what score (s) do you want to shoot ?

[MikeW2]

Just now, Louis_Posture said:

Maybe yes, maybe no. Certainly assessing a lie and opening up a 58* or 60* L wedge requires more skill (and practice) then setting the face square with a 64* wedge.

So, if an amateur is disciplined enough to limit his 64* wedge swings to short side flop shots I expect he will score consistently better than if he attempted those shots with an open face 60* or 58* wedge.

This might be why people aren’t really agreeing with your premise…if a player showed some discipline in their game they might not be in tough spots on course which inherently would lower their scores. There would also be a need to practice with that new 64* wedge so why not just use that effort with your 58/60?

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Have you played rounds of golf with a 64* wedge?

No, but i have hit a 62 degree wedge on course and have played rounds with a guy who used one.  I’m not going to get too technical in my response, but once you get past 56-58 degrees it gets easier and easier send the high lofted club right under the ball l, barely moving it.  I would suspect most of the time your short sided youre not in the fairway/tight lie and likely in some rough, making that high lofted wedge even harder to hit unless its some large cb like wedge with 14 degrees or more of bounce.

 

 

[Louis_Posture]

3 minutes ago, MikeW2 said:

This might be why people aren’t really agreeing with your premise…if a player showed some discipline in their game they might not be in tough spots on course which inherently would lower their scores. There would also be a need to practice with that new 64* wedge so why not just use that effort with your 58/60?

Course management, choosing lines of play etc... is certainly major a difference between skill levels of players, but that's a separate topic.

Let's assume a high handicap amateur has little control of his approach shot and consistently ends up leaving his ball short side of the green- hole. So, a high trajectory short distance pitch shot is needed and at that point using a 64* is relatively easy, point-and-shoot, compared to trying to open up the face of a 58* or 60* wedge.

[MikeW2]

46 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Course management, choosing lines of play etc... is certainly major a difference between skill levels of players, but that's a separate topic.

Let's assume a high handicap amateur has little control of his approach shot and consistently ends up leaving his ball short side of the green- hole. So, a high trajectory short distance pitch shot is needed and at that point using a 64* is relatively easy, point-and-shoot, compared to trying to open up the face of a 58* or 60* wedge.

You’ve got this in your head and seem to think that opening the face of your lob wedge is exponentially more difficult than a 64 or that a high handicap can’t use his 6 iron with relatively the same effectiveness as a chipper. If that’s what you believe will work for you then you’re right, it’ll probably work for you. I personally don’t think that the equipment you have referenced is going to be all that different for a high handicap player. They are at that level because of limited skill or situations where they don’t practice properly. Those two factors are not going to change because they have added a 64 and a ChipR to the bag, they’re still lacking skill or the dedication/time to improve.

[Pnwpingi210]

Equipment matters to the point you have a decent fit.  Right length,loft,lie and a shaft that you time up well (apply all that to driver thru putter).  Thats good enough to get anyone to single digits hc.   If somebody is playing a set of 620mbs and hits a well struck 9 iron 115 yards, then yeah a set of p790s might help.
 

 Equipment matters more as your hc decreases since you have the skill to execute different shots or put yourself in better positions on the courses you play 

[Louis_Posture]

6 minutes ago, MikeW2 said:

. I personally don’t think that the equipment you have referenced is going to be all that different for a high handicap player. They are at that level because of limited skill or situations where they don’t practice properly. Those two factors are not going to change because they have added a 64 and a ChipR to the bag, they’re still lacking skill or the dedication/time to improve.

This thread topic is not limited to high handicap players. I know lots of players in the 2 - 5 index range who might benefit from a 64* wedge, or a super wide sole wedge, or a chipper club. These are players who hit it great from tee to green but rarely get a chip or pitch or bunker shot up and down. 

[MikeW2]

20 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

This thread topic is not limited to high handicap players. I know lots of players in the 2 - 5 index range who might benefit from a 64* wedge, or a super wide sole wedge, or a chipper club. These are players who hit it great from tee to green but rarely get a chip or pitch or bunker shot up and down. 

If these players rarely get up and down they aren’t real 2-5 indexes. Players that carry those caps shoot scores in mid 70’s on average, you aren’t shooting those scores without the ability to consistently get up and down.

[Louis_Posture]

1 minute ago, MikeW2 said:

If these players rarely get up and down they aren’t real 2-5 indexes. Players that carry those caps shoot scores in mid 70’s on average, you aren’t shooting those scores without the ability to consistently get up and down.

Players I know who consistently get their pitches-chips-bunker shots up and down are 0 or plus handicaps.

For example, a 3 handicap who hits it great from tee to green probably averages hitting 12 greens. For the 6 missed greens 2 might be on the fringe which he may putt. That leaves 4 missed greens (pitch, long chip, a couple of bunker shots) of which he gets it up and down for par 1 time. He shoots 75 for the day.

Lots of 2-5 index players are not aware that pitching-chipping-bunker play is causing their scoring average to be too high.

[ballzo]

I can shoot par and under but its really just a freak accident when it shows up so to expect it is not realistic. I'm pretty pleased with myself anytime I shoot in the 70's. Doesn't matter what course or what tees but for some reason to me 80 always feels like a failure. I'd say I get what I want 20-30% of the time I play. 

[MikeW2]

22 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Players I know who consistently get their pitches-chips-bunker shots up and down are 0 or plus handicaps.

For example, a 3 handicap who hits it great from tee to green probably averages hitting 12 greens. For the 6 missed greens 2 might be on the fringe which he may putt. That leaves 4 missed greens (pitch, long chip, a couple of bunker shots) of which he gets it up and down for par 1 time. He shoots 75 for the day.

Lots of 2-5 index players are not aware that pitching-chipping-bunker play is causing their scoring average to be too high.

Agree to disagree 

[Golfbit2X]

1 hour ago, Louis_Posture said:

Players I know who consistently get their pitches-chips-bunker shots up and down are 0 or plus handicaps.

For example, a 3 handicap who hits it great from tee to green probably averages hitting 12 greens. For the 6 missed greens 2 might be on the fringe which he may putt. That leaves 4 missed greens (pitch, long chip, a couple of bunker shots) of which he gets it up and down for par 1 time. He shoots 75 for the day.

Lots of 2-5 index players are not aware that pitching-chipping-bunker play is causing their scoring average to be too high.

16 handicapper here. In one of my tourneys that I've won recently, I've been able to scramble effectively at 6/16 or 37.5% (+22.5% compared to a 17 handicap) which I think was a significant factor that allowed me to secure my win.

 

I agree that scrambling is often overlooked but can be the difference maker most of the time. 

[TwistedSister]

10 hours ago, MikeW2 said:

So you have two options here, go low again or live long enough to get under your age again😂

My oncologist seems to think I'll live a long time!

[ShortGolfer]

I expect to get up and down from a bad lie at least once every nine hole round. 

Bogey saves are also fun.  Hitting the ball out of the bunker and getting an easy two putt bogey.

Scrambling is what I learned with ball striking this season.  Work on good contact and clean it up with a wedge!

Three seasons of practice golf and have yet to play an 18 hole round.

 

But my real strength may be course management.  I have two decades of gardening experience.  Getting the toughest customers at work.  Playing speed chess in High School.

Took the tough math, science, and engineering courses.  Solid building blocks for puzzling out ways to attack a course.

Edited November 17, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[MikeW2]

1 hour ago, TwistedSister said:

My oncologist seems to think I'll live a long time!

I hope he’s right!

[Roejye]

My average at my home course is 43, but I've been kinda meh there lately so I'm not really reaching that goal too often. Also a lot of the time at my home course I'm not even keeping track of the total score. I'll keep track of what I shot on the hole I'm on, but purposely don't add it up. 

 

I will say that I've made some equipment changes with the goal of keeping the score lower. 2 drivers, dropping the 60, I have a 5 iron that is more of a punch out club, and a 5 hybrid. I feel that it has helped me score better, but oftentimes it's the swing I have on the course that day that dictates my score more than anything. 

[TwistedSister]

7 hours ago, MikeW2 said:

I hope he’s right!

I working at it to prove him so!!

[Louis_Posture]

On 11/16/2023 at 10:17 PM, Golfbit2X said:

16 handicapper here. In one of my tourneys that I've won recently, I've been able to scramble effectively at 6/16 or 37.5% (+22.5% compared to a 17 handicap) which I think was a significant factor that allowed me to secure my win.

 

I agree that scrambling is often overlooked but can be the difference maker most of the time. 

Congratulations on your win.

The truth is that nobody at any level, from local club tournament to Tour event wins without having a good short game that day/week.

Tiger's astonishing streak of 142 Tour events without missing a cut includes lots of weeks where his tee to green game was off, but he saved rounds with chipping-pitching-bunker play.

[Golfbit2X]

1 hour ago, Louis_Posture said:

Congratulations on your win.

The truth is that nobody at any level, from local club tournament to Tour event wins without having a good short game that day/week.

Tiger's astonishing streak of 142 Tour events without missing a cut includes lots of weeks where his tee to green game was off, but he saved rounds with chipping-pitching-bunker play.

Yes, you can drive for show, putt for dough, but if you really want to win, you definitely have to have scrambling as your secret weapon to bring home the hardware. 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Golfbit2X said:

Yes, you can drive for show, putt for dough, but if you really want to win, you definitely have to have scrambling as your secret weapon to bring home the hardware. 

 

I hope that's sarcastic.

[b.mattay]

12 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

Congratulations on your win.

The truth is that nobody at any level, from local club tournament to Tour event wins without having a good short game that day/week.

Just not true, there are many ways to shoot a score. Often times, ball striking >>>> anything else. 

• I've won two tournaments while scrambling @10-15%. Made enough birdies to make up for it. 
• One of the times I tied my career low I did not miss a green and was -2.5 on strokes gained putting.
• I saw a guy in a Canadian amateur be 0/4 for scrambling through 2 days. One of these failed up and downs resulted in double bogey. He was still top-5 through two rounds at -11.. 

 

That being said, I like your original intent on the thread. People in general should be more conscious and specific when picking equipment. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by b.mattay

[Golfbit2X]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I hope that's sarcastic.

Huh? I don't get it...how can that be sarcastic? I'm serious about what I posted regarding scrambling. 

 

All golfers make mistakes regardless whether the person's a Tour Pro or a weekend duffer, but a golfer's scrambling ability is what we fall back on by redeeming ourselves to minimize or negate the impact of those mistakes. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Golfbit2X

[Golfbit2X]

1 hour ago, b.mattay said:

Just not true, there are many ways to shoot a score. Often times, ball striking >>>> anything else. 

• I've won two tournaments while scrambling @10-15%. Made enough birdies to make up for it. 
• One of the times I tied my career low I did not miss a green and was -2.5 on strokes gained putting.
• I saw a guy in a Canadian amateur be 0/4 for scrambling through 2 days. One of these failed up and downs resulted in double bogey. He was still top-5 through two rounds at -11.. 

 

That being said, I like your original intent on the thread. People in general should be more conscious and specific when picking equipment. 

I agree with your post too. I consider a person to be on "auto pilot mode" if the person makes a lot of Birdies and has a clean card so scrambling wouldn't be a factor. 

 

On the other hand, a golfer who makes more than a few bad shots has to "grind it out" and lean on his scrambling ability to minimize the impact. 

 

It it the latter that I admire more because that golfer who has a great scrambling ability shows that he or she can perform very well under greater pressure to execute difficult shots to save Par or manufacture Birdies from off the green. 

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, b.mattay said:

Just not true, there are many ways to shoot a score. Often times, ball striking >>>> anything else. 

• I've won two tournaments while scrambling @10-15%. Made enough birdies to make up for it. 
• One of the times I tied my career low I did not miss a green and was -2.5 on strokes gained putting.
• I saw a guy in a Canadian amateur be 0/4 for scrambling through 2 days. One of these failed up and downs resulted in double bogey. He was still top-5 through two rounds at -11.. 

 

That being said, I like your original intent on the thread. People in general should be more conscious and specific when picking equipment. 

By "scrambling" do you mean a missed green ?

Certainly a player can have a round where he/she hits 18 greens but that accomplishment is so rare it is irrelevant to consistent low scoring golf.

I believe the Tour average is 5 to 6 missed greens per round, yet scoring average is 71. Obviously getting the ball up and down when missing a green is imperative to shooting consistently low scores.

[Golfbit2X]

1 minute ago, Louis_Posture said:

By "scrambling" do you mean a missed green ?

Certainly a player can have a round where he/she hits 18 greens but that accomplishment is so rare it is irrelevant to consistent low scoring golf.

I believe the Tour average is 5 to 6 missed greens per round, yet scoring average is 71. Obviously getting the ball up and down when missing a green is imperative to shooting consistently low scores.

Yes, scrambling may involve missed greens but I think what it really means is the ability to save Par after mishiting a previous shot. 

[Louis_Posture]

4 minutes ago, Golfbit2X said:

Yes, scrambling may involve missed greens but I think what it really means is the ability to save Par after mishiting a previous shot. 

Players regularly mishit shots on a hole yet still reach the green in regulation, so I doubt the term scrambling refers to mishit shots.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Golfbit2X said:

Huh? I don't get it...how can that be sarcastic? I'm serious about what I posted regarding scrambling.

 

Well, okay, then you're just wrong.

 

"Yes, you can drive for show, putt for dough, but if you really want to win, you definitely have to have scrambling as your secret weapon to bring home the hardware."

 

That's not true. You're wrong that you "definitely" have to have your scrambling to win.

 

Pretty simple, really. And just the facts here…

[Golfbit2X]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Well, okay, then you're just wrong.

 

"Yes, you can drive for show, putt for dough, but if you really want to win, you definitely have to have scrambling as your secret weapon to bring home the hardware."

 

That's not true. You're wrong that you "definitely" have to have your scrambling to win.

 

Pretty simple, really. And just the facts here…

I was referring to most golfers who make mistakes.

 

I admit that there are golfers that will have clean scorecards so scrambling may not be required but for most of us, it is crucial that we rely on our scrambling to pull through in order to bring home the hardware. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Well, okay, then you're just wrong.

 

"Yes, you can drive for show, putt for dough, but if you really want to win, you definitely have to have scrambling as your secret weapon to bring home the hardware."

 

That's not true. You're wrong that you "definitely" have to have your scrambling to win.

 

Pretty simple, really. And just the facts here…

Man I know you're a fact-providing robot sent from the future to combat golf errors one fallacy at a time, but it's ok to hit the "off" switch once in a while and not take every post so seriously and literally. Sometimes you gotta wear shorts on the golf course and let those calves breath. 🤪 

[CSagan]

55 minutes ago, Golfbit2X said:

I was referring to most golfers who make mistakes.

 

I admit that there are golfers that will have clean scorecards so scrambling may not be required but for most of us, it is crucial that we rely on our scrambling to pull through in order to bring home the hardware. 

I think he’s just trying to say that amateurs can putt as good as tour players some days and we can be really close to as good as them on scrambling but we’ll never come close to their ball striking and approach accuracy. 

[bladehunter]

On 11/16/2023 at 11:50 PM, Louis_Posture said:

Players I know who consistently get their pitches-chips-bunker shots up and down are 0 or plus handicaps.

For example, a 3 handicap who hits it great from tee to green probably averages hitting 12 greens. For the 6 missed greens 2 might be on the fringe which he may putt. That leaves 4 missed greens (pitch, long chip, a couple of bunker shots) of which he gets it up and down for par 1 time. He shoots 75 for the day.

Lots of 2-5 index players are not aware that pitching-chipping-bunker play is causing their scoring average to be too high.

I agree with this with a caveat.    There does exist natural shortgame players who have tee game issues.  They can be 3-5handicaps. It’s odd. But I can name a couple.    Shortgame is like putting , it’s either very natural polished with work or very much mechanical effort over a long period of time.  We all know which pro players were born preforming magic with a wedge, vs The one’s that are serviceable via instruction and work.  
 

so yes. The ones who don’t take to it naturally can absolutely drop shots if they learn to get up and down at a proficient level. 1 out of 4 isn’t that.