miura,vega epon just too exspensive?

[andy-uk]

my course pro shop had just had some new stock fron japan forged co. vage,epon etc. the wedges start at £150.00 each and some epon irons will hurt to the tune of £1300.00 they surely can't be worth the money are they really better than ping,nike mizuno etc.... if these clubs were that good would'nt all tour pro use them.i understand there is a market for exclusive kit but come on to pay that sort of money for irons only to get beat in the monthly medal to a 14hcp playing 10yr old callaway?

[jebb]

Andy- I went into a pro shop here just before Christmas and saw the pro boxing up a display of Fourteen, Yururi and other Japanese wedges. They were priced from £145.

 

He hadnt sold a one. Anyone buying was opting for Ping, Callaway and Titleist.

[jaskanski]

They are too expensive - IMO.

There are several different other clubs that will do the same job for a lot less money. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling the quality of these forgings into question. They certainly look like they do the business. But double the price of domestic equipment? No thanks.

There always seems to be an air of mystique surrounding niche Japanese forgings. It's almost as if those who choose to buy them think they are buying a samurai sword type of golf club that will turn them into a golfing version of a ninja.

The feel factor is not any discernable level better than anything else currently available either - cast or forged. And they certainly wear just as much as anything else.

It's just that as long as many people will declare how good they are, enough people will believe them - even if they've never even tried them.

A bit like the emperors new clothes really. But that's just my opinion.

[tokyo jo]

Why not try a japanese forged wedge and THEN decide if they are worth the money or not! I've got yururi wedges (paid £135 for each) and there's no way I'd go back to the mass produced wedges on sale for around the 90 quid mark. The ball flight, spin and distance control is just remarkable. Are they value for money - I certainly think so.

 

You haven't got to go to far back in time and everyone was paying about £65 for a Ping putter and then Scotty came along with a £200 Newport...

[JD3]

Miura forging of Cleveland 588 wedge was a cool idea.

 

I'm not going to blow $500 on her, but although I've always liked the look of the 588's I found the casting made it much too hot around the greens. I don't see why Cleveland can't just some find a decent chinese or american company to do the same for them and sell at acceptable prices

[bloodredsun]

Given the current economic climate it's difficult to justify spending large amounts of money on new gear but I have to disagree with you - if YOU feel they are worth it then they are worth it.

 

'if these clubs were that good would'nt all tour pro use them'

 

Money talks on Tour and pros pay what they are paid to play. This why Mizuno are now no longer the most played irons on Tour despite being generally acknowledged as making the best irons of the major OEMs. The competition for clubs for pros who have 11 club deals or the like is incredibly fierce so if someone like Vega manages to get a full set of wedges in the bag of someone like Colin Montgomerie, without paying him to use them, then you know that they can't be too bad. The cost will always be an issue and some people will use the price as a bragging right but that's the same for anything.

 

I think that another reason is that it is difficult to find demo clubs for the likes of Vega, Miura, Fourteen, Scratch and so on. I only know a couple of places and these tend to be the main distributor in the UK.

 

And I would have to disagree on the feel. I know it's only my opinion but nothing feels like a Japanese forged wedge, with the Vega RAFW-05 being the best feeling wedges I've ever come across.

[joey3108]

Armani, Izei Miyake, Prada, etc , etc.... Can't afford it.

 

Butch Harmon, David Leadbetter, Jim Flick, etc, etc .... Can't afford it.

 

So I never though of even looking or trying it, but yet I won't be mad or b1tching about their pricing because I can't afford it.

 

More power to them and I respect them for how good they are and how much they can charge for their products.

 

Sure I talked about it with friends and give my opinions with an open eyes. Anything fit to our eyes and pocket, we'll be happy to spend it to satisfy our need at our personal level. I'm sure they don't expect any body from any level of society to buy their products.

 

We have to be realistic judging what life is all about, then we'll be a much happier man even we can't afford a lot of thing in this world. Maybe we can wait for a used second one to be able to afford it and try, then our judgment will change, maybe not!

 

Just my opinions!

 

Joe

 

Quote: Easy to judge others, but we forgot to use our mirror properly every morning before we step out of the door.

[andy-uk]

as i said in my pervious thread i was told i could not demo them.as far as spin and control goes,that's talent not the wedge your playing.if you think it is ,then that up to you my friend but i have NEVER had a lession with a psg pro who has said "get some £150 wedges for better control,you don't need lessions on how to hit the shot" think about it you know im right.golf is all in the head if your ninja sticks work for you great,im happy for you.you said yourself that scottys are rip offs i know i brought one, but i love it.

[joey3108]

There you go!

 

That means we just have to be a smarter consumer, right?

 

Anything that fits our game will always be a good one no matter how much it is. At the end is the question of "Can I afford it or not?"...If I can't, life goes on!

 

Plenty of $10 wedge that will fit out game, as long as we are happy with it.

[shuttle1]

Why not try a japanese forged wedge and THEN decide if they are worth the money or not! I've got yururi wedges (paid £135 for each) and there's no way I'd go back to the mass produced wedges on sale for around the 90 quid mark. The ball flight, spin and distance control is just remarkable. Are they value for money - I certainly think so.

 

You haven't got to go to far back in time and everyone was paying about £65 for a Ping putter and then Scotty came along with a £200 Newport...

 

While I agree with you you're not going to win the argument because their are to many people that do not and will not ever get it. They don't want to get it.

 

It's true, some of these clubs cost more money and if you can't afford it then... move on to a set that you can.

 

But, most often times you get what you pay for. When I get my new Epons I don't have to take them to the club fitter to have the lie's, lofts, swing weights etc. checked and made right because the quality sucks. My clubs are spot on.

 

Quality, to me, is always worth spending a bit more on.

 

Why does someone buy a Lexus when they can buy a Yugo... ?

[tokyo jo]

Don't you wonder why the Callaway "Tour Authentic" wedges retail at £150 and the Irons at £1100. And where are they forged......oh yeah, Japan. So as to your question about Tour Pros - well there's your answer!

[rankoutsider]

I agree 100 per cent with Joe here. Yes, they are very, very expensive and that is too bad, since many of us want them but can't justify the expense or afford them. So then we have to pass them buy. A few of us want Porsches and Jags as well, but it isn't in the cards for us. There will always be status items out there that are not really better than the ho-hum ones, and those aren't designed to be for everyone. You could argue that a Porsche is a better car than a Camry, but both will get you to the grocery store just as effectively.

 

What I do wish, however, is that demoing these clubs was a bit easier. I make a decent wage, and don't really spend money on anything but golf, so I would buy a set of Miura blades, but if I buy them now, it is based purely on hype and other testimonials, because I can't find the one I want in a demo. The same with Scratch. A new set of blades will cost me 2000, but I am in Canada and can't get the blade in left hand to try. So I would be pretty stupid to buy them off the web without trying them.

 

Tour pros will always have this kind of gear. If there is any even vague whiff that it is of better quality, and your livelihood depends on it, then why not.

[JD3]

Don't you wonder why the Callaway "Tour Authentic" wedges retail at £150 and the Irons at £1100. And where are they forged......oh yeah, Japan. So as to your question about Tour Pros - well there's your answer!

Japan has been known for centuries for quality metalworks. So the proliferation of smaller forged Japanese clubmakers, especially in a golf-mad country, is not surprising. Although I don't doubt the quality of the forgings, the question I do have is the quality of the head design. Specifically how can these companies compete with the likes of the big OEMs in testing head design and performance? I'm concerned the head designs are as simple as head designs from the 40's and 50's when long irons had to be hit near the heel to get any performance. That's why something a proven head design like Cleveland 588 but forged by a high end Japanese company like Miura has appeal to me ... the $500 price tag doesn't. A price point I'd be interested in would max out in the $180 range.

[tokyo jo]

An interesting quetion re club design and development. Take Royal Collection as a good example. Generally un-heard of over here, but they designed and developed fabulous fairway woods and hybrids. Then licenced the design to Sonartec and world domination followed! (ok - a slight exaggeration, but just go to a Tour event and see how many Sonartecs are still in the bags of todays players)

[JD3]

An interesting quetion re club design and development. Take Royal Collection as a good example. Generally un-heard of over here, but they designed and developed fabulous fairway woods and hybrids. Then licenced the design to Sonartec and world domination followed! (ok - a slight exaggeration, but just go to a Tour event and see how many Sonartecs are still in the bags of todays players)

Sonartec was a great fairway wood head, no doubt. But was it a "hit or miss" success or the product of real testing? For every small company that scores a hit like that, how many failures are there?

 

Look, I'm not damming this stuff, I think Japanese forgings in general are the best (although old Hogan's and Wilson staffs were 2nd to none.) I just want some comfort the head design has some real design in it. Maybe Tourstage with the oversight by major OEM Bridgestone is a good choice. Or what about more of the Cleveland 588 Miura-type offerings? The head design is already done so there's no cost there and maybe it gets done cheaper. Maybe major OEMs just dont want to be seen as outsourcing their forgings and diluting their brand with another?

[jebb]

I think Joe has hit the nail on the head. If the tools fit your game and they are worth it to you you'll pay the extra.

 

As I said the pro I talked to said they were lovely products but he just couldnt get the club members to appreciate their value. They were all priced at £145 and Callaways/Pings/Vokeys were £69-£79.

 

And hence literally none of the ones in his shop display of about 30 wedges had sold while the Callaway X-Forged, Ping Tour Ws and Titleist Vokeys were being bought.

 

Personally with the economy being what it is and not gtetting the chance to demo them I cant justify spending the money on them. To be honest if I could the ones I would go for would be the Scratches or Miuras that Joe Kwok grinds. I have never seen a better looking wedge.

 

It doesnt make me hate them though either. Just something to aspire to one day.

[andy-uk]

im expecting a backlash here but i think these super ninja clubs are for people more intrested in how they look rather tham how they play? eg i play vega shoot 97 today? :clapping:

[joey3108]

It depends on how it fits your game and skill IMO!

[andy-uk]

very good point.im off 15hcp so there not designed for me! even if i could feel the quality. my clevelands are classic and perfect. and 40.00quid each!!!

[shuttle1]

im expecting a backlash here but i think these super ninja clubs are for people more intrested in how they look rather tham how they play? eg i play vega shoot 97 today? :clapping:

 

I currently play off of a two handicap. Expect to give the handicap up this year and play scratch.

 

Backlash:

You need to use spell check or complete your education.

[herrsonic]

yes it is expensive for most people. For other people, it is not. I have tried titleist, callaway, cleveland and everything out there. The JDM stuff is better.

[SoulmanZ]

anyone who thinks they are a rip off are hippocrits, unless they play blades from the 40s-80s

 

you can pick up a full set of irons for $10-$40US plus shipping, and if you know what you are looking for they rival almost any forging today

 

so all the people who go "my clubs are just fine, and they were only $40 each" has just bought in to hype as well. any OEM is overpriced compared to superseeded gear. forging blades has not changed, and cavity backs have been the same since the first ping karsten. you are paying for the touring pros who use them

 

at the end of the day though, any club that makes you confident when you place it behind the ball is worth the money, be it a hogan bounce sole, a mizuno mp33 or scratch blades

[Gxgolfer]

I understand the that we have people from around the world in this thread so please behave like golfers with proper etiquette and behavior please.

[Duffy19]

my course pro shop had just had some new stock fron japan forged co. vage,epon etc. the wedges start at £150.00 each and some epon irons will hurt to the tune of £1300.00 they surely can't be worth the money are they really better than ping,nike mizuno etc.... if these clubs were that good would'nt all tour pro use them.i understand there is a market for exclusive kit but come on to pay that sort of money for irons only to get beat in the monthly medal to a 14hcp playing 10yr old callaway?

 

The US Dom./Eqip. button is the one above the imported/JDM equip on the home page and it is you choice to go there. You can basically attack every thread in this sub forum if you want but buying JDM is just a personal choice. So no one in you club buys JDM. So what? Epon is selling like hot cakes in my club in Hong Kong. If you dont want to spend the money, that's fine but why would anyone need to justify their purchase or price to golfers in the UK who pay more for anything anyway. BTW, we can demo any JDM you can think of here in Hong Kong and a set of custom Epon would be around GBP700-800 for 6 irons.

[JD3]

It's my understanding in Japan that Mizunos are just one of many top forgings ... good, yes, but overall nothing special. I think Bridgestone (including Tourstage) far outsells them. Mizunos brilliance was developing a production process that retained the better forging characteristics but could also be made in a volume and price that works for the US and Euro markets. This also required them to come up with head designs that appeal to American golfers, as Japanese irons at the time tended to be longer and much shallower.

 

Anyway, I like the look of this Mizuno MP27 ... just wish it were available in the US and in left handed too ....

:beee:

 

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/proshop/p169/M...oduct_info.html

[golf_junkie27]

Andy,

 

Have you thought about purchasing these items through other outlets? For example, I've been on TourSpecGolf and have seen Muira heads for as little as $600. You can throw some PX or other shafts and have a complete set for less than a $1000. IMHO, a full set of Muira irons for less than $1000 is a steal.

 

With the Sterling Pound having more value than the dollar, it would be even cheaper for you, no?

[Duffy19]

Andy,

 

Have you thought about purchasing these items through other outlets? For example, I've been on TourSpecGolf and have seen Muira heads for as little as $600. You can throw some PX or other shafts and have a complete set for less than a $1000. IMHO, a full set of Muira irons for less than $1000 is a steal.

 

With the Sterling Pound having more value than the dollar, it would be even cheaper for you, no?

 

 

This might have been true 6 to 9 months ago but have you seen the exchange value of the GBP against the USD lately?

[potatofu]

Expensive is such a personal and relative concept. To many people in my country, spending $30-50 to whack a dimpled ball into a hole is "too expensive".

 

In order to make a reasonable opinion on the price/quality of JDM, you must at least have some experiences with Japanese culture. I remember it was 8 years ago when I looked at a friend's Japanese mobile phone, and the features were light years ahead of what was available outside of Japan. The Japanese and Koreans had mobile banking and mobile transaction systems in place faster than almost everyone else. And yet the most popular smart phones today are the Blackberry, Palm and iPhone.

 

Mystique does play a part in why many people choose JDM, but I doubt that it is the major reason for them to do so.

 

A standard mini cooper costs $50,000 in my country, is that expensive?

[psytanto]

My only experience of blades is that "I can't hit them". And I never bought into the Japanese mystique or hypes especially their prices about any made in Japan merchandises. Until I demo my current MG702 irons and decided to swap them with my 10 years old Callaway. My yardage increased about 7 - 10 yards. Just this afternoon, a fella at the range had the same experience and he was amazed by it. Andy, why not just give them a try, you owe it to yourself.

[rge]

I started playing this game using U.S. branded clubs. By the way, I'm here in the Philippines and to a great extent, US brands and JDM brands sell at comparable prices. I have had my share of Taylormade's, Callaway's, Cobra's just as I have had Mizuno's, Honma's and Maruman's. Being a habitual tinkerer of clubs, I have been witness to how off-spec some brands can be and how close to spec they can also be. Just objectively speaking, JDM clubs almost always have tighter manufacturing tolerances. The level of build quality also seems to be higher with the JDM clubs. This is not to say that the U.S. clubs are shoddy. Not at all. I have enjoyed playing my TM's and others just as I do the JDM brands. I will not deny though that I like the JDM's by some margin because firstly, they fit me and the aesthetic aspects appeals to my eyes. These are subjective traits so your opinions may differ. I also feel a certain pride of ownership with the JDM's because they are more akin to surgical implements rather than utilitarian implements but again, this is subjective. Just my 2 cents.