excuse just to fool Mr Bean."

 

I don't think your assertion that the player was being dishonest would hold up in front of the Commitee.

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, sui generis said:

 The player is quoted as saying, "I need to slow down and get my head straight, I am going to walk up."

 

He didn't say, "I'm going to make up some lame excuse just to fool Mr Bean."

 

I don't think your assertion that the player was being dishonest would hold up in front of the Commitee.

 

I believe we need to agree to disagree on that.

 

P.S. Did his caddie also need to get his head straight..?

[2bGood]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

Making players aware of the rules is generally fine. This edges closer to un-asked for advice (not RoG “advice”) so I understand your hesitance, but I still think this was okay.

 

I think you described my position well. I was hesitant, but was not certain there was an issue. 

 

Thanks all for the replies on this, very helpful to get some perspectives on this as I struggle a bit as RO about how proactive to be about sharing information with players, but not crossing lines. 

[2bGood]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:29 PM, sui generis said:

 The player is quoted as saying, "I need to slow down and get my head straight, I am going to walk up."

 

He didn't say, "I'm going to make up some lame excuse just to fool Mr Bean."

 

I don't think your assertion that the player was being dishonest would hold up in front of the Commitee.

For the record, every RO was on site a the time (both on and off duty). No one had an issue. We actually saw this throughout the event as many players were walking on and off if they had a caddie with them to drive the car.

 

In my heart of hearts I think the player walked up to allow more time for a search, but he just hit a bad shot, so wanting to slow down was feasible too.

 

Now when the caddie decided to hang back, that seemed more intentional. 

 

I can't say I had the same read as Mr Bean on this one. Players walked off and on (with their caddies hovering beside them in carts throughout the event), so when it was an advantage to walk, I was more of the thought of 'good for him'.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe we need to agree to disagree on that.

 

P.S. Did his caddie also need to get his head straight..?

Not specific to this situation, but it is typically part of the role of caddie to help a player get their head straight. 

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Not specific to this situation, but it is typically part of the role of caddie to help a player get their head straight. 

 

You wrote "before the caddie could drive away". Sounds like caddie was not trying to help there.

[Schulzmc]

Back to the original intent of the thread…

 

On our course there is a red staked penalty area. Long story short - under the old rules it was sometimes advantageous to take your drop on the other side of the penalty area to avoid a tree on your approach shot to the green. In a club match I was about to take a drop on the side of the area from which I had entered and my pro, who was following in a cart, drove up and reminded me that the drop on the other side was an option. Was he out of line doing that?