Understanding ASI vs. No Turn cast swings

[smdykas]

I have different results trying either method. 

 

For ASI, I hit the ball high and straight. My miss is a pull or push. 

 

For NTC, I hit the ball further, the miss is hook or slice. 

 

Here is the question. Are these two different golf swings? 

 

It seems like these are two completely different ways to hit a golf ball. 

 

Are these methods trying to accomplish the same golf swing, or are they two totally different swing styles? 

 

I don't see how they could be the same swing. 

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, smdykas said:

I have different results trying either method. 

 

For ASI, I hit the ball high and straight. My miss is a pull or push. 

 

For NTC, I hit the ball further, the miss is hook or slice. 

 

Here is the question. Are these two different golf swings? 

 

It seems like these are two completely different ways to hit a golf ball. 

 

Are these methods trying to accomplish the same golf swing, or are they two totally different swing styles? 

 

I don't see how they could be the same swing. 

A good swing will have both.

[smdykas]

24 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

A good swing will have both.

Ok. That is interesting. I'm not sure how that works. ASI is about pivot and hinging up. 

 

Seems like NTC is the opposite. Especially when looking at wrist movement. 

 

I'll rewatch your series. I must misunderstand something. 

 

Thank you for the comment. It's been a long time since the Chicago clinic and I lost that swing. 

 

[KD1]

ASI = arm swing illusion?

 

Check this video out for a blending of the two:

7:40 to 8:40 they effectively isolate arm swing illusion
15:07 demonstrates cast a

15:40 blends them together

 

Another perspective/drill here.

[betarhoalphadelta]

My takeaway from the ASI was that it wasn't necessarily a "swing method", but that it was illustrating that MANY people have a very flawed concept of how the arms work in the golf swing. The "illusion" is that the arms primarily move across the chest to the trail side in the backswing and across the chest to the lead side in the downswing. Whereas the reality is it's primarily an up-down move with SOME movement across, and that most ams don't understand it and therefore overdo it. 

 

ASI says the arms move up and slightly to the right on the backswing, and when done right, you'll have 90* or less right elbow bend (reference point; 0* is a straight arm).

 

Which is consistent with Monte, with AMG, etc. When you see most ams collapse their arm structure on the backswing (pinning their lead arm across their chest with their trail elbow bent WAY beyond 90*), often because that's what 2D stills of tour players "look like" they're doing, they get all sorts of messed up. This AMG video highlights it well. The ASI is designed to basically ams "STOP IT!" and maintain width. 

 

Then the ASI says that on the downswing the arms primarily move downwards and possibly only a LITTLE bit back across the chest. Which is consistent with what Monte says about lowering the arms (Justin Rose drill), consistent with what Monte and AMG both say about extending the right arm (first AMG video @KD1 posted). And also with an AMG video where they highlight that impact is trail side (which would be consistent with ASI which says the arm movement isn't primarily across the chest to the lead side in the downswing if it's still trail side at impact). 

 

IMHO they all might explain some of these concepts very differently, and all might have different "focal" points based on their time instructing actual students. I.e. I think @Jim Waldron largely doesn't like to talk about "independent" arm movement and tries to explain it as being blended with the pivot whereas I think both Monte and AMG might be inclined to say that if your arms aren't moving the way they should you need to make it an active movement. But that's not a difference in the "reals", it's more a difference in the "feels" you prefer to teach it, IMHO. I think Jim, Monte, AMG are largely in agreement about how the arms should actually work in the swing... At least that's what it appears to be from an outsider.

 

[iacas]

48 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

My takeaway from the ASI was that it wasn't necessarily a "swing method", but that it was illustrating that MANY people have a very flawed concept of how the arms work in the golf swing. The "illusion" is that the arms primarily move across the chest to the trail side in the backswing and across the chest to the lead side in the downswing. Whereas the reality is it's primarily an up-down move with SOME movement across, and that most ams don't understand it and therefore overdo it. 

 

Yes, this. ASI is not a "method." It's just a warning of sorts that your arms don't go "around" your body very much.

[smdykas]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Yes, this. ASI is not a "method." It's just a warning of sorts that your arms don't go "around" your body very much.

Can you give more detail on this? are you saying that the hinge (radial deviation) of the wrist ASI promotes is not correct? The hands need to stay in front of chest, but you should still put trail wrist in extension? 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, smdykas said:

Can you give more detail on this? are you saying that the hinge (radial deviation) of the wrist ASI promotes is not correct? The hands need to stay in front of chest, but you should still put trail wrist in extension? 

 

 

Right and getting radial and at the end trail extension is what keeps the arms from sucking inside…..in NTC you’re doing those things to encourage the body to rotate the arms back…it’s the same thing.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, smdykas said:

Can you give more detail on this? are you saying that the hinge (radial deviation) of the wrist ASI promotes is not correct? The hands need to stay in front of chest, but you should still put trail wrist in extension? 

i’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. The arm swing illusion is mostly just describing an illusion, 3D getting mucked up by 2D, it’s not a method for swinging a golf club.

 

AFAIK it doesn’t say much about the wrists. They hinge and the trail wrist extends a bit in the backswing but we know that from other things.

 

As I was typing that up, Monte responded.

[smdykas]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Right and getting radial and at the end trail extension is what keeps the arms from sucking inside…..in NTC you’re doing those things to encourage the body to rotate the arms back…it’s the same thing.

ok...that makes sense. thank you.

 

So, on the downswing, the correct "cast" would be "firing down" lead hand into ulnar deviation while maintaining trail wrist extension?

 

Incorrect cast would be firing trail wrist into flexion? 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, smdykas said:

ok...that makes sense. thank you.

 

So, on the downswing, the correct "cast" would be "firing down" lead hand into ulnar deviation while maintaining trail wrist extension?

 

Incorrect cast would be firing trail wrist into flexion? 

Yes

[smdykas]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes

ok. Now I see what you are saying. Thank you. that makes so much sense! 

[smdykas]

update. Been focusing on this now. Ball flight is back down, distances are up. Hitting draws, miss is a heavy draw. 

 

I think I am on the right path.

 

Thanks for your help. 

[golfing_penguin]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:29 AM, smdykas said:

ok...that makes sense. thank you.

 

So, on the downswing, the correct "cast" would be "firing down" lead hand into ulnar deviation while maintaining trail wrist extension?

 

Incorrect cast would be firing trail wrist into flexion? 

 

On 3/19/2024 at 6:31 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes

 

When I talk about this in my lessons I get a lot of blank stares followed by "isn't that a cast", and a lot of light-bulbs go off when I point out that the right wrist going in to flexion gets the scoopy look at impact.

 

Big shout-out to Monte and all the big-league teachers for helping us littler league guys

[ThePaineTrain]

On 3/21/2024 at 9:33 AM, smdykas said:

update. Been focusing on this now. Ball flight is back down, distances are up. Hitting draws, miss is a heavy draw. 

 

I think I am on the right path.

 

Thanks for your help. 

 

I was struggling with hooks a lot after initial success with NTC. Highlighted a few backswing issues I had to clean up, namely a sway tendency putting my weight on the outside of my trail foot instead of keeping it between my feet and a tendency on longer clubs to flatten my shoulders in the turn instead of keeping the shoulders perpendicular to my spine. My main issue was conflating "getting wide/shallowing" with taking a flat, around the body backswing and losing my spine tilt and letting the clubhead pull my weight to the right instead of keeping it centered. Might be worth looking into in your case, might be way off base.

[mallrat]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:06 AM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Which is consistent with what Monte says about lowering the arms (Justin Rose drill), consistent with what Monte and AMG both say about extending the right arm (first AMG video @KD1 posted). 

 

Can you expand upon the right arm straightening or extending and what he says? I ask because lately I have been focusing on extending the right arm as quickly as possible and have great results. I have noticed that doing it in 2 different directions has produced very well struck balls but drastically different ball flights. Feeling like I extend it down or towards the ball produces a very low almost stinger like shot where as extending it towards the trail side produces a higher shot. 
 

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but while talking about arms can I ask about shoulder structure? I have always felt like my shoulders pinch in which kind of rounds (makes me look hump backed) but lately I have experimented with feeling like my shoulders are on the sides of my body vs in front of my torso seems to produce a good result. Is this a thing?

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, mallrat said:

Can you expand upon the right arm straightening or extending and what he says? I ask because lately I have been focusing on extending the right arm as quickly as possible and have great results. I have noticed that doing it in 2 different directions has produced very well struck balls but drastically different ball flights. Feeling like I extend it down or towards the ball produces a very low almost stinger like shot where as extending it towards the trail side produces a higher shot. 
 

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but while talking about arms can I ask about shoulder structure? I have always felt like my shoulders pinch in which kind of rounds (makes me look hump backed) but lately I have experimented with feeling like my shoulders are on the sides of my body vs in front of my torso seems to produce a good result. Is this a thing?

 

Unfortunately, that's beyond my pay grade... I don't have enough understanding to go that deep. Hopefully someone else can be more help. 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, mallrat said:

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but while talking about arms can I ask about shoulder structure? I have always felt like my shoulders pinch in which kind of rounds (makes me look hump backed) but lately I have experimented with feeling like my shoulders are on the sides of my body vs in front of my torso seems to produce a good result. Is this a thing?

I believe that in front is correct.