Help with really low spin -- this time with video and launch monitor results

[hlca]

I previously made a post about getting very low spin with driver.  I went to an indoor range today, and it turns out that my spin is really low for all my clubs!  I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.  Here are the LM results for various clubs.  Note these were borrowed clubs -- I think the irons were TM M4 with jacked up lofts.  The ball was also a little worn.

 

7 iron -- 2.6k rpm spin 

 

9 iron -- 4.8k rpm spin

 

driver -- 693 rpm spin

 

driver -- 896 rpm spin

 

Here's a video of me hitting a 7 iron from a few weeks back

 

 

Here's a link to same video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/DU11N7CW4QkVc23S8

 

Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

Edited January 19 by hlca

[MonteScheinblum]

.Club very shut without any vertical hinge, too much squat, too far from the inside.  Face on will tell more

[MPStrat]

Foresight is notoriously bad at reading spin, its even worse if you don’t use the stickers. I wouldn’t put much stock in those spin numbers. The m4 shovels you were hitting would reduce spin too.

 

Like said above. Clubface is way too strong and too much added knee flex in the downswing. 
 

This is a golf swing that will hit a few really good shots per round but way too many wild misses. Clubface is the biggest issue in your swing. 

[GolfTurkey]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Foresight is notoriously bad at reading spin, its even worse if you don’t use the stickers. I wouldn’t put much stock in those spin numbers. The m4 shovels you were hitting would reduce spin too.

 

Are you thinking of Flightscope, Foresight is the most accurate LM at reading spin indoors?

 

Foresight stickers are only required for club data, radar requires metallic stickers or RCT balls for more accurate spin indoors.

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Are you thinking of Flightscope, Foresight is the most accurate LM at reading spin indoors?

 

Foresight stickers are only required for club data, radar requires metallic stickers or RCT balls for more accurate spin indoors.

There are four locations within a few miles of where I live that have simulators. One has GC Quad, one has GC Hawk, one has Full Swing, one has Trackman. They all have their own shortcomings. Full swing is the worst by a mile. It is almost unusable for driver. Irons not as bad. Foresight indoors, both quad and hawk, says my driver spin is 1500-1900. It exaggerates my carry distance by 20 yards and total distance even more. I hit 350+ drives on Foresight regularly and twice a year in real life. Outdoors on trackman, my spin on a center strike is 2000-2300. Trackman indoors tends to have frequent strange misreads but I find that although less consistent, when it reads, it’s most accurate overall. 

[GolfTurkey]

31 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Foresight indoors, both quad and hawk, says my driver spin is 1500-1900. It exaggerates my carry distance by 20 yards and total distance even more.

 

Foresight's low spin distance boost "bug" is well known (more likely a feature to help sell new drivers ... "ooh that goes 20 yards longer than mine!!), it's ball data measurement accuracy is seldom questioned (it does have occasional misreads / no reads like anything).

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Foresight's low spin distance boost "bug" is well known (more likely a feature to help sell new drivers ... "ooh that goes 20 yards longer than mine!!)

Thats what I’ve experienced. It’s consistent too. It’s not intermittent. 

[GolfTurkey]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

Thats what I’ve experienced. It’s consistent too. It’s not intermittent. 

Yes it is consistent, the measured ball data is consistently accurate and the ball flight / distance calculation for like sub-2500 spin rates is consistently (IMO deliberately) boosted.

[bcjim]

Club speed was missing in all pics. Suggests LM was having some difficulty?  I'm no instructor but that squat is something.  What is your miss? Or more specifically,  what is your swing feel that avoids chunking? I need some of that,  lol.

[naval2006]

In classic WRX fashion, you should start by changing driver.

[virtuoso]

We can just unplug all the launch monitors. They are not needed. Good old 2d video is clearly telling us that those swing mechanics are going to produce a topspin forehand. 
 

The sequencing and timing of the mechanics are posing almost as big a problem as the geometry.

[virtuoso]

That looks like The Crossings driving range in Carlsbad......

[hlca]

3 hours ago, bcjim said:

Club speed was missing in all pics. Suggests LM was having some difficulty?  I'm no instructor but that squat is something.  What is your miss? Or more specifically,  what is your swing feel that avoids chunking? I need some of that,  lol.

 

I have trouble with the clubface.  On one day, I'll push a lot of shots.  On another, I'll hook.  

 

To avoid chunking, I try to keep a little weight forward and make sure I don't have any sway...

 

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

We can just unplug all the launch monitors. They are not needed. Good old 2d video is clearly telling us that those swing mechanics are going to produce a topspin forehand. 
 

The sequencing and timing of the mechanics are posing almost as big a problem as the geometry.

 

Maybe clearly telling you that!  I guess I need a lesson.

 

5 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

That looks like The Crossings driving range in Carlsbad......

 

Yuppers!   

[virtuoso]

2 minutes ago, hlca said:

 

I have trouble with the clubface.  On one day, I'll push a lot of shots.  On another, I'll hook.  

 

To avoid chunking, I try to keep a little weight forward and make sure I don't have any sway...

 

 

Maybe clearly telling you that!  I guess I need a lesson.

 

 

Yuppers!   

yeah, that was for the instructors in the room. I don't expect you to know that....otherwise you wouldn't be playing russian roulette by asking all of us wrx clowns. Any teacher that knows what they're doing at all can get you straightened out.

[ZachAllenGolf]

Try buying a Swing Gyde. Will help you hinge the club up correctly.  You have a very interesting Swing, but the combination of the closed club face, large squat, and being really underneath it gives you the ultimate low spin ball.  Quite the opposite of what most struggle with. 

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, ZachAllenGolf said:

Try buying a Swing Gyde. Will help you hinge the club up correctly.  You have a very interesting Swing, but the combination of the closed club face, large squat, and being really underneath it gives you the ultimate low spin ball.  Quite the opposite of what most struggle with. 

He should just come see you. Aren't you a SoCal guy? Or he could grab Monte in the OC. Whichever of you is available soonest for an emergency procedure...STAT!

[hlca]

4 hours ago, virtuoso said:

He should just come see you. Aren't you a SoCal guy? Or he could grab Monte in the OC. Whichever of you is available soonest for an emergency procedure...STAT!

 

4 hours ago, ZachAllenGolf said:

Try buying a Swing Gyde. Will help you hinge the club up correctly.  You have a very interesting Swing, but the combination of the closed club face, large squat, and being really underneath it gives you the ultimate low spin ball.  Quite the opposite of what most struggle with. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion Zach!  Valencia is a bit of a hike.  I go to Bruce Nakamura at Aviara for tuneups.  Not cheap, but it's close and they have all the technology.

 

I did go to the range earlier today.  With less of a closed clubface, I found I have to be more deliberate in my release.  Otherwise it goes way right.  I guess that is to be expected!  Doing a full hinge also felt a bit weird, but when I hit a good shot, it felt natural.  

[doctor220]

On 1/16/2024 at 6:38 PM, MPStrat said:

Foresight is notoriously bad at reading spin, its even worse if you don’t use the stickers. I wouldn’t put much stock in those spin numbers. The m4 shovels you were hitting would reduce spin too.

 

Like said above. Clubface is way too strong and too much added knee flex in the downswing. 
 

This is a golf swing that will hit a few really good shots per round but way too many wild misses. Clubface is the biggest issue in your swing. 

No that is not true.

 

Foresight launch monitors are extremely accurate and read the spin numbers correctly. Their algorithm is poor, which is why low spin spots have exaggerated distances. 

 

Two separate issues. 

[MPStrat]

9 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

No that is not true.

 

Foresight launch monitors are extremely accurate and read the spin numbers correctly. Their algorithm is poor, which is why low spin spots have exaggerated distances. 

 

Two separate issues. 

Got it. Algorithm. Thanks for correcting me.

[Valtiel]

Agreed with the posts above, however some important things that haven't been said yet @hlca

1) You aren't reading spin correctly. That 7-iron had 3,752 total spin, Foresight just divides that in such a way to express the extent of the axis tilt you're imparting on the ball, in this case by delivering a shut clubface. Anything in the 3-4k range is still very low for a 7-iron, but that is because your delivery is shut, which delofts the club excessively in this case. 

2) Same deal with the 9-iron with the same caveats as above. 

3) These driver spin numbers are just as likely the product of a bad strike. Launch angle and ball speed are both indicative of you hitting it all over the face, and you can get excessively low spin if any of those strikes are very high. The ball speed relationship with the 7i supports this as well as it should be anywhere from 30-60mph faster off the driver (the higher your swing speed the wider the gap) and you're barely getting into double digits; 11 and 16mph respectively. LPGA average is +35, PGA average is +47. Anything sub 20mph is going to be due to poor strikes, and anything in the 10's means you're either extremely inefficient in your driver swing (low clubhead speed) or you're making extremely poor contact, or a bit of both. 

Overall this means that the swing issues initially described are causing a delivery that is then causing low spin, and this is getting exacerbated as the clubs get longer and your strikes gets worse. Trying to change spin right now is chasing a symptom and you need proper instruction to neutralize the swing issues causing it. 

[hlca]

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

3) These driver spin numbers are just as likely the product of a bad strike. Launch angle and ball speed are both indicative of you hitting it all over the face, and you can get excessively low spin if any of those strikes are very high. The ball speed relationship with the 7i supports this as well as it should be anywhere from 30-60mph faster off the driver (the higher your swing speed the wider the gap) and you're barely getting into double digits; 11 and 16mph respectively. LPGA average is +35, PGA average is +47. Anything sub 20mph is going to be due to poor strikes, and anything in the 10's means you're either extremely inefficient in your driver swing (low clubhead speed) or you're making extremely poor contact, or a bit of both. 

 

Fair comment.  My driver swing speed is typically around 95 mph, which would translate to 142.5 max.  Would love to get it up to 100/150 with 2000 rpm spin.  Guess I have a lot of work ahead to get there.

[BombinJim]

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The ball speed relationship with the 7i supports this as well as it should be anywhere from 30-60mph faster off the driver (the higher your swing speed the wider the gap) and you're barely getting into double digits; 11 and 16mph respectively. LPGA average is +35, PGA average is +47.

Very cool insight here. For me personally I know I’m leaving plenty on the table with driver…