Who is right?

[Frankensteins Monster]

Played in a tournament a few days ago. In an area on the course has historically been played as a penalty area, a player hit into that penalty area and was going to play using the two club rule. He was asked by the official on his way to his ball, "Why didn't you hit a provisional?" The player replied, "It's a penalty area."  The official said, "No, it's out." The player pointed to the red marks on the cart path indicating that it is a penalty area and said, "The OB area is on the other side of the hole. There are no white marks here." The player proceeded to show him the player's memo sheet stating that that is where the OB is, not where his ball went into the penalty area. Player hit his shot after taking a drop. After shot official said he paged the head official and said it's not a penalty area. The head official came out and told the player that it is a nothing area, meaning, the red marks are irrelevant and he should have played it as a lost ball. Player showed him the sheet and said there was no mention of it not being a penalty area, or to ignore "old marks," and he was following how the course was marked and how it historically plays. Official said they're old marks and the player replied with, "Yes, because that's how it is always played." The result was player would be DQ'd if he didn't go back and correct his mistake, and obviously would have to leave the course. Player went back to tee and took stroke and distance penalty as well as playing wrong ball penalty.

[iacas]

I'd have insisted on playing two balls if I were him, and intending to score with the original ball (dropped).

 

Assuming I've read what you've written correctly, without instructions to ignore a red line… I'd think it's a penalty area.

[rogolf]

It does sound like there was something lacking in the course marking and notice to players.  However, the referees made a decision.

As a referee, I was taught to never paint on anything permanent, eg, no paint marks on cart paths.

Edited May 24 by rogolf

[Augster]

The refs were correct. If they set up the course without a traditional RPA just being a lost ball, so be it. 
 

They SHOULD have put it on the hard card. 
 

As I’ve said many times, each individual committee can set up the course any way they would like. They can make OB into RPAs. They can make RPAs into GA. And they can do all this without physically going out and changing anything. Just mention it on the hard card as conditions of competition. 
 

It sounds like the course put a permanent red line by that area to make it an RPA to speed up play. For a 1-day tourney, the committee probably didn’t have the authority to go out and actually paint over that line. They really should have mentioned it on the hard card as it sound like their solution was to post a ref in that area knowing players would play it “incorrectly”. 

[Mr. Bean]

IMO a clear cut Committee error. If I had been the Committee I would have omitted the wrong ball penalty as that was a result of the error. S&D and move on.

 

Then quickly a sign on the tee informing that the red marked area is part of general area. Without any markings as OB or defining it in Local Rules it cannot be OB.

Edited May 24 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

The refs were correct.  

 

Which part did they get right?

 

The area was marked with red dots and not with white stakes or line. Nothing was written down in competition Local Rules or other documents (as OP told us). How on earth the player should have known that for this particular competition the red PA had been taken away? So how can you say that the referees were correct?

 

I wonder how many other players had played that area as red PA. You cannot change a marking during the day.

 

Edited May 24 by Mr. Bean

[Augster]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Which part did they get right?

 

The area was marked with red dots and not with white stakes or line. Nothing was written down in competition Local Rules or other documents (as OP told us). How on earth the player should have known that for this particular competition the red PA had been taken away? So how can you say that the referees were correct?

 

I wonder how many other players had played that area as red PA. You cannot change a marking during the day.

 

From my understanding, the red line on the cart path is permanent. It is there for pace of play purposes put there by the course committee. 
 

THIS committee, state tourney committee I’m guessing, did not want that area played as RPA. But they don’t have the authority to paint over that line. I’m sure they pulled the red stakes in the area before the competition. And they posted a ref at that spot to help players find their balls and make sure all players know they are playing it as GA. 
 

AND, I’m just guessing, I’d bet they DID post that area was GA and the player didn’t read all literature. Let’s not forget players are lazy when it comes to Rules and CoC. I’ve learned that from watching golf at it’s highest level. 
 

In other words, we really only have half the story. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

the player didn’t read all literature. Let’s not forget players are lazy when it comes to Rules and CoC

 

It's often referred to as DNR . . . for Did Not Read. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

AND, I’m just guessing,

 

Indeed you are.

[Frankensteins Monster]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

From my understanding, the red line on the cart path is permanent. It is there for pace of play purposes put there by the course committee. 
 

THIS committee, state tourney committee I’m guessing, did not want that area played as RPA. But they don’t have the authority to paint over that line. I’m sure they pulled the red stakes in the area before the competition. And they posted a ref at that spot to help players find their balls and make sure all players know they are playing it as GA. 
 

AND, I’m just guessing, I’d bet they DID post that area was GA and the player didn’t read all literature. Let’s not forget players are lazy when it comes to Rules and CoC. I’ve learned that from watching golf at it’s highest level. 
 

In other words, we really only have half the story. 

You have the exact story. This committee admitted they did not tell players nor put it on any “literature.”

[Frankensteins Monster]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

It's often referred to as DNR . . . for Did Not Read. 😉

See post above. 

[iacas]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:36 AM, Augster said:

AND, I’m just guessing, I’d bet they DID post that area was GA and the player didn’t read all literature. Let’s not forget players are lazy when it comes to Rules and CoC. I’ve learned that from watching golf at it’s highest level. 

 

Care to retract your statement about the refs being right here given that your guesses appear to have been incorrect?

[Mr. Bean]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:19 AM, Frankensteins Monster said:

The player proceeded to show him the player's memo sheet stating that that is where the OB is, not where his ball went into the penalty area. Player hit his shot after taking a drop. After shot official said he paged the head official and said it's not a penalty area. 

 

Having read this with a thought it is very clear to me that the referee made a huge blunder. If the ref knew that the area in question was not a PA or even suspected it then they should have told the player not to play from the point the player dropped a ball. Huge mistake. Huge.

[Augster]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:24 PM, iacas said:

 

Care to retract your statement about the refs being right here given that your guesses appear to have been incorrect?

?

There’s two sides to every story. On Internet forums, we almost always get only one side. 
 

Bring the ref, and the ref he brought in, into this discussion and then maybe we’ll get to the truth of the matter. It’s not going to happen and you know this. 

[nsxguy]

On 5/23/2024 at 8:19 PM, Frankensteins Monster said:

Played in a tournament a few days ago. In an area on the course has historically been played as a penalty area, a player hit into that penalty area and was going to play using the two club rule. He was asked by the official on his way to his ball, "Why didn't you hit a provisional?" The player replied, "It's a penalty area."  The official said, "No, it's out." The player pointed to the red marks on the cart path indicating that it is a penalty area and said, "The OB area is on the other side of the hole. There are no white marks here." The player proceeded to show him the player's memo sheet stating that that is where the OB is, not where his ball went into the penalty area. Player hit his shot after taking a drop. After shot official said he paged the head official and said it's not a penalty area. The head official came out and told the player that it is a nothing area, meaning, the red marks are irrelevant and he should have played it as a lost ball. Player showed him the sheet and said there was no mention of it not being a penalty area, or to ignore "old marks," and he was following how the course was marked and how it historically plays. Official said they're old marks and the player replied with, "Yes, because that's how it is always played." The result was player would be DQ'd if he didn't go back and correct his mistake, and obviously would have to leave the course. Player went back to tee and took stroke and distance penalty as well as playing wrong ball penalty.

 

Just curious but if I'm reading this correctly, the player took a PA drop and played on AFTER the official told him it's NOT a PA.

 

How is that possible ? I thought the official's ruling STANDS, right or wrong.

 

Also, THEN the head official comes along and concurs with the 1st official and BOTH officials completely ignore the sheet handed out to the players? 

 

Seriously ? How can this scenario even happen ??? 

[nsxguy]

On 5/23/2024 at 9:57 PM, Augster said:

The refs were correct. If they set up the course without a traditional RPA just being a lost ball, so be it. 
 

They SHOULD have put it on the hard card. 
 

As I’ve said many times, each individual committee can set up the course any way they would like. They can make OB into RPAs. They can make RPAs into GA. And they can do all this without physically going out and changing anything. Just mention it on the hard card as conditions of competition.

 

Your post is a bit unclear. They "should" have put it on the hard card ?

 

It appears the officials, or the committee, FAILED to put it on the hard card. So what's a player supposed to do ? If there's nothing on the hard card about the area it HAS to be played as marked; not so ? So how was the ref "correct" ? 

 

What I don't understand about the OP Is how'd that 1st official get there (to be walking along with the player) ? Was there an official assigned to every group ?

 

If not, and that official hadn't been there the player would've taken his RPA drop, played on, and nobody would've even asked about it after the round.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Just curious but if I'm reading this correctly, the player took a PA drop and played on AFTER the official told him it's NOT a PA.

 

How is that possible ? I thought the official's ruling STANDS, right or wrong.

 

Also, THEN the head official comes along and concurs with the 1st official and BOTH officials completely ignore the sheet handed out to the players? 

 

Seriously ? How can this scenario even happen ??? 

 

An excellent question. Huge blunders by Committee, ref and chief ref..?

[Mr. Bean]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:19 AM, Frankensteins Monster said:

Player went back to tee and took stroke and distance penalty as well as playing wrong ball penalty.

 

I suppose you mean wrong place penalty. You cannot create a wrong ball situation with these tools. Unless the player dropped a ball out of bounds and played from there.

 

Edited May 28 by Mr. Bean

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Augster said:

Bring the ref, and the ref he brought in, into this discussion and then maybe we’ll get to the truth of the matter. It’s not going to happen and you know this. 

 

I don't need the original referee to come on here. I only wish you'd actually read what's written.

 

You made a guess and you were, from all available evidence, wrong. Unless you're calling the OP a liar?