To the instructors here, how honest would you say you are with you're students?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

32 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

So.....we are going to take a 75 year old 14 and take 10 strokes off his hdcp...in a year? 75.....you mean the guy with the flag on his cart?

Perhaps greater realization of what sort of changes in playing golf require which sort of time commitment, would be helpful for the golf student public?  I certainly would be ignorant of it, without reading previous posts from yourself, posts and blog/IG content from Monte & iacas, other instructors.

 

I was nodding along too, at first, "That sounds reasonable...," until I did the math.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, tomba51 said:

Wow, just wow. There are plenty of 75 year old guys who regularly break 80 (by regularly I mean about half their rounds, give or take), are single digit handicaps, and do not have a flag on their cart. A 14 handicapper can already break 80 occasionally so having a goal of wanting to do it more often is not unrealistic.

But you're not talking about the 75 year olds that already regularly break 80; you're talking about the 75 yo that can barely break 90.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, TobesSC said:

  I was pretty frustrated cause low runners are not the issue and even if they were, don't you want to see my current approach first?

On that point, did you point out to him that those shots weren't a problem for you?  

 

I too, have found it frustrating when an instructor's gameplan template seems to be both inflexible or much worse, unexplainable when you ask questions.  It may be just indicative of a bad fit.

 

So I don't end up writing a book here, I basically want to know with an instructor: 

Why this move vs something else?  What improvements will this different movement provide me? 

How long will it take me to implement this move, given X practice schedule and your assessment of my skill and ability to learn? 

What drills do I do to cement this new movement and,

Which metrics can I assess to determine my progress?

[virtuoso]

19 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Perhaps greater realization of what sort of changes in playing golf require which sort of time commitment, would be helpful for the golf student public?  I certainly would be ignorant of it, without reading previous posts from yourself, posts and blog/IG content from Monte, other instructors.

 

I was nodding along too, at first, "That sounds reasonable...," until I did the math.

Yeah, the honesty part is not about the guy's talent or current swing sucky-ness. It's really about the work needed to reach certain goals.

 

And "honestly", to break 80 regularly ( I mean more than half the time) on a golf course that isn't a complete pitch-n-putt, you'd have to be a legit 5 hdcp....especially the way they calculate hdcp indexes these days.

 

A lot of the the 75 year olds that are currently breaking 80, used to be a low single digit, if not scratch, in the olden times. They are getting worse too but they started lower.

Edited December 18, 2023 by virtuoso

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

...And "honestly", to break 80 regularly ( I mean more than half the time) on a golf course that isn't in a pitch-n-putt, you'd have to be a legit 5 hdcp....especially the way they calculate hdcp indexes these days.

 

Lou Stegner on twitter/X has had a few examples that've been eye-opening.  "Scratch" handicaps never breaking par and averaging 79 on their course. (due to the rating of their course and top 8 average of 20), etc...

 

Still going to be an achievement to work to breaking 80 >50% of the time for someone who is a 15 now.  Which means they likely average 90 currently?  More? 

 

That's a lot of wood for someone who likely can't do the quickest way to go from 90 to 80---just drive the ball straighter and farther, and shoot for the middle-back of greens.

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Lou Stegner on twitter/X has had a few examples that've been eye-opening.  "Scratch" handicaps never breaking par and averaging 79 on their course. (due to the rating of their course and top 8 average of 20), etc...

 

Still going to be an achievement to work to breaking 80 >50% of the time for someone who is a 15 now.  Which means they likely average 90 currently?  More? 

 

That's a lot of wood for someone who likely can't do the quickest way to go from 90 to 80---just drive the ball straighter and farther, and shoot for the middle-back of greens.

Yeah, a 14 is basically bogey golf. 

 

I have no problem giving the guy a lesson and trying to help him. I'm glad he's a sunny-eyed optimist--it's a better way to live your life. But if he started asking for timelines on his rapid 1 year decent to a 5 hdcp, I'd have to change the subject and distract him with a wildlife sighting on the range.

[nvr3putt]

On 12/16/2023 at 9:41 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

My approach is not right for everyone.  If someone doesn’t like my approach they will find someone else who they do like and that’s not only OK, its best for both of us.

 

Why should both of us be unhappy?

You sound like a marriage counselor.

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, nvr3putt said:

You sound like a marriage counselor.

Golfers are so emotional about their golf game, it’s not much different.

[Lobby]

I had a former touring pro tell me there’s nothing wrong with my swing. That I’m just old and out of shape. 
 

So I joined a gym and worked with a physical trainer. 
 

Now, one year later, I putt much better

[iacas]

2 hours ago, tomba51 said:

Well, yeah, if a 75 year old 14 handicapper tells you that his goal is to win the next Masters, we can all agree that is unrealistic. But if that same 75 year old 14 handicapper says that his goal is to regularly break 80 within a year, it is up to the instructor to support that goal and help the golfer achieve it, not to tell the golfer that it is unrealistic.

 

Here's the thing… you can come up with examples that I'd think are perfectly reasonable.

 

But I can also name examples that even you would likely make what you said unreasonable. If you recall, you said "But if an instructor tells you that your goals are unachievable run for the nearest exit ASAP. That tells you as much about the instructor's ability to teach as it does about your own potential."

 

My response was only, said another way: I can give you examples of things that are laughably outrageous. Have you ever had a 48-year-old 14-handicapper tell you that he wants to play on the Champions Tour in two years? Or a local guy who's never even won a city tournament tell you that he wants to win a PGA Tour event within three years?

 

1 hour ago, tomba51 said:

Wow, just wow. There are plenty of 75 year old guys who regularly break 80 (by regularly I mean about half their rounds, give or take), are single digit handicaps, and do not have a flag on their cart. A 14 handicapper can already break 80 occasionally so having a goal of wanting to do it more often is not unrealistic.

 

• Not many 14s "break 80 occasionally" and…
• "regularly" ≠ "more often."

Here's the thing: just admit you made an "all/every" type statement when you shouldn't have. Because sometimes students do tell you unrealistic goals, and it's in their best interests if you re-shape it. Set proper goals, with realistic expectations. Realistic doesn't mean mundane, easy goals. You can still stretch and push.

 

But sometimes golfers are dumb, and you have to find a nice way to let them know they're being dumb. 😄 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Here's the thing… you can come up with examples that I'd think are perfectly reasonable.

 

But I can also name examples that even you would likely make what you said unreasonable. If you recall, you said "But if an instructor tells you that your goals are unachievable run for the nearest exit ASAP. That tells you as much about the instructor's ability to teach as it does about your own potential."

 

My response was only, said another way: I can give you examples of things that are laughably outrageous. Have you ever had a 48-year-old 14-handicapper tell you that he wants to play on the Champions Tour in two years? Or a local guy who's never even won a city tournament tell you that he wants to win a PGA Tour event within three years?

 

 

• Not many 14s "break 80 occasionally" and…
• "regularly" ≠ "more often."

Here's the thing: just admit you made an "all/every" type statement when you shouldn't have. Because sometimes students do tell you unrealistic goals, and it's in their best interests if you re-shape it. Set proper goals, with realistic expectations. Realistic doesn't mean mundane, easy goals. You can still stretch and push.

 

But sometimes golfers are dumb, and you have to find a nice way to let them know they're being dumb. 😄 

I have a current example.  I have a client who has been playing a year and I’ve been working with him about 6 weeks.

 

He’s lamenting why he doesn’t have tour impact.  I said it takes more than 6 weeks of 30 minutes a day of practice.

 

I had another client ask how long it would take him to get a tour level swing practicing 5 days a week for two hours.

 

i said never.

 

Both were initially taken aback and then both had the same reaction when I explained that guys on tour spent 40-60 hours a week for 10-20 years or more to achieve those dynamics.  
 

Both had almost the same reaction…..”You must think I’m a real dumb***.”

 

I laughed and said no, but part of our job is to manage expectations and limits or else progress that doesn’t meet those wild expectations leads to even more frustration. 

 

The article I wrote for this site 10 years ago shows how unrealistic ams expectations are with results.  15 caps getting mad when they hit a shot from 150 that’s inside the tour average.  Getting mad when they miss an 8 foot putt because they think tour players have a 90% make rate from that distance.

 

 

If I went to a basketball camp to help me with my jumper and asked how long it would be before I could dunk on a 7 foot NBA center, they would laugh me out of the gym, but golfers expectations are often as lofty as that.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[MK7Golf21]

my dad is the opposite, doesn't think he can improve but he doesn't go to the range at all. Plays with his friends nearly every morning during warm weather. I took him to an instructor one time and ever since then he only wants me to teach him since I've been the only one who could help him.

 

I have two students, my dad and my brother, guess his son too. My dad has one of the most unique swings I've seen and is a tough cookie to crack, took me a while to figure his swing out. He doesn't whip the clubhead inside, he naturally takes it back on plane, club head outside his hands and then picks it straight up in the air with a baseball ball bat position. Very baseball bat type swing which is what he grew up playing. Uses the baseball bat two handed grip as well. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I laughed and said no, but part of our job is to manage expectations and limits or else progress that doesn’t meet those wild expectations leads to even more frustration.

 

That's the nut of it right there.

 

It's particularly bad when you're working with a kid and the parent is the one with the unrealistic expectations. Both you and the kid feel it, and it can be damaging.

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That's the nut of it right there.

 

It's particularly bad when you're working with a kid and the parent is the one with the unrealistic expectations. Both you and the kid feel it, and it can be damaging.

I have a reputation that I don’t allow abusive parents on the lesson tee, so I don’t get too many of those.

 

 

[Soloman1]

Emotional golf. Sounds like a good book title.

 

Golf addiction is real. Some people want to be in the top 10% of golfers, but they might be only in the the top half of their career field. If they only knew the secret.

 

A grandiose dream is fine. It’s their dream. How about we learn how to not hit a half inch behind the ball first? Go all out Goggins after that.

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Emotional golf. Sounds like a good book title.

 

Golf addiction is real. Some people want to be in the top 10% of golfers, but they might be only in the the top half of their career field. If they only knew the secret.

 

A grandiose dream is fine. It’s their dream. How about we learn how to not hit a half inch behind the ball first? Go all out Goggins after that.

I had not heard of Goggins and had to look him up.  Some schtick there!  Fat, lazy and unfocused!  LOL I have known many very successful people who were fat and some smoked and drank a lot but they worked hard and made a great deal of what most people would call success.  Several were incredibly intelligent far beyond anything Goggins can imagine I would think.  Personally I did my best work when I was working 24/7 for a startup and did not workout or run much if at all as there was no time for that.  I 'succeeded' there because I never gave up no matter how far under water I was. 

 

I have never applied that same mindset to golf LOL.  I really don't know how that would work, if I quit accepting failure and worked 100% to succeed at hitting golf shots.  Oh well, my body would not hold up to a 24/7 golf practice and play routine anyway.  

[Phabs]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:14 AM, skim4 said:

If i'm paying an instructor I want the cold hard facts/ opinions. Tell me my swing is trash and how to fix it. 

Not a fan of sugar coated golf instruction but its probably necessary for beginners. 

 

Not an instructor. 

You'd of liked my college coach. 🤣

Edited December 19, 2023 by Phabs

[HitSomeMissSome]

The funniest line I’ve heard from a top coach, “I’m not your Club Pro…I don’t have to be nice to you.” 
 

It’s hard for your home pro to tell it like it is. They are masters of putting lipstick on a pig.

 

A coach worth is fee tells you why you struggle, shows you steps to refine your swing, encourages the change and won’t let you cut corners. 
 

 

[JamesFoote]

A question for the coaches: do you ask new students how willing they are to make large changes, or if they want more short term gains?

 

I ask as I think these are important snippets of information to know. I’m willing to suffer for as long as it takes if it makes me a better golfer for the next 20 years. The process of improvement is as fun to me as actually playing.

 

But I’m sure many people want that instant satisfaction, and want to be hitting the ball better by the end of the session without putting any real work in.

 

How do you retain these short-sighted golfers and actually get some proper lasting improvements for them? It just seems like it’d be so frustrating dealing with people like that.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, JamesFoote said:

A question for the coaches: do you ask new students how willing they are to make large changes, or if they want more short term gains?

 

I don't ask them directly (because in my experience if you ask them, they'll lie… because they don't know what a "big" change is.

 

For example, if someone has a big tournament in a month, I might approach that student differently than if it's late October in Erie, PA and the student isn't playing meaningful golf until April at least.

 

31 minutes ago, JamesFoote said:

I’m willing to suffer for as long as it takes if it makes me a better golfer for the next 20 years.

 

Probably shouldn't/doesn't have to be "suffering." 😄 

 

31 minutes ago, JamesFoote said:

But I’m sure many people want that instant satisfaction, and want to be hitting the ball better by the end of the session without putting any real work in.

 

Many who say they are willing to put in the work don't actually want to, and really want the instant satisfaction. I sometimes say in lessons "I don't care how you hit the next six balls; just do this thing [whatever I'm asking them to do]." Relieves a little stress from them, frees them up to hit it.

Sometimes I use AlmostGolf balls to help them get over feeling great impact.

 

31 minutes ago, JamesFoote said:

How do you retain these short-sighted golfers and actually get some proper lasting improvements for them? It just seems like it’d be so frustrating dealing with people like that.

 

Sometimes I don't. I had a guy take four or five lessons, and eventually basically told him if he wasn't going to practice between lessons (like, literally no practice, not even five minutes four times a week in a mirror in his house), then I wasn't the guy for him as I'm not a magician. (I only thought the last part in my head; I didn't say that part to him. 😉.)