Do Not Pull On the Club from the Top of the Backswing...Stop the Handle Late In Downswing.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

He clearly has no clue. And probably hasn't really watched (and certainly hasn't understood) the whole video.

 

No, that's pretty clear.

 

Nor has he watched this video as recommended to him:

 

 

I think he's also not understanding how physics uses the words "work" or "couple."

 

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

At this point Dr Sasho is talking about linear work (i.e. force along the hand path) and at the 7:00(ish) mark highlights that the force, while it's a smaller component of the total force being applied, is positive.

 

Yep. Not "braking."

[MonteScheinblum]

37 minutes ago, bcc624 said:

Can I get the cliff notes for this thread? What should my intention be with my arms?

Accelerate the arms on time. For some means do nothing, for some it means you have to do something.

 

The rest is self righteous, urine marking

Edited February 4 by MonteScheinblum

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, jonsnow said:

How long until Netflix makes this into a series? I need something new to binge. 

So far, this is how the cast sketches out. These are tentatively confirmed with the agents for the Netflix series.

 

Soloman: Tom Hanks

Cav: Johnny Depp

Iacas: Cillian Murphy

Niblick (jonsnow): James Franco

 

 

Still in negotiations:

 

Bradley Cooper wants a ton of money to play Monte Scheinblum

 

Jake Gyllenhaal and Matthew McConaughey are fighting over playing Deep Face (Valtiel). Gyllenhaal has the edge based on the audition.

 

Daniel Day Lewis coming out of retirement to play Big Brother (Zitlow).

 

Robert Downey Jr has been approached to play Righty to Lefty

 

Late entry: Jason Segal for Gandalf

Edited February 4 by virtuoso

[Hidraw]

13 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is the most efficient way. 

 

Notice that to transfer the energy to the ball when he threw it into the ground behind the ball his hands didn't keep going like you suggested...they stopped. That is with just a golf ball in his hands....imagine how long it would take to actually stop the handle while holding an actual golf club. He also demonstrates a stop the handle drill just like I posted using two alignment sticks. 

 

The body is applying a braking force to the handle end of club in order to transfer energy onward. If the handle is accelerating at impact, a large percentage of energy was never transferred to the club head and it will be less efficient 100% of the time.

 

@iacas the negative couple is demonstrated in this video right at shaft parallel like Dr. MacKenzie mentioned...especially with the alignment sticks. I know you aren't disagreeing with what he literally said. Why do you keep putting this on me? HE, Dr. MacKenzie, literally said the golfer begins to work in the opposite direction of the club head's travel in the video YOU posted. 

 

You do agree with the kinematic sequence right, the acceleration and deceleration of segments of the body to transfer energy from the ground to club head? So being that I assume you do because it is fact, that means that the hands have to be slowing before impact to give the club head time to speed up to its maximum prior to impact, or more accurately, the low point of the swing arc.

 

The hands should not be accelerating through impact if you intend to be your most efficient. The hands are applying a braking force to the handle end of the club as they have to in order for the kinematic sequence to remain intact. If you are disagreeing with that, you are incorrect.

 

@Hidraw  @Zitlow

I mostly agree with your statements above, but ...
1.  I hate the moment couple concept, I do not want it in my head while swinging, or any intention about forces on the wrists.  They are reactive forces to what I do elsewhere.
2.  Let's just consider the left hand and wrist alone as a hinge for the club to swing around.  The braking of the hand is NOT the same as locking up the wrist like in you demo.  We want that hinge to be well oiled and frictionless.
3.  When the club is above the hand path (before P6) you want to accelerate the hand forward.  This is obvious.
4.  When the club is below the hand path (after P6) you want to decelerate the hand, keeping on accelerating the hand will stall the release of the club.

 

[Zitlow]

Perfect form, he’s not dropping his arm and/or casting the club. He’s throwing it. 

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

24 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Perfect form, he’s not dropping his arm and/or casting the club. He’s throwing it. 

 

 

 

That was a really nice transition. Didn’t artificially lay the club down.

[naj959]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

That was a really nice transition. Didn’t artificially lay the club down.

Foot work was excellent 👌🏽 

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, Hidraw said:

I mostly agree with your statements above, but ...
1.  I hate the moment couple concept, I do not want it in my head while swinging, or any intention about forces on the wrists.  They are reactive forces to what I do elsewhere.
2.  Let's just consider the left hand and wrist alone as a hinge for the club to swing around.  The braking of the hand is NOT the same as locking up the wrist like in you demo.  We want that hinge to be well oiled and frictionless.
3.  When the club is above the hand path (before P6) you want to accelerate the hand forward.  This is obvious.
4.  When the club is below the hand path (after P6) you want to decelerate the hand, keeping on accelerating the hand will stall the release of the club.

 

I could understand you having missed reality if you didn't watch Sasho's video despite it being posted multiple times in the thread, but how do you casually quote that post without bothering to read any of what's been said in response to it already? If you had you'd already know there isn't active braking of the hands or club in the swing. betarho's informed snippet regarding it is just above yours, meaning it was quoted again before you posted your reply.

 

Are you posting just to see your words on the page? What you're saying has no basis in fact. It's not what physics dictates should or is happening during a swing. Please explain where you're coming up with your hot take that "you want to decelerate the hand" actively at any point in the downswing. Please explain as well how you believe this feat is being accomplished. 

[Hidraw]

40 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

I could understand you having missed reality if you didn't watch Sasho's video despite it being posted multiple times in the thread, but how do you casually quote that post without bothering to read any of what's been said in response to it already? If you had you'd already know there isn't active braking of the hands or club in the swing. betarho's informed snippet regarding it is just above yours, meaning it was quoted again before you posted your reply.

 

Are you posting just to see your words on the page? What you're saying has no basis in fact. It's not what physics dictates should or is happening during a swing. Please explain where you're coming up with your hot take that "you want to decelerate the hand" actively at any point in the downswing. Please explain as well how you believe this feat is being accomplished. 

The club rotates to line its center of mass to the direction of force at the hand.   During club rease, one could change the direction of the force at the hand by pulling upward and backward through the left shoulder.

I am too lazy to watch Sasho's video in details.  Is the force along the path measured at the point mid hands or at the left hand or at the right hand?  Forward acceleration along the left hand path during release is not desirable.

Edited February 4 by Hidraw

[virtuoso]

The golf ball could always be placed in a different spot but the strategy to speed the club up to impact, regardless of ball location would always be the same. The multiple segment slow down necessary to transfer energy to club would always be different. So if you think that managing slow down of the segments in the kinematic chain is consciously managed, you have a tragically misguided understanding of how the golf swing works.
 

This fundamental reality will of course fall on deaf ears so l’ll now return to my unserious contributions to this thread…..because this thread is not serious.

[Hidraw]

2 hours ago, Hidraw said:

The club rotates to line its center of mass to the direction of force at the hand.   During club rease, one could change the direction of the force at the hand by pulling upward and backward through the left shoulder.

I am too lazy to watch Sasho's video in details.  Is the force along the path measured at the point mid hands or at the left hand or at the right hand?  Forward acceleration along the left hand path during release is not desirable.

@PedronNiall,

Upon your comment, I did watch Dr Mackenzie's videos in details.  Very well made and scientific.
Now I understand what is meant by the net couple and net force <--> moment of force.

I also accept that the for the golf swing in a curved hand path, the tangential force component of the net force decreasing fast but still positive before impact.  So the hands are still being accelerated forward abeit at decreasing rates.

This suits my intuition fine and the club still seeking to line its center of mass to the direction of the pull through the left shoulder - and the tangential acceleration decreases as the leverage is decreases.

Now my concept of braking at the hinge is applicable to the hinge in linear motion apparently not in our golf swing.

Quoting some wise words from @virtuoso just posted, like he know what I am goint to say next.
 

4 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The golf ball could always be placed in a different spot but the strategy to speed the club up to impact, regardless of ball location would always be the same. The multiple segment slow down necessary to transfer energy to club would always be different. So if you think that managing slow down of the segments in the kinematic chain is consciously managed, you have a tragically misguided understanding of how the golf swing works.
 

This fundamental reality will of course fall on deaf ears so l’ll now return to my unserious contributions to this thread…..because this thread is not serious.

@virtuoso
Hi coach,

I was going to suggest an alternative alias for you as deep cover - the Artist. 

But apparently, what you say here very scientific and relevant.  But can I pin my upper left arm to my chest during release as an intent to slow the left arm swing? 🙂




 

[virtuoso]

28 minutes ago, Hidraw said:

@virtuoso
Hi coach,

I was going to suggest an alternative alias for you as deep cover - the Artist. 

But apparently, what you say here very scientific and relevant.  But can I pin my upper left arm to my chest during release as an intent to slow the left arm swing? 🙂

…..as long as it’s pronounced the “Arteest”

 

You can use up your reservoir of energy trying to keep the left arm pinned consciously, as your subconscious flips you off and yanks the left arm off your chest to complete throw out to the ball….but I wouldn’t advise it.

Edited February 4 by virtuoso

[virtuoso]

…..furthermore, some of these hairbrained theories could survive in the wild longer if they were demonstrated in a plausible fashion, but they are either never demonstrated, or in the strange case of R2L, they are theorized in one way and demonstrated in another.

Edited February 4 by virtuoso

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Hidraw said:

The club rotates to line its center of mass to the direction of force at the hand.

 

No. It's too much to get into but suffice to say… that's not right.

 

5 hours ago, Hidraw said:

During club rease, one could change the direction of the force at the hand by pulling upward and backward through the left shoulder.

 

Someone could do this, and occasionally you'll change the shoulder plane of someone's swing… but it doesn't just happen "during club release" it happens throughout the downswing, given how incredibly short "club release" time is. No time at all to "do" something then let alone affect something else so far down the chain. The club is going where it's going and takes awhile to change it at that point.

 

5 hours ago, Hidraw said:

Forward acceleration along the left hand path during release is not desirable.

 

Nobody has said it is.

 

1 hour ago, Hidraw said:

 

Now I understand what is meant by the net couple and net force <--> moment of force.

 

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

1 hour ago, Hidraw said:

So the hands are still being accelerated forward abeit at decreasing rates.

 

Again… ugh. Terminology is the least of your problems, I think, but it's still a problem.

 

Look, in physics, the word "acceleration" has a definition - in one sense it means there's a net force on an object. If there is a net force, the object is accelerating (if forces neutralize, it doesn't - it remains in motion or at rest). An object spinning at a constant angular speed is also constantly accelerating… because it is changing direction constantly. An object slowing down (sometimes due to simple friction) is accelerating, though we often express it as negatively doing so.

 

But the hands are not being "accelerated" in the lay use of the word forward at impact, no. The hands are both in physics terms accelerating both linearly and rotationally (whether positive or negative depends on how you've defined positive and negative directions here, but the linear and angular rates of speed are decreasing).

 

It's this slowing that "releases" the club, but also, the release of the club also slows the hands a bit. They act on each other, but there's no active "braking" of the hands by the human being.

 

1 hour ago, Hidraw said:

This suits my intuition fine and the club still seeking to line its center of mass to the direction of the pull through the left shoulder…

 

You're still off-base on that one. It's not happening like that at all.

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

in the strange case of R2L, they are theorized in one way and demonstrated in another.

He understands "golf is a game of opposites" just as he understands braking.

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, johnrobison said:

He understands "golf is a game of opposites" just as he understands braking.

R2L is an AI generated character with the counter-intuitive parameter  turned up to max value.

[Hilts1969]

11 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Perfect form, he’s not dropping his arm and/or casting the club. He’s throwing it. 

 

 

 

 

He's doing both actually 

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, Hidraw said:

@PedronNiall,

Upon your comment, I did watch Dr Mackenzie's videos in details.  Very well made and scientific.
Now I understand what is meant by the net couple and net force <--> moment of force.

I also accept that the for the golf swing in a curved hand path, the tangential force component of the net force decreasing fast but still positive before impact.  So the hands are still being accelerated forward abeit at decreasing rates.

This suits my intuition fine and the club still seeking to line its center of mass to the direction of the pull through the left shoulder - and the tangential acceleration decreases as the leverage is decreases.

Now my concept of braking at the hinge is applicable to the hinge in linear motion apparently not in our golf swing.

I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. I recommend that you take the time to watch it again along with some of the AMG and other videos that discuss what actually happens in the swing. Not being mean--just honest because there's no value in you remaining misinformed of the realities of the swing--but no, what happens in he swing as explained by Sasho, et al, does not align with your intuition, period.  

 

I thought I had a great swing--which of course meant I must have understood what needed to occur during the swing--because people complimented me on it all the time, asked me for advice, and I hit the ball pretty well. I found out the not so fun way via increasing pain over time that I, in fact, had some very consistent swing flaws that I overcame with great hand-eye coordination and athletic ability. This was proven out once I got on video. For context, even scratch to plus handicaps I played with didn't notice my issues because I did such a good job of compensating for them. 

 

Once I learned what needed to be fixed I began actively working on it via things I mostly first came across here and through some simple changes/techniques a good instructor suggested to me. I was wrong about what I thought I had going on in my swing and what I should be doing to make a good one. Once I accepted that and learned best practices to make a sound, repeatable, safe swing I improved to play even better golf and did it far more easily than before.

 

I laugh a little bit when I think about how inefficient I used to be. I can feel how much less effort it takes to swing soundly than to compensate for bad technique and feel the club doing much better work on the ball when it's delivered correctly. 

 

I can promise you if you start coming at this as a student who wants to learn instead of someone who feels they already have it all figured out you'll get a lot farther with a lot less pain, both frustration and injury-wise.

[Hidraw]

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

The club rotates to line its center of mass to the direction of force at the hand.

 

No. It's too much to get into but suffice to say… that's not right.

Nice for you to again put efforts to dispute my post. 

How is that not right?
What is the difference with my statement from the presentation given by Dr Mackenzie.

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

5 hours ago, Hidraw said:

So the hands are still being accelerated forward abeit at decreasing rates.

 

Again… ugh. Terminology is the least of your problems, I think, but it's still a problem.

 

Look, in physics, the word "acceleration" has a definition - in one sense it means there's a net force on an object. If there is a net force, the object is accelerating (if forces neutralize, it doesn't - it remains in motion or at rest). An object spinning at a constant angular speed is also constantly accelerating… because it is changing direction constantly. An object slowing down (sometimes due to simple friction) is accelerating, though we often express it as negatively doing so.

 

But the hands are not being "accelerated" in the lay use of the word forward at impact, no. The hands are both in physics terms accelerating both linearly and rotationally (whether positive or negative depends on how you've defined positive and negative directions here, but the linear and angular rates of speed are decreasing).

 

It's this slowing that "releases" the club, but also, the release of the club also slows the hands a bit. They act on each other, but there's no active "braking" of the hands by the human being.

I said "accelerated forward" and then you lectured me about linear and angular accelerations.
We always speak under a given context.  The context here is my dialogues with @PedronNiall
I could have have said "accelerated tangentially forward along the handpath" but this is superfluous given the context.

I am ready to learn from you.  Please provide substance not just retorts.

Edited February 4 by Hidraw

[Hidraw]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. I recommend that you take the time to watch it again along with some of the AMG and other videos that discuss what actually happens in the swing. Not being mean--just honest because there's no value in you remaining misinformed of the realities of the swing--but no, what happens in he swing as explained by Sasho, et al, does not align with your intuition, period.  

 

I thought I had a great swing--which of course meant I must have understood what needed to occur during the swing--because people complimented me on it all the time, asked me for advice, and I hit the ball pretty well. I found out the not so fun way via increasing pain over time that I, in fact, had some very consistent swing flaws that I overcame with great hand-eye coordination and athletic ability. This was proven out once I got on video. For context, even scratch to plus handicaps I played with didn't notice my issues because I did such a good job of compensating for them. 

 

Once I learned what needed to be fixed I began actively working on it via things I mostly first came across here and through some simple changes/techniques a good instructor suggested to me. I was wrong about what I thought I had going on in my swing and what I should be doing to make a good one. Once I accepted that and learned best practices to make a sound, repeatable, safe swing I improved to play even better golf and did it far more easily than before.

 

I laugh a little bit when I think about how inefficient I used to be. I can feel how much less effort it takes to swing soundly than to compensate for bad technique and feel the club doing much better work on the ball when it's delivered correctly. 

 

I can promise you if you start coming at this as a student who wants to learn instead of someone who feels they already have it all figured out you'll get a lot farther with a lot less pain, both frustration and injury-wise.

I do read a lot of books and papers on golf, instructional and research based and that also helps my swing tremendously.
That does not mean I read everything and can take in everything I read correcly.  Of course, the Nesbit's paper as reference in this thread also depicts possitive but decreasing tangential acceleration to impact.

I get turned off by commercialization of researchwork and ignored a few that I shouldn't have.

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

Nice for you to again put efforts to dispute my post.

 

You're welcome. 😛 

 

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

How is that not right?

 

The video is like 15 minutes long or something, so I'm not sure what part you're talking about. The club is constantly seeking to be in line with the direction of force, but things get complicated when that direction is changing not only direction but magnitude.

 

The club lines up at impact because the hands slow so the club "kicks out" or "releases" a bit. It doesn't release because you "pull up" or back with the left shoulder suddenly. The left shoulder is just going on its arc. It's more the speed and so on of the hands that release the club.

 

The vector pointing at the human swinging the club or "going normal" is just the human holding onto the club while the club pulls out away from the human.

 

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

I said "accelerated forward" and then you lectured me about linear and angular accelerations.

 

Because "accelerated forward" doesn't really make sense. Your words lack precision, but the hands in the linear sense are not accelerating forward, nor in the angular sense, either (we typically call this the lead arm, though).

 

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

I could have have said "accelerated tangentially forward along the handpath" but this is superfluous given the context.

 

But… they aren't. Not after about P5.5. Peak linear hand speed is around P5.5. That's part of how the club "releases."

 

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

I am ready to learn from you.  Please provide substance not just retorts.

 

Telling you when you've gotten things wrong is teaching you, too, and to be honest… it takes a lot less time. To teach you all of club dynamics… inverse dynamics, the physics, biomechanics, whatever… could take a looooooong time.

 

But, also, consider asking questions rather than making (often incorrect) statements. If you asked questions, someone might be able to answer them. I don't know that it would be me, but someone might, or at least they can point you in the right direction. Saying "no, that's not right, because of x and y" also does that, though.

 

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

Of course, the Nesbit's paper as reference in this thread also depicts possitive but decreasing tangential acceleration to impact.

 

What on earth is "positive but decreasing tangential acceleration"?

 

Here are some true statements (assume every position is "roughly"):

• The handle speed is linearly accelerating (speeding up) from P4 to P5.5 (again, "roughly P5.5").
• The handle speed is linearly decelerating (slowing down, negatively accelerating) from P5.5 to P7.
• Angularly, the left arm is acting similarly to the linear hand speed, seeing as how they're almost the same thing.
• The club "releases" in part because the hands slow down after P5.5.
• The act of the club "releasing" acts on the hands, too, aiding in them "negatively accelerating."
• The tangential force is positive from P4 to P7.
• At no point is the player actively braking the handle, or pulling back on the handle, or trying to stop the handle.

As to why the couple goes negative… and bearing in mind that we have to consider where in space the screw axis exists… (because sometimes we talk about the "coupling point" or the "couple point" as the mid point of the hands, but NOT in the first video from the good Dr.): That component of the torque is tending to slow. There is another component (the moment of force) that would be tending to increase. The sum of those stays positive until impact.

 

It’s not super straightforward or easy to get, but also… It is a measurement after the fact. I think people get confused easily when they see a force vector. One of the better examples is again how people were talking about "going normal" for about a year.

 

"Going normal" was just two things:

• Around impact, the golf club is pulling nearly straight away from your hands just like a rock being twirled on a string above your head pulls out to keep the string tight.
• The golfer wasn't pulling the handle inward… he was merely holding onto the grip and not letting it slip. If a force is headed due south, and a golfer is applying and equal and opposite force due north… they cancel each other out and the grip doesn't move in the golfer's hands.

Now, the golfer is actually pulling inward slightly more than with the force required just to not let the grip slip, but that's because the path of the clubhead is not linear, but being bent around the arc. So, they are technically pulling with their body's rotation (left arm tends to be pretty straight near impact and afterward) more than just the force coming from the club… but I hope that is easy to understand.

 

————————————————

 

This thread has been a weird and occasionally wonderful ride, but suffice to say, I think we can agree to these facts, and put this topic to bed:

• #FeelAintReal. Y'all can debate feels all you want, but be prepared to be told it isn't really what's happening. Golf instructors know this; it's not a slam. It's just a statement of truth. Your feels can be important to you, and it's the only way to really "learn" to do things differently… but it rarely represents what you're actually doing.
• The arms DO accelerate (with your muscles in your arms and chest and shoulders) and do not just "fall" or "get carried by the rotation of your body" (both paraphrased; not direct quotes) in good swings almost immediately from P4… or else they'd get so far behind the pivot you'd likely be a lousy golfer.
• The hands do not do any active "braking" of the handle at or near impact. About the only time this might actually occur is when you try to avoid hitting a tree in your early follow-through… or you're Tiger and you stop the downswing shortly after transition, and you literally don't hit the ball. If you can stop a tsunami bar… you can stop a golf club.

 

Edited February 5 by iacas
Clarified P5.5

[Righty to Lefty]

On 2/4/2024 at 5:01 AM, Hidraw said:

@PedronNiall,

Upon your comment, I did watch Dr Mackenzie's videos in details.  Very well made and scientific.
Now I understand what is meant by the net couple and net force <--> moment of force.

I also accept that the for the golf swing in a curved hand path, the tangential force component of the net force decreasing fast but still positive before impact.  So the hands are still being accelerated forward abeit at decreasing rates.

This suits my intuition fine and the club still seeking to line its center of mass to the direction of the pull through the left shoulder - and the tangential acceleration decreases as the leverage is decreases.

Now my concept of braking at the hinge is applicable to the hinge in linear motion apparently not in our golf swing.

Quoting some wise words from @virtuoso just posted, like he know what I am goint to say next.
 

@virtuoso
Hi coach,

I was going to suggest an alternative alias for you as deep cover - the Artist. 

But apparently, what you say here very scientific and relevant.  But can I pin my upper left arm to my chest during release as an intent to slow the left arm swing? 🙂




 

Yeah but did you catch the part about the "negative couple" where he stated that the golfer is working in opposition to the direction the club  head is traveling.  If you are holding the end of the club opposite of he club head, how else could you work in the opposition to it unless you apply a braking force to the handle end.  The hands are working in opposition to each other at that point. For the kinematic sequence to stay in tact the hands have to slow down/ stall in order to transfer energy onward to the club head. By the time the club reaches the low point of the swing arc, the only thing that should be accelerating, is the club head if the intent is to achieve maximum efficiency and energy transfer.  

 

This is literally what happens when done efficiently (Especially at the 3:48 mark): 

 

Edited February 9 by Righty to Lefty

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah but did you catch the part about the "negative couple" where he stated that the golfer is working in opposition to the direction the club  head is traveling.  If you are holding the end of the club opposite of he club head, how else could you work in the opposition to it unless you apply a braking force to the handle end.  The hands are working in opposition to each other at that point. For the kinematic sequence to stay in tact the hands have to slow down/ stall in order to transfer energy onward to the club head. By the time the club reaches the low point of the swing arc, the only thing that should be accelerating, is the club head if the intent is to achieve maximum efficiency and energy transfer.  

 

This is literally what happens when done efficiently (Especially at the 3:48 mark): 

 

1)

His video is about braking force as it occurs naturally in a proper swing via the kinetic chain interacting with the ground. The body's forces push downward at an angle via the legs into the ground, the ground pushes upward at an angle into the body via the legs, then rinse & repeat in the downswing. There's a massive difference between negative acceleration occurring within the system due to pressure shifts/changing vectors and your claim of braking the grip/handle. He says zero, absolutely zero, about stopping the club late in the downswing or braking the club with the hands.

 

2)

On 1/23/2024 at 11:15 PM, Righty to Lefty said:

Being that the golfer's only connection to the club is the handle in, the golfer is applying a braking force to the handle end which transfers the building force and momentum onward to the club head.  This is no different than snapping a towel or cracking a whip where a negative couple is applied to handle end to rapidly accelerate the tip end.

 

Just wanted to quote you from a while back as he specifically mentions that the golf swing is nothing like the action required to work a towel/rope/whip. I'm sure you missed that in the video since you missed that the video itself confirms nothing of what you're trying to claim, so thought I'd help you out a bit. Maybe you'll learn something from a video you like since you've ignored reality as presented by others.

 

3)

Can the mods please lock this dumpster fire of a thread?

[iacas]

7 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Just wanted to quote you from a while back as he specifically mentions that the golf swing is nothing like the action required to work a towel/rope/whip. I'm sure you missed that in the video since you missed that the video itself confirms nothing of what you're trying to claim, so thought I'd help you out a bit. Maybe you'll learn something from a video you like since you've ignored reality as presented by others.

 

The whip thing may have been the funniest moment from a science perspective in this whole discussion.

 

7 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

3) Can the mods please lock this dumpster fire of a thread?

 

Seconded, please. I think we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's not going anywhere.

 

If a certain once-mid-digits-handicapper wants to read more about why his latest post continues to be off-base, he can go back and re-read (or read for the first time) any of about ten or fifteen previous posts.

[Simpsonia]

12 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah but did you catch the part about the "negative couple" where he stated that the golfer is working in opposition to the direction the club  head is traveling.  If you are holding the end of the club opposite of he club head, how else could you work in the opposition to it unless you apply a braking force to the handle end.  The hands are working in opposition to each other at that point. For the kinematic sequence to stay in tact the hands have to slow down/ stall in order to transfer energy onward to the club head. By the time the club reaches the low point of the swing arc, the only thing that should be accelerating, is the club head if the intent is to achieve maximum efficiency and energy transfer.  

 

This is literally what happens when done efficiently (Especially at the 3:48 mark): 

 

 

So I asked you this once before, but you may have missed it. I wanted to use the common analogy of a speedboat and water skier and the golf swing. When a speed boat is pulling a water skier and cuts a really tight corner, that whips the skier out at a very high rate of speed. Did the boat hit the "brakes" in order to do that, or did it just change directions rapidly? Yes, the boat slows in the direction it was previously traveling, but that is a side-effect of changing directions, not an active "braking force" applied by the boat. So to bring it back to the golf swing, as there is the change in direction that happens at release, the hands slow in one direction/dimension, but gain speed in another direction/dimension. Most people don't think of the hands 'braking', so much as just changing directions or turning the corner. Braking, as most people understand it, implies a stopping or slowing of force in ALL directions. 

 

To bring it back to planetary orbits as you seem to have liked, when the Earth orbits the Sun, is it ever "braking" as it continues traveling along its curved orbit path? 

Edited February 9 by Simpsonia

[johnrobison]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

The whip thing may have been the funniest moment from a science perspective in this whole discussion.

 

 

Seconded, please. I think we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's not going anywhere.

 

If a certain once-mid-digits-handicapper wants to read more about why his latest post continues to be off-base, he can go back and re-read (or read for the first time) any of about ten or fifteen previous posts.

It was entertaining for a while - just the shear number of blatantly incorrect and misguided things the OP would chime in with - but now the whole thing is just a bore.

[virtuoso]

47 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

It was entertaining for a while - just the shear number of blatantly incorrect and misguided things the OP would chime in with - but now the whole thing is just a bore.

Having become a bore, lets change directions with my therapy sessions with Dr MPStrat, who happens to be a poster here but also a Psychiatrist. The cynical, money hungry virtuoso has become unstable chasing down the mysteries of the "Brake the Handle" affair:

 

Edited February 9 by virtuoso

[Righty to Lefty]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:58 AM, Simpsonia said:

 

So I asked you this once before, but you may have missed it. I wanted to use the common analogy of a speedboat and water skier and the golf swing. When a speed boat is pulling a water skier and cuts a really tight corner, that whips the skier out at a very high rate of speed. Did the boat hit the "brakes" in order to do that, or did it just change directions rapidly? Yes, the boat slows in the direction it was previously traveling, but that is a side-effect of changing directions, not an active "braking force" applied by the boat. So to bring it back to the golf swing, as there is the change in direction that happens at release, the hands slow in one direction/dimension, but gain speed in another direction/dimension. Most people don't think of the hands 'braking', so much as just changing directions or turning the corner. Braking, as most people understand it, implies a stopping or slowing of force in ALL directions. 

 

To bring it back to planetary orbits as you seem to have liked, when the Earth orbits the Sun, is it ever "braking" as it continues traveling along its curved orbit path? 

The hands do not accelerate through impact... they decelerate.

 

On 2/9/2024 at 10:09 AM, johnrobison said:

It was entertaining for a while - just the shear number of blatantly incorrect and misguided things the OP would chime in with - but now the whole thing is just a bore.

You keep thinking that you are making fun of me but you are wrong I assure you.

Edited February 11 by Righty to Lefty

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The hands do not accelerate through impact... they decelerate.

 

https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/straw-man-fallacy/

 

Nobody has said that the hands accelerate through impact, and many (including me) have pointed out that they reach peak speed around P5.5.

 

What you demonstrated isn't "slight deceleration" — it’s full-on stopping the handle (and the clubhead). Also, what you post ignores that "releasing" the club acts on the hands, too.

 

So… just a few days ago, you post a video about "firing" the hands down to start the downswing (negating half of your subject), and now you're trying to shift away from actively "braking" the handle to claim that you've been saying the hands slightly decelerate (not all on their own, either) the whole time? I dare say we see through that.

 

Edited February 11 by iacas
Clarified

[Righty to Lefty]

On 2/8/2024 at 10:36 PM, PedronNiall said:

1)

His video is about braking force as it occurs naturally in a proper swing via the kinetic chain interacting with the ground. The body's forces push downward at an angle via the legs into the ground, the ground pushes upward at an angle into the body via the legs, then rinse & repeat in the downswing. There's a massive difference between negative acceleration occurring within the system due to pressure shifts/changing vectors and your claim of braking the grip/handle. He says zero, absolutely zero, about stopping the club late in the downswing or braking the club with the hands.

 

2)

 

Just wanted to quote you from a while back as he specifically mentions that the golf swing is nothing like the action required to work a towel/rope/whip. I'm sure you missed that in the video since you missed that the video itself confirms nothing of what you're trying to claim, so thought I'd help you out a bit. Maybe you'll learn something from a video you like since you've ignored reality as presented by others.

 

3)

Can the mods please lock this dumpster fire of a thread?

So when he literally demonstrated and described the butt end of the club hitting a wall and how that catapults the club head forward and rapidly accelerates it at 3:48 in the video?

 

  For the club head to speed up the hands have to decelerate. It literally has to happen...it is a braking force applied to the handle end of the club. By the way it is flat out silly to believe that the braking force that is brought up from the ground never makes it to the hands. Not only does it make it to the hands...it eventually makes it to the club head and slows it down. Would you also like me to post the video where Dr Mackenzie speaks about how the hands work in opposition to each other? Well if one hand is trying to accelerate the club....logically the other hands is trying to decelerate the club and the net effect is a stable club head.

 

Why call for the mods to lock the thread cause you dont agree, why not just move on if the info isn't for you. Calling for the mods is a weak move as this is a thread that I created and it is on topic even if you disagree. 

Edited February 11 by Righty to Lefty