Take away/backswing is holding me back - but can you change this significantly during the season?

[JamesFisher1990]

Video'd my swing today and then compared it against Max Homa and it's so obvious how poor my take away and backswing are, which is leading to a less than ideal position at the top, followed by steepening of the shaft. I really like Max's swing but I thought maybe he could be an outlier, so I checked Brooks... Even more vertical at this position. Looked at a few other favorites like Justin Rose and same theme, butt of the club pointed inside the ball at arm parallel.

 

The location where my club head should be around arm parallel in the backswing is probably 2ft different than where it actually is right now - that is such an extreme change, is it even possible to do during the season, even if I drilled it every single day? Should I just play with what I have now, then worry about it over the winter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Me in red, Max/most good players in blue

Edited July 13 by JamesFisher1990

[GoGoErky]

It will probably take more than just the offseason to fix. You can start working on it now and it will slowly make its way into your swing. Remember to play golf not golf swing on the course.

 

The key thing is to make sure you are drilling the right things 

[MonteScheinblum]

Not poor.  I see poor everyday.  Not quite right is a better description.  
 

Face on likely gives some insight 

Edited July 13 by MonteScheinblum

[JamesFisher1990]

10 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Not poor.  I see poor everyday.  Not quite right is a better description.  
 

Face on likely gives some insight 

I already started to practice this more vertical shaft by p3 feel, not sure I want to go back to the "old" feel, which generally was "get as wide as possible, and avoid bending rear elbow" because I struggle(d) with arm collapse.

 

I will try and grab a face on and post.

 

Do you think I over rotate?

[DLiver]

I do the same thing and have worked on it for a long time. Earlier this year, I stopped working on this and focused entirely on what was happening at impact. This caused my index to drop 50% (from 3+ to around 1.5).

 

I think my position at the top of the BS, and my transition on the way down, are pretty good. So now I kinda don't care how I get the club to the top as long as my position and process from there are good.

 

I thought I'd share my experience. YMMV 😊

[tthomasgolfer605]

Get your trail elbow folding earlier and let it fold and rotate to the top. That device will stop your elbow from bending past 90 degrees, but it's how you get there matters. Trying to set the club more upright will cause more problems. Folding your trail arm earlier will set the club on a better plane.

 

 

[JamesFisher1990]

22 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Get your trail elbow folding earlier and let it fold and rotate to the top. That device will stop your elbow from bending past 90 degrees, but it's how you get there matters. Trying to set the club more upright will cause more problems. Folding your trail arm earlier will set the club on a better plane.

 

 

Yes I understand but for most players I look at... the club is more vertical at an earlier point. Not saying I want to or need to copy a certain swing, because everybody moves differently.

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

Yes I understand but for most players I look at... the club is more vertical at an earlier point. Not saying I want to or need to copy a certain swing, because everybody moves differently.

You have two choices. You have to find a way to shallow it on the downswing or externally rotate the trail arm like Max does on the backswing. 

[JamesFisher1990]

24 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

You have two choices. You have to find a way to shallow it on the downswing or externally rotate the trail arm like Max does on the backswing. 

Would pick latter, seems much more simple to execute and control.

[glk]

Can hit balls with it but go slow.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhe5iCyFZko/

 

or the trail side version

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-kuVOOl1B6/

 

or

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

Edited July 14 by glk

[Chunkitgood]

Try this:

 

In the takeaway, start separating your hands from your body by lifting the club up with your arms with extension of your left arm (straight in front of your chest) rather than using (vertical) abduction (lifting to your side) later in your swing,

 

Or do it like Max Homa:

 

 

 

[byoung14]

A low hanging fruit is the grip, making sure the grip is correct can help influence the takeaway/wrist angles. Look at the difference between your trail wrist compared to Max’s trail wrist at the top of the backswing.

[93tilInfinity]

What works for me for backswing changes is an iPad outside the ball mirroring a DTL video from my iPhone via an app called Mirror Vision. Allows me to see my backswing in real-time as opposed to using an actual mirror (where I have to look back at it) or just a DTL video (where I have to check my form after the fact).

Edited July 15 by 93tilInfinity

[JamesFisher1990]

8 hours ago, 93tilInfinity said:

What works for me for backswing changes is an iPad outside the ball mirroring a DTL video from my iPhone via an app called Mirror Vision. Allows me to see my backswing in real-time as opposed to using an actual mirror (where I have to look back at it) or just a DTL video (where I have to check my form after the fact).

yeah I just ordered an ipod touch so I'll be able to do this at the range and at home, definitely going to save time and improve learning since I don't need to rewatch after.

[JamesFisher1990]

Been doing some 50% (p3 then take a controlled hit) swings and I'm noticing my miss is always fat. Is this normal when trying to make this kind of change? I might be able to post some video later tonight.

[DLiver]

57 minutes ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

Been doing some 50% (p3 then take a controlled hit) swings and I'm noticing my miss is always fat. Is this normal when trying to make this kind of change? I might be able to post some video later tonight.

FWIW, when I work on this change, I tend to focus on swinging my arms rather than making a turn (if that makes sense). Sometimes this leads me to swaying back during my takeaway, which can lead to fat shots if I don't sway forward enough on the DS.

[JamesFisher1990]

2 hours ago, DLiver said:

FWIW, when I work on this change, I tend to focus on swinging my arms rather than making a turn (if that makes sense). Sometimes this leads me to swaying back during my takeaway, which can lead to fat shots if I don't sway forward enough on the DS.

Yeah when I tried to focus on getting my hip bump into my lead side then the issue goes away. Wasn't recording anything though, so who knows if I had the proper take away.

 

Humidity is killer here right now and my garage has no temp control. Once I get a fan going in there, I will post something. Worst case if weather is nice Friday, I might hit the range.

[KMeloney]

Surprised no one has focused on the lack of wrist set in your first still shot. It looks to me like Max sets his wrists early, then turns that structure to the top. You look like you're trying to "get extension" in your backswing by reaching back away from the target with totally unhinged wrists, try to turn THAT structure to the top, realize that the club is nowhere near the top nor "loaded," and set your wrists (a little) late and across the line.

 

An easy way to get that vertical wrist hinge early (that will likely feel really different and off-plane at first) is to leverage the club up with the heel-pad of your lead hand. Once you get the vertical hinge going, you can turn your shoulders and set the club at the top from there. 

 

Check out the "Faldo drill." Notice that the drill starts with hinged wrists right from the get-go. And then you move that L-shaped structure to the top.

[Primo1868]

On 7/14/2024 at 12:08 PM, glk said:

Can hit balls with it but go slow.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhe5iCyFZko/

 

or the trail side version

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-kuVOOl1B6/

 

or

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

saving this one for later!

[JamesFisher1990]

I'm practicing every day - here's the DTL and FA as requested. I realize after watching the DTL that even though it feels different... it's really not. The FA view I just did a slow swing to P3, stopped and looked in my mirror, then basically chipped it. This is pretty much all I am going to do until I feel like I could do it with perfect form to P3 at least 15 times in a row. Then I'll progress to very slow mechanical take away to P4.

 

My iPod just came in so now I can use mirror vision with my iPad. Intentionally skipping this weeks round so I can practice more and continue to develop/modify motor pathways.

 

 

 

Edited July 18 by JamesFisher1990

[glk]

I suggest you get some driveway markers from a big box store and do the drills i posted in my previous post.   You need feedback to make this change more efficiently - the markers give you this.   Btw, I had a similar issue and iteach got me on using the sticks drill - took 3 months but I ended up picking up 30 yards off the tee - changed my pattern from shallow to steep to steep to shallow.

 

and yes going slowly , like 30% is on the money to make a change - if you can do it 7/10 well then increase the speed, and so on.    Plus using video to check the motion is important but it alone only shows you what you are doing and doesn't provide feedback on the motion.

Edited July 18 by glk

[JetPilot]

I've been down this exact same path. A professional instructor may disagree but it looks to me like your turn is too aggressive to start which exacerbates this inside move and your hands aren't working well enough to get the club in a good position. To fix it I took the club back very slowly and deliberately to P3 and pretty much "just placed the club" in the proper position - and went from there. Even going that slowly to P3 I started hitting the ball better and farther than ever. It took me about 3 years to work up to a more normal tempo in the takeaway. I also spent a lot of time working on that position in my back yard. Even now, I still work on that position in slow motion at home. 

[JamesFisher1990]

11 hours ago, glk said:

I suggest you get some driveway markers from a big box store and do the drills i posted in my previous post.   You need feedback to make this change more efficiently - the markers give you this.   Btw, I had a similar issue and iteach got me on using the sticks drill - took 3 months but I ended up picking up 30 yards off the tee - changed my pattern from shallow to steep to steep to shallow.

 

and yes going slowly , like 30% is on the money to make a change - if you can do it 7/10 well then increase the speed, and so on.    Plus using video to check the motion is important but it alone only shows you what you are doing and doesn't provide feedback on the motion.

Funny enough I have some already that I  "borrowed" from my town and use as alignment sticks lol.

 

One thing I've noticed when looking at pro swings is that they manage to keep the rear arm/elbow more tucked... or maybe the better way to describe it is, they don't allow it to go behind them so much. This is a comparison I did last night after drilling for like 30-40minutes:

 

checking take away... Getting better but still not enough club going "up" movement

 

 

The rear elbow difference

[JamesFisher1990]

iTeach/Chris Ryan have forced me to sand a shiv out of my alignment stick for that drill lol - I'll see if I can post some video/photos after I give it a go.

Edited July 19 by JamesFisher1990

[JamesFisher1990]

15 hours ago, glk said:

I suggest you get some driveway markers from a big box store and do the drills i posted in my previous post.   You need feedback to make this change more efficiently - the markers give you this.   Btw, I had a similar issue and iteach got me on using the sticks drill - took 3 months but I ended up picking up 30 yards off the tee - changed my pattern from shallow to steep to steep to shallow.

 

and yes going slowly , like 30% is on the money to make a change - if you can do it 7/10 well then increase the speed, and so on.    Plus using video to check the motion is important but it alone only shows you what you are doing and doesn't provide feedback on the motion.

One thing I've noticed - because the driveway marker sticks out (I guess that's the whole point) and rests against the lead hip/leg, it forces my hands way forward. Are we supposed to normally address the ball with hands this forward? In my mirror, it looks like I'm adding an additional 10 or 15* of shaft lean, turning my 7i into a 4i.

 

I know flight will really come down to P6 impact but let's pretend I do 1,000 of these take aways from now until next weekend when I will try and play again, am I going to end up hitting mega low bullet irons with no spin?

[glk]

20 minutes ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

One thing I've noticed - because the driveway marker sticks out (I guess that's the whole point) and rests against the lead hip/leg, it forces my hands way forward. Are we supposed to normally address the ball with hands this forward? In my mirror, it looks like I'm adding an additional 10 or 15* of shaft lean, turning my 7i into a 4i.

 

I know flight will really come down to P6 impact but let's pretend I do 1,000 of these take aways from now until next weekend when I will try and play again, am I going to end up hitting mega low bullet irons with no spin?

Should be able to setup as usual.   I have an old club that has a stick in and just took my setup and my hands hang just inside my lead thigh as usual.   I assume you are doing the drill with the stick on the lead side.   

[JamesFisher1990]

3 hours ago, glk said:

Should be able to setup as usual.   I have an old club that has a stick in and just took my setup and my hands hang just inside my lead thigh as usual.   I assume you are doing the drill with the stick on the lead side.   

This is what I mean:

 

Normal set up

 

 

With the stick in the butt end, forces my hands way forward in order to keep the stick touching my hip

 

Looking at setups of some pro's, I guess my normal address shaft angle (where the butt faces) is pretty far back. I quickly looked at Jason Day and generally speaking, the butt of his club is in a line with his front shoulder. Mine looks to be just outside my front ear.

Edited July 18 by JamesFisher1990

[wagolfer7]

44 minutes ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

Looking at setups of some pro's, I guess my normal address shaft angle (where the butt faces) is pretty far back. I quickly looked at Jason Day and generally speaking, the butt of his club is in a line with his front shoulder. Mine looks to be just outside my front ear.

 

New setup is better.  If you had a ball position more forward, it will look less extreme.  

 

The trail elbow thing - I would watch this video.  You really spin out on the takeaway and just turn your body hard.  Learn how to move your shoulders correctly.  It will help your hips and body from turning incorrectly.  Moving your shoulders correctly will get your elbow to come into your body and bend earlier.  It will also get the club more vertical earlier and take care of the wrist hinge.  Shout out to @tthomasgolfer605.  I believe this is what he was trying to show you as well.  I don't think of my elbow, I just move my shoulders correctly and the elbow bends. 

 

Fair Warning - It's going to feel super weird.  

 

Watch from 0:45 to about 2:00.  That should give you a total different concept of how to move that club.  Don't turn the shoulder / hips horizontally. 

 

    

[glk]

53 minutes ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

This is what I mean:

 

Normal set up

 

 

With the stick in the butt end, forces my hands way forward in order to keep the stick touching my hip

 

Looking at setups of some pro's, I guess my normal address shaft angle (where the butt faces) is pretty far back. I quickly looked at Jason Day and generally speaking, the butt of his club is in a line with his front shoulder. Mine looks to be just outside my front ear.

That would have the ball way back for any club - specialty shot type sititation

[iacas]

10 hours ago, JamesFisher1990 said:

One thing I've noticed when looking at pro swings is that they manage to keep the rear arm/elbow more tucked... or maybe the better way to describe it is, they don't allow it to go behind them so much. This is a comparison I did last night after drilling for like 30-40minutes:

 

I prefer the bold MUCH MORE than "more tucked."