Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[dminn23]

Back on track....that picture in my avatar is one of my all time favorite pictures of Hogan. Look at how much leverage he has post impact. Shows how quiet he was with the arms down there and and how much he hit it with the pivot. Very connected. That ball was trapped and straight pee'd on.

[Tiltswing]

To me SF borrowed many of his idea's from others and then added them in a sequence where he though they might preform or conform to his teachings. I do not want any person here thinking I am speaking for FATS but if he has been around as long as he claims he would remember most of these drills. SF sounds like a great teacher and those here who are with him proclaim his influence on their swings. On the other hand S1, Martinez, Tiltswing, Dana, Lake, Magnum, and many others have helped many on this board who did not care for or maybe understand SF. If every idea someone puts up about Hogan is beat down being it is not what SF says, why are we hear... I have read some really interesting threads on here that are passed over and some that are argued for no end because one does not conform to that way of thinking. Thats crap if you ask most people on this board who are not in the SF school of thinking.

 

What we know about The Good Hogan that every one is trying to copy

 

1. His clubs were unique

2. He had right eye dominance that effected his set up.

3. He open the club going inside starting the swing.

4. He did not make a big hip turn till the club started up.

5. He was turning against his right leg, to find his left.

6. His flat plane an opening of the club bowed his left wrist.

7. While still in motion on the BS he came to be fully in his left leg.

8. On the DS the club would get laid off from torque and lateral motion which cause the face to point to the heavens.

9. The right elbow moved forward toward the ball from the laid off torque putting him in a position he had to use his upper body.

10. He made a hard rotary turn from the inside with so much lead he could not release the club except with the body.

11. The brunt of the release came after he reached 3 o'clock in the swing.

12 He finished well below the left shoulder and had tilt angle out over the ball in his spine.

13. He had extra spikes in his shoes.

 

 

Why are you using my name here? I have tremendous respect for SF's ideas, I know Lake does too, and I'm pretty sure Dana and Magnum do as well.

 

 

What ever guys I am not going to get in to a pissing contest with you and the though of it makes me laugh. You and the others you mention have helped others and hurt others but one thing is for sure not every thing you preach is out of the Slice of life golf book.

 

I'm done with that and if your not talking about Hogan him self there is no need for you to be on this Thread. Only responses from now on I will respond to are to be about Hogan. So, don't waste your time trying to pick a fight.

 

Uhhh...I wasn't looking for a fight to begin with. You know T-Bird, you seem to be very similar to BurleyGolf, who was kicked off and then registered again as texan_golf, and now you're back again as T-Bird? If you aren't BurleyGolf, I'll apologize right now, but you have exactly the same viewpoints, writing style, and make exactly the same spelling and grammatical errors as BurleyGolf (and that is by no means an insult, but clearly a way to identify someone on fourms like this). I really hope I'm wrong about this, because I don't see why you'd come back a third time. Even more interesting, you joined 14 days after texan_golf was banned.

[magnum184]

To me SF borrowed many of his idea's from others and then added them in a sequence where he though they might preform or conform to his teachings. I do not want any person here thinking I am speaking for FATS but if he has been around as long as he claims he would remember most of these drills. SF sounds like a great teacher and those here who are with him proclaim his influence on their swings. On the other hand S1, Martinez, Tiltswing, Dana, Lake, Magnum, and many others have helped many on this board who did not care for or maybe understand SF. If every idea someone puts up about Hogan is beat down being it is not what SF says, why are we hear... I have read some really interesting threads on here that are passed over and some that are argued for no end because one does not conform to that way of thinking. Thats crap if you ask most people on this board who are not in the SF school of thinking.

 

What we know about The Good Hogan that every one is trying to copy

 

1. His clubs were unique

2. He had right eye dominance that effected his set up.

3. He open the club going inside starting the swing.

4. He did not make a big hip turn till the club started up.

5. He was turning against his right leg, to find his left.

6. His flat plane an opening of the club bowed his left wrist.

7. While still in motion on the BS he came to be fully in his left leg.

8. On the DS the club would get laid off from torque and lateral motion which cause the face to point to the heavens.

9. The right elbow moved forward toward the ball from the laid off torque putting him in a position he had to use his upper body.

10. He made a hard rotary turn from the inside with so much lead he could not release the club except with the body.

11. The brunt of the release came after he reached 3 o'clock in the swing.

12 He finished well below the left shoulder and had tilt angle out over the ball in his spine.

13. He had extra spikes in his shoes.

 

Not that I think anyone believed the list of people you gave that don't care for or understand Slicefixer, but I will set the record straight, right here and now. I have the utmost respect for that man. He made a heck of an impression on me. I learned more reading his posts in 3 months than maybe 10 years of reading anything and everything I could get my hands on. That is the honest truth.

 

In other words, you can remove my name from that list.

 

Thank you.

[JD3]

Why do you think so many people follow Sevam1, Jim Hardy, P&B, or Dana they all have ton's of followers on their forums? Your question can go both ways, the interesting part of your message or tone is you think I am bashing SF.. I actually agree with many of his thoughts but as an individual and a grownup it is my choice to pick and choose what I let in or believe. Many of you think he has figured out everything about Hogan's swing and maybe he has but then I would ask why are so many people on this thread with different idea's.

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, how did Slice and Sevam1 get on? Are they generally in agreement? What are the points of disagreement?

 

 

I think you would have to ask both of them as none of us probably know, nor should anyone speak for anyone else. This isn't an A vs B thread anyways. Its about Hogan.

Some might know who've followed these boards longer as both Slice and Sevam have obviously two of the most influential posters (probably the two most influential.) This thread in particular is filled with posts on Sevam and Slice in the general discussion of Hogan and my questions are wholly consistent with the thread. No one needs you to determine what's worthy of a reply.

[Lake]

If you could get the sun behind your back where the shadow of your head was about a foot out past the ball.....where do you think most peoples shaft shadow would be if they were at the same point in the swing as Mr. Hogan is below....I think it would be closer to the ball for most folks.

[Lake]

Look at the shadow again and see the head is in the same place as pre-impact and the angle of the shaft on the ground reflects a nice pivot release. The shadow can really help w/ checking alignments..... as a kid I used to practice at a lighted driving range in Glendora, CA at the same time of night most weeks....I got so use to the same shadow alignment that when I was on the course a different shadow direction messed w/ my mojo :)

[TheNatural72]

Does anybody else think this Eightiron guy has literally nothing to offer this forum except belittling other people?? There are a lot of posters who offer at least something positive from time to time, but not Eightiron. As a matter of fact I have yet to see any new or enlightening information come from him at all.

 

Eight, any of us can go out and read golf books and study videos and then come to the forum and repeat what we have seen, heard or read. Dude, you really act like a know it all, but offer nothing of substance. You need a reality check bro..

 

No Sour Grapes from me Bro....

 

Must have upset you...don't see how..just asking why there is a 12 inch difference in belt buckle position..if its Hogan's Secret

Nope i don't read books..no time ...spend too much time playing and practicing

Just post what i see..maybe you don't like that cause it doesn't fit into your world

 

This thread is about Hogan's Secret....Slicefixer's students seem very close to me...and believe me I gave it a long long long hard look

 

So what's your opinion on Hogan's secret?

 

 

Hey Eight,

I suppose it's just the way you say some of the things you do. From my experience on internet golf forums, there seems to be a sort of Jealously that goes on when someone comes along and garners some attention. It really appeared to me that instead of trying to find the common ground in each and everybody's opinions, it turns to finger pointing and trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. The next thing you know everybody is picking sides and people start getting offended and belittled.

 

I know that when Slice Fixer was online everyday and helping, and giving his advice and sharing his Encyclopedia, everybody on the forum was clamoring for him and asking for advice. Not long after that He was giving schools over in England and things were going along nicely. Around that time Sevam's thread became a huge hit, and everyone started clamoring for Sevam. I slowly noticed that Slice's thread stayed at a meager 30 pages, while Sevam's jumped to 3 times that. I have not seen Slice around or posting very much since Sevam came to town. There was a New King of the Hill and Sevam was it. It is natural human instinct for ego and feeling to be involved and that is the way Golf forums go. I am not sure why Slice does not post hardly anymore, but I myself think they both have a lot of positive things to offer and their is certainly room enough for all of on the world wide web.

 

NOw with that being said, I think Slicefixer and Sevam both have their hearts in the right place and genuinely want to help golfers improve and increase their knowledge about the golf swing. I Don't think neither one of them intended for sides to be chosen and for fights and moderators to have to enforce rules on the gangs that have formed.

 

Everybody still has something they can still learn about the golf swing and everybody has their own swing thoughts and secrets that work for their swing and body type. Except me because Im perfect. :lol:

 

 

Finally, I apologize for getting off topic gang..so I will talk about Hogan..

I think Hogan's secret is something very simple and it was something he discovered while at home. It wasn't out on the practice range. He took it to the range and it worked. I believe he was looking in a mirror at his swing from down the line and saw it. It is the simplest thing in the world and nobody talks about it. I come in peace by the way... :man_in_love:

[fats]

Look at the shadow again and see the head is in the same place as pre-impact and the angle of the shaft on the ground reflects a nice pivot release. The shadow can really help w/ checking alignments..... as a kid I used to practice at a lighted driving range in Glendora, CA at the same time of night most weeks....I got so use to the same shadow alignment that when I was on the course a different shadow direction messed w/ my mojo :)

 

 

I've looked at those pictures a 100 times and never did see what you pointed out regarding the shadow and the ball...incredible. Thanks Lake...great stuff.

[moefan]

"Finally, I apologize for getting off topic gang..so I will talk about Hogan..

I think Hogan's secret is something very simple and it was something he discovered while at home. It wasn't out on the practice range. He took it to the range and it worked. I believe he was looking in a mirror at his swing from down the line and saw it. It is the simplest thing in the world and nobody talks about it. I come in peace by the way... :man_in_love: "

 

 

What do you think he saw?

 

 

Moefan

[fats]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

[JD3]

What do you think he saw?

 

 

Moefan

“Man looks in the abyss, there’s nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss.”

 

i.e. he found the character to stop four-putting away majors!

[moefan]

What do you think he saw?

 

 

Moefan

"Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss."

 

i.e. he found the character to stop four-putting away majors!

 

 

I like that!

 

moefan

[xiaoxiong]

Hey Eight,

I suppose it's just the way you say some of the things you do. From my experience on internet golf forums, there seems to be a sort of Jealously that goes on when someone comes along and garners some attention. It really appeared to me that instead of trying to find the common ground in each and everybody's opinions, it turns to finger pointing and trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. The next thing you know everybody is picking sides and people start getting offended and belittled.

 

I know that when Slice Fixer was online everyday and helping, and giving his advice and sharing his Encyclopedia, everybody on the forum was clamoring for him and asking for advice. Not long after that He was giving schools over in England and things were going along nicely. Around that time Sevam's thread became a huge hit, and everyone started clamoring for Sevam. I slowly noticed that Slice's thread stayed at a meager 30 pages, while Sevam's jumped to 3 times that. I have not seen Slice around or posting very much since Sevam came to town. There was a New King of the Hill and Sevam was it. It is natural human instinct for ego and feeling to be involved and that is the way Golf forums go. I am not sure why Slice does not post hardly anymore, but I myself think they both have a lot of positive things to offer and their is certainly room enough for all of on the world wide web.

 

 

kidwilson33, sorry man. Your implication of jealousy and ego is just your own imagination. Maybe one day you meet Slice and see the man himself. He is a GREAT teacher, but he is even a BETTER person.

 

The relative inactivity of SLICE is answered very clearly Nov. 14 last year here:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...mensional+slice

 

"jarid, believe me I'm more than aware that this site has sometimes seemed like "Slicefixer.com"........but, I made NO effort to create this beyond attempting to help people with their golf games and occasionally participating in some pretty spirited debates regarding various subjects, etc........in fact, I've intentionally greatly curtailed my posting activities so as to AVOID the perception that I was attempting to dominate this site........I'm fully aware that it's NOT my site and that others should have their say and not feel funny about stating their opinions.........I would hate to in anyway inhibit others from stating their opinions............I will, from time to time, interject into a thread if I think the subject is interesting or if I know something being stated is BS.......however, I don't get involved in those types of debates anymore as I figure I've pretty much stated my opinions at some point in the past and there is no point in repeating em'......as a result, I've sorta' "retired" from avidly posting due to time constraints and the desire to let others have their say.........

"

 

BTW, If you know the history between 8iron and Slice, you should be shocked by the turnaround of 8iron.

 

Back to the topic...

 

Cheers,

[magnum184]

What can you see in the waggle?

 

 

 

 

Mexico City Footage has nice views as well.

[dlygrisse]

I was just wondering, can anybody guess as to how many secrets do we think Hogan had? So far from what I remember it's the cupped wrist, pivot action, grip, foot torque with an extra spike, elbows pointing towards hips, shoot.....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

 

 

 

 

Hogan said undo every naturally inclined motion back-wards and you would be more close to making great golf swing. This might be his secret??? At the time every one was "two plane" and Hogan was a complete opposite. He did get in the correct positions but no in a frame that would photo "two plane"...

 

 

Ok, now I know you mentioned before that you don't like how posts are called out all the time, but you really need to take a look at what you just wrote. "At a time when everyone was two plane" ?!

 

Everyone was ONE PLANE back then sir. Jack brought the two plane craze to the world.

 

Check out the end of this vid where they show Gary Player, Arnie Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, and Mike Souchak DTL. Each of them are blatantly one plane except jack.

 

 

Others I can think of who had very inside handpaths and were one plane are Sam Snead, Chi Chi, Doug Sanders, Julius Boros, Gay Brewer, Ken Venturi, Gene Littler, and the list goes on. That is just off the top of my head. And I'm 23 years old. I'm sure some of our more experienced members could list another 20.

 

With the exception of Billy Casper I can't think of many two planers from that era at all. I'm sure there were some others, but the overwhelming majority were inside handpath one plane swingers (not TGM swingers just players).

 

Bobby Jones took it back inside and came over it a little, but perfectly on plane. the biggest contrast to this was probably Byron Nelson, he really started the whole two plane, slide the hips forward thing, he was called the "father of the modern swing" Byron BTW was the exact same age as Hogan, and was the one person who Hogan could really never beat, Nelso quit competive golf after his big 1945 season, I believe played a little in 1946 and then basically called it quits, Hogan found his secret in 1946 I believe, so while they were contemporaries their peaks did not really overlap. Point is Byron was the first player to really teach more of a two plane method, he did it because he felt with the new steel shafts of the era that the old hickory swing in which they pronated the arms did not work and caused you to hook, he overcame this with a more upright swing and using his legs "like a rocking chair" Hogan who came up in the same era in the same home town found a totally differnet method to overcome the hooks, just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat. BTW Venturi no less, stated that Nelson was a better ball striker than Hogan, but Hogan managed his game better. There are many people who think Nelson was the best ball striker they ever saw, he was just robbed of playing in most of the majors during his prime because of a little world affair know as WWII. During his 18 win season in 1945 there was only one major, the PGA and he won it.

[martinez]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

[asprin02]

another of hisownslicefixerself

 

I don't post around here much, but do follow the threads from time to time. After I saw this video I immediately thought about an Anthony Kim video I have seen. To me they have a lot in common, anyone agree? Not trying to switch the topic off of Hogan, and I am not saying Kim swings exactly like Hogan, just pointing this out.

 

Kim Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuu6KJZMUdg...feature=related

[Ezgolfer]

That is such a great swing shot . My all time favourite of recent tour players swing . On plane from end to end .

Beautiful rhythmic .....

[D'KRUSHER]

This is a highly detailed, 3 - D look, mulitple angles, at Sergio Garcias Driver swing, and part advertisiment. As the bloke states " very Hoganesk" in a couple areas.

 

See Here:

 

http://www.motiongolf.com/golf-videos/Golf-Instruction.aspx

 

This really illustrates his dynamic, super turning, ultimate lag swing.

 

For the old timer's, and experienced pros, what do you think of this type of annalysis for teaching purposes ? Would we learn more about Mr.Hogan if we had him on MotionGolf ?

Here's a news video :

 

http://wcbstv.com/video/[email protected]

 

I think GolfTec has almost this same technology... but it's too pricey for me.

[JD3]

Serious question I'd look forward to everyone's opinion: at the start of the downswing, do you think Hogan did anything actively with his arms? I know he states that the downswing starts with the lower body, but when you see him rehearse the downswing movements in these videos, he appears to be coordinating the lower body movement with arm movement: specifically dropping the rear elbow downward and somewhat forward:

 

 

 

Is this "side arm" throwing motion essential? Or is arm movement essential at this point but it's characterized differently?

 

I came upon this question because when practising I note that if I allow my arms to remain passive from the top (i.e. wait for body momentum to bring them into hitting position), at times I find they can stay too high into the downswing. The result is I need slow my body turn down during impact to allow my arms to catch up. This also tends to bias toward a more "down the line" release. I especially don't want to be slowing my body turn (or anything) into impact.

 

Just looking for verification because I'm thinking that going into the wrong direction with an active arm move would be highly troublesome if it's not correct.

 

Thanks.

[martinez]

You need to aim the arms/hands as the body pulls hard left, then they can remain passive in terms of movement.

[JD3]

You need to aim the arms/hands as the body pulls hard left, then they can remain passive in terms of movement.

Can you describe this aiming movement?

[spider]

Serious question I'd look forward to everyone's opinion: at the start of the downswing, do you think Hogan did anything actively with his arms? I know he states that the downswing starts with the lower body, but when you see him rehearse the downswing movements in these videos, he appears to be coordinating the lower body movement with arm movement: specifically dropping the rear elbow downward and somewhat forward:

 

 

 

Is this "side arm" throwing motion essential? Or is arm movement essential at this point but it's characterized differently?

 

I came upon this question because when practising I note that if I allow my arms to remain passive from the top (i.e. wait for body momentum to bring them into hitting position), at times I find they can stay too high into the downswing. The result is I need slow my body turn down during impact to allow my arms to catch up. This also tends to bias toward a more "down the line" release. I especially don't want to be slowing my body turn (or anything) into impact.

 

Just looking for verification because I'm thinking that going into the wrong direction with an active arm move would be highly troublesome if it's not correct.

 

Thanks.

 

Be careful that slow motion is Hogan moving in slow motion not a regular speed move slowed down for viewing. He does that in the other video too and both times his slow motion swing iMHO is not really close to his real time swing.

 

Looking forward to responses to your question though as well. :)

[JD3]

When practiced my thoughts would be Hogan hand some arm movement so to get the hands working down and low. It would be feasible to believe that Hogan in competition simply went at it hard with the right shoulder working out and from an inside rotation and had no thought of his hands or arms.

I should have added in my earlier post, I feel if the arms are excessively passive the result can be an out and over the top move.

[martinez]

You need to aim the arms/hands as the body pulls hard left, then they can remain passive in terms of movement.

Can you describe this aiming movement?

If you had a handgun and you aimed it....what arm movement would you require to remain on target if you started to move your body? I'm going to say you would need your shoulder ball joint to rotate but that the arm itself would just...with great intention....attempt to remain on target.

 

Be careful that slow motion is Hogan moving in slow motion not a regular speed move slowed down for viewing. He does that in the other video too and both times his slow motion swing iMHO is not really close to his real time swing.

 

Looking forward to responses to your question though as well. :)

 

You are missing a fantastic opportunity IMHO to get an idea of Hogans' intention as he swings. Of course it's not the same.....what you are seeing is the forces of acceleration minus the speed and energy of the swinging clubs mass. Be careful you don't dismiss things before you have a chance to learn from them.

 

He shows the entire swing....right down to the little slap he gives it to compliment the rotation.

[PurePursuit]

The arms don't remain passive in a sense that they are noodles and go any which way. This is where I like when people reference essential pressure points. The arms remain connected via the left arm pit/shoulder and the weight of the club is pulled down though that point which connects to the left thumb (for me). Seems to increase the angle between the shaft and my left arm and gives me a true sense of lag. its the sequence and connection and allow the chain reaction to occur.

[Dariusz J.]

The arms don't remain passive in a sense that they are noodles and go any which way. This is where I like when people reference essential pressure points. The arms remain connected via the left arm pit/shoulder and the weight of the club is pulled down though that point which connects to the left thumb (for me). Seems to increase the angle between the shaft and my left arm and gives me a true sense of lag. its the sequence and connection and allow the chain reaction to occur.

 

Yep, this is it, PP. Add only the right elbow/forearm turboing to it and it would be a good description of what Mr.Hogan probably did. One thing is sure, from biomechanical point of view, that he could not pull using his left arm only.

 

Cheers

[fats]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

 

 

I wuz hoping you see it...I'm guessing it changes quite a bit of what you were thinking...This is a VIP pic Martinez...good one to save.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

What can you see in the waggle?

 

 

 

 

Mexico City Footage has nice views as well.

 

what do you see magnum184 ? do you have any preliminary theorys shall we call them to avoid any downtoscratch like fear of posting.

IMHO its silly to look at a swing without looking at the waggle, maybe that says more about how i play than anything else, i always waggle, even when im working on a new setup which for some reason doesnt have a waggle, ill do a waggle pre-setup.

[iteachgolf]

That is why fitting is important. It doesn't matter what they come standard know your specs. I play off a 59* five iron which is way flat by a lot of standards.