miura,vega epon just too exspensive?

[jaskanski]

Some people only buy German cars, some people only drink French wine. Doesn't really mean they are any superior to any other countries respective product - it's all a matter of personal taste.

The same thing applies to Japanese forgings. You pay your money and take your choice at the end of the day - and beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. But are they really better?

Feel is completely subjective and can be dismissed as impossible to ascertain from person to person. Performance is also entirely subjective from player to player. Quality is second to none - of that there is no doubt.

However, perusing some of the signatures on this thread, I'd have to say that some of these are nothing more than "trophy bags" - much in the same way someone would collect fine wines or Swiss watches. Wether or not some of these people actually own these clubs is uncertain.....

Surgical instruments may be a good analogy - they are made to fine tolerances but at the same time you don't really throw surgical instruments into turf on a regular basis.

[tokyo jo]

I talked to an ex European Tour player who said even 10 years ago his major OEM clubs were forged in Japan, unlike clubs available for retail sale. There's been much debate about where Tiger's Titleist clubs were forged, same for a number of the Top 20 players in the world.

 

The irony of your comments is, when it comes to Tour players, the clubs they use don't always match the logo on the bag. Luke Donald pulls his Mizuno headcover off his Titleist driver etc etc etc. Why do think The Cleveland 588 wedge is forged by Miura??

 

As I said earlier - try them and then tells us we're all being duped by the hype...

[Duffy19]

Some people only buy German cars, some people only drink French wine. Doesn't really mean they are any superior to any other countries respective product - it's all a matter of personal taste.

The same thing applies to Japanese forgings. You pay your money and take your choice at the end of the day - and beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. But are they really better?

Feel is completely subjective and can be dismissed as impossible to ascertain from person to person. Performance is also entirely subjective from player to player. Quality is second to none - of that there is no doubt.

However, perusing some of the signatures on this thread, I'd have to say that some of these are nothing more than "trophy bags" - much in the same way someone would collect fine wines or Swiss watches. Wether or not some of these people actually own these clubs is uncertain.....

Surgical instruments may be a good analogy - they are made to fine tolerances but at the same time you don't really throw surgical instruments into turf on a regular basis.

 

At the end of the day, it does not matter whether JDM is better or not or whether it is worth the money. You would be happier with the US Dom. Equip regardless (remember the 1st button?) and we would be happy with the 2nd button or our 'over-priced' JDM and our 'trophy bags'.

[coops]

my course pro shop had just had some new stock fron japan forged co. vage,epon etc. the wedges start at £150.00 each and some epon irons will hurt to the tune of £1300.00 they surely can't be worth the money are they really better than ping,nike mizuno etc.... if these clubs were that good would'nt all tour pro use them.i understand there is a market for exclusive kit but come on to pay that sort of money for irons only to get beat in the monthly medal to a 14hcp playing 10yr old callaway?

 

Your main problem is UK pricing.

 

You could click over to Tourspecgolf.com and order 5-PW Epon 301's for just under 1100 US dollars (not 1300 UK pounds), and choose from a huge variety of shafts, and for $90 extra get the set with KBS tours....

 

In Thailand, the standard price for the Epon sets is more or less the same as you'd pay for a set of off the rack Tourstage irons amongst others like Ping etc.

 

The Japanese forging companies will provide their expertise for many of the usual brands you can pick up anywhere - Endo is one of the major ones (Epon being their 'house' brand).....

 

 

Coops

[shuttle1]

FWIW

 

The OP will not be responding anytime soon. A Gentleman he's not. We'll just leave it at that.

 

Bunch of us had a big Testing/Demo day planned today with a lot of the new US and JDM clubs in attendance...

raining. Going to try and put it together next weekend

[JD3]

What does "JDM" stand for? Also, I heard Mizuno heads are now being made in China. That true?

[PGE]

Hi Andy - I would love to know the shop that you saw the Vega clubs in who didn't have demo's.. doesn't sound like a stockist of mine and if it is I need to have words! You can check our stockists at www.vega-golf.com on the 'stockists page' .. all of whom have demo clubs available for use as this is integral in the fitting process we believe Vega end users should expect. If the shop you saw them in isn't on the list, they are buying from an unauthorised supplier as we do not authorise anyone to resell our products to 3rd party retailers- beware!

As for are Japanese clubs too expensive, that's a personal thing. We have many, many very happy customers and continue to grow year on year. If you have not had chance to try Vega, maybe we can help you with that?? Perhaps then you will agree they are fantastic clubs, as to being able to justify the price that again is personal, the same as Gucci, Porsche etc etc.

Finally, I am a member on golfwrx simply to be able to help and answer questions or get involved in threads where I believe I can offer some help and advice. If you have any questions, please fire them across.

[joey3108]

The more I read this in this thread the more make me sad and yet laugh at the same time.

 

YES, quality & market will drive the price.

YES, Some OEM are better than others when it comes to "build on specs".

 

BUT, Don't ever believe that the spec are spots on for every one of us. Nothing better than "build for me and me only". Every OEM build their club with tolerance, so they can build them with the right speed for the money they spend on their employee's salary. None of those OEM come to my standard as far as my experience goes. Understandable & exceptable, because NO OEM will spend 4-5hrs to build a set of iron. I hate to say that, but that is what i can tell you guys and proven over and over again right in front of customers eyes. Is it critical to the performance and our game? It depends how far the specs is OFF from what you need. Most of them NO!

 

I build club in daily basis and handle pretty much more on the high end side of it for a reason. One of them is to build them to a customers specs to make sure he/she can't blame the club anymore (good luck on this :)). Most JDM (Japanese Domestic Manufacturer) specs doesn't fit for US market customers. This is why Miura, VEGA, KZG, etc, etc goes after a niche market. They are looking for a customers who are anal about their club and willing to spend their cash for it. Their biggest chalenge is to find a clubfitters and clubmakers who are really really knows what he is doing, Which IMO it has something to do with the OEM policy when it comes giving up their acct to these sellers and the individual self honest charracter of these sellers to give what he promise to the customers.

 

So bottom line to this discussion is to spend within what you think is RIGHT for every aspect of your individual needs. Life is unfair and stressful, but we don't need to add with bickering what we can't/won't get (Work harder/make more money if you think you want one). Of course for them who can afford it... don't need to brag or arrogant about it. Golf is all about beating the course and ourself to do better every time we go out there and make lots of friends.

 

It reminds me... I played with a guys who looks like a needy and just bought his club from K-MART and shot 2 under in front of my bare eyes, which I'm sure the spec of the club are all over the map. Despite how much and where he got the club from, Imagine if he got the club build to his specs or the specs are spot on from the shelf.

 

Long story short, I found out he was Corey Pavin ex team mate from UCLA. LMAO! He just got back into the game after 9 years lay off. :D

 

For god sake, this is an internet forum where everybody is a genius, expert, hit 300 yards, rich, etc, etc. Lighten up and smile will ya! :)

[jacksonlui]

I've been a member of several forums and in the last few years I've been entranced with all the woohaha about JDM.

I've gone through so many sets of Miuras, Epons, limited this, limited that, etc...

i went through many JDM drivers, wedges, irons, putters, shafts that cost more than I want to recall..in the end this is what I've learned:

 

You have to try for yourself and see if it's worth it to you. IMO, IT IS expensive and it's hard to justify when there are a lot of good domestic equipment out there. Any hobby can get expensive, and to me this is just a hobby. I don't really mind paying more for something that's different and rare, besides the resale value on JDM is very good. it allows me to switch-up all the time. so if you think that's it's too expensive it's most likely the case and you're better off just sticking to something domestic and using it for a long time. I like to "ho" so every time I buy something domestic and try to sell it, I lose my shirt. In the long run it's cheaper to go JDM. so for me, it's not TOO expensive. a very different perspective and your mileage will vary.

 

think of it this way...it's a lot cheaper than going the tour issued route and paying thousands on a lime colored shaft that fits a 200mph swing.

 

Jack

[varsityhacker]

Andy, JDM gear is better IMHOP. I have played every major OEM product and they don't compare in feel or quality. Is it more expense yep it is but, when I hit my Epon's or Tourstage irons I think it is worth every penny. Everyone that I allow to hit my irons is blow away by them and they all say the same thing what are those and where did I get them.

 

Get the Vega's and some other forged OEM club's and do a test for yourself. I think when you are done you will agree that the Vega's are just a better iron even if you won't pay the tab to get a set.

[rankoutsider]

OK, you guys have convinced me. I am trying to get a Miura 6 iron to demo. I am likely to buy the LH blades from Miura Canada.

[TheIronChef]

Been playing golf for a couple years. Only to have found out Miura is in my hometown today. :mellow: :mellow: They are all sold in private golf clubs tho, don't know if we can buy them there.

[SwingMan]

Don't you wonder why the Callaway "Tour Authentic" wedges retail at £150 and the Irons at £1100. And where are they forged......oh yeah, Japan. So as to your question about Tour Pros - well there's your answer!

Japan has been known for centuries for quality metalworks. So the proliferation of smaller forged Japanese clubmakers, especially in a golf-mad country, is not surprising. Although I don't doubt the quality of the forgings, the question I do have is the quality of the head design. Specifically how can these companies compete with the likes of the big OEMs in testing head design and performance? I'm concerned the head designs are as simple as head designs from the 40's and 50's when long irons had to be hit near the heel to get any performance. That's why something a proven head design like Cleveland 588 but forged by a high end Japanese company like Miura has appeal to me ... the $500 price tag doesn't. A price point I'd be interested in would max out in the $180 range.

 

If you want technology in irons, see Epon.

[canegolfer]

I have played every US OEM iron set and wedge on the market for the last ten years. I picked up a set of Epon AF 501 irons. I have never hit a better feeling, more solid club in my life. So expensive?-I say NO. Many people would pay anything to end the search for the perfect club. By the way, I also bought the wedges and AF 101 driver and AF 901 hybrid irions. It's all about the best quality for the money. Someone wrote "why don't tour players use them, if they are so good" Well they actually do. You will find that many tour irons, like Titleist are forged in Japan by ENDO (the company that makes Epon). They forge the "tour heads" and the store heads are made in China.

[Pilgrim Pete]

Hi there

 

I've recently purchased Giga Golf Japan Irons and raised the stakes by buying two VEGA RAFW08 wedges in 58 and 52 degrees. From my humble point of view the irons are supurb and in particular the wedges offer amazing spin and control from any situation in any condition. These wedges have transformed my play from 120 yards and in. I was fortunate enough to try them at one of the Maximus golf stores before commiting to a fully custom fitted set through them. I was only there for an hour and whilst being fitted i saw in their workshop at least 6 wedges, 3 sets of vega irons, and a couple of drivers waiting to be sent out to customers

 

 

 

I plan to try and gain some extra yardage off the tee by using Maximus Golf and their launch monitor to select another fantastic product.

[SwingMan]

I have played every US OEM iron set and wedge on the market for the last ten years. I picked up a set of Epon AF 501 irons. I have never hit a better feeling, more solid club in my life. So expensive?-I say NO. Many people would pay anything to end the search for the perfect club. By the way, I also bought the wedges and AF 101 driver and AF 901 hybrid irions. It's all about the best quality for the money. Someone wrote "why don't tour players use them, if they are so good" Well they actually do. You will find that many tour irons, like Titleist are forged in Japan by ENDO (the company that makes Epon). They forge the "tour heads" and the store heads are made in China.

 

I was wondering when Canegolfer would find Epon.

 

I demoed the 501s, and while I'm more of a 701 type, the 501s are amazing for a player's cb.

 

You did not purchase the 201 fairways? lol.

[TheCheat]

Don't you wonder why the Callaway "Tour Authentic" wedges retail at £150 and the Irons at £1100. And where are they forged......oh yeah, Japan. So as to your question about Tour Pros - well there's your answer!

Japan has been known for centuries for quality metalworks. So the proliferation of smaller forged Japanese clubmakers, especially in a golf-mad country, is not surprising. Although I don't doubt the quality of the forgings, the question I do have is the quality of the head design. Specifically how can these companies compete with the likes of the big OEMs in testing head design and performance? I'm concerned the head designs are as simple as head designs from the 40's and 50's when long irons had to be hit near the heel to get any performance. That's why something a proven head design like Cleveland 588 but forged by a high end Japanese company like Miura has appeal to me ... the $500 price tag doesn't. A price point I'd be interested in would max out in the $180 range.

 

If you want technology in irons, see Epon.

 

For the hell of it, what technology does Epon have that's different from what other OEM's are currently using?

[shuttle1]

Just for the Hell of it...

 

Compare this to how the majority of other clubs are made.

 

http://www.eponforged.com/technology?symfo...3e1b0aeac7fc88e

 

and

 

Epon Skunk Works:

The Skunk Works team is a group of specialized individuals given the task of working on advanced or secret projects, performing miracles, and forging the next generation golf technology today.

 

In a secret location somewhere in Japan, this team of Epon experts, designs tomorrow's clubs with the utmost care and attention to detail while remaining under the radar. The goal is to maintain the ultimate balance of performance along with next generation manufacturing techniques, creating a future without limits.

[joey3108]

Knowing how big ENDO factory is.

Knowing how big the OEM order is & market is.

Having visited the plan in Thailand with local connected friends.

 

Looking at the pictures, what Endo do to EPON or any OEM products will have no differences, except the head design. However, lots of these manufacturer's design got bought out to be use for other brands. Sooner or Later!

 

http://www.endo-mfg.co.jp/en/contents/outline/index.html

 

YES, Maybe Endo is one of the largest forging subcontractor in Japan for now due to the amount of contract they have and Japanese worker are well known for their work ethics to produce the best they can be. We might not want to forget that there are tons of damn good forging Companies out there in Japan, especially around Himeji area whom might have the same quality of result and might be better due to smaller scale for better management and better interaction to their clients. I won't be surprise!!!

 

At the end... money can buy us a golf club, but it won't buy us a game golf that shows in our score card. The time we spend on the course with friends and buying clubs that makes you happy are PRICELESS!

[JD3]

Are Mizuno heads still made in Japan? A golf store salesman told me they're now made in China.

[joey3108]

Are Mizuno heads still made in Japan? A golf store salesman told me they're now made in China.

 

Most are still forged in Japan and finishing in China.

 

Chuo is still the main forging house for most of Mizuno products. However, It won't matter to much IMO as Mizuno has their own standard to make those subcontractor do before they sign the contract.

[joey3108]

Here is one good article about it:

 

http://www.golfmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5200

 

Lots of factual than fiction IMO.

 

And Bare in mind, Most forging company in Japan are not only producing golf club and most of the golf club are only small part of their production. ie: Endo has been producing Kitchen ware before they start on golf club.

[JD3]

Here is one good article about it:

 

http://www.golfmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5200

 

Lots of factual than fiction IMO.

 

And Bare in mind, Most forging company in Japan are not only producing golf club and most of the golf club are only small part of their production. ie: Endo has been producing Kitchen ware before they start on golf club.

In Japan many companies are diversified conglomerates ... much more so than America. So you see them make many things. Example would be Mitsubushi-Rayon had many in America thinking Diamana's were made of rayon not graphite. LOL

 

Joe -- what are thoughts on my concern that the major OEMs (Titleist, Ping, TM, Callaway, Nike, Mizuno, Cleveland etc etc) have much better testing equipment for new head designs. And that by using a smallish company like Scratch you may get a better forging but it doesn't compensate for a less well designed head? It's that thinking that makes me favor Mizuno as I think of it as a quality forging from a major OEM.

[joey3108]

Here is one good article about it:

 

http://www.golfmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5200

 

Lots of factual than fiction IMO.

 

And Bare in mind, Most forging company in Japan are not only producing golf club and most of the golf club are only small part of their production. ie: Endo has been producing Kitchen ware before they start on golf club.

In Japan many companies are diversified conglomerates ... much more so than America. So you see them make many things. Example would be Mitsubushi-Rayon had many in America thinking Diamana's were made of rayon not graphite. LOL

 

Joe -- what are thoughts on my concern that the major OEMs (Titleist, Ping, TM, Callaway, Nike, Mizuno, Cleveland etc etc) have much better testing equipment for new head designs. And that by using a smallish company like Scratch you may get a better forging but it doesn't compensate for a less well designed head? It's that thinking that makes me favor Mizuno as I think of it as a quality forging from a major OEM.

 

 

Well, Every OEM small or big have their own thing to try to prove their products is more superior than others. I wouldn't get my self into that kind of very subjective discussion.

 

What I can only say is that, us as a consumer should be smarter on doing our homework. One of them are reading through golfwrx type of forum. Of course we still need to be smart also on looking who and who, what and how, etc to make sure we are not ignorant and drink the kool aid to easily. :)

 

Choosing an iron set are not that hard if you know what you are doing. Key issue is bounce angle and trajectory are good for your swing and style of play which can be achieve from the right shaft choice and tweaking a bit here and there. Look is subjective to individual taste.

 

However... we can always build a perfect club from 5-10 different heads, specs and set up...but yet at the end come down to feel to play it more consistently on good and bad days. If you come and get fitted with me, you'll understand how i do things. I'm not a member of NATO ( No Action Talk Only) LMAO! :D

 

Cheers!

 

joe

[TheCheat]

Just for the Hell of it...

 

Compare this to how the majority of other clubs are made.

 

http://www.eponforged.com/technology?symfo...3e1b0aeac7fc88e

 

and

 

Epon Skunk Works:

The Skunk Works team is a group of specialized individuals given the task of working on advanced or secret projects, performing miracles, and forging the next generation golf technology today.

 

In a secret location somewhere in Japan, this team of Epon experts, designs tomorrow's clubs with the utmost care and attention to detail while remaining under the radar. The goal is to maintain the ultimate balance of performance along with next generation manufacturing techniques, creating a future without limits.

 

Looking at your response and sig, only one thing comes to mind

 

 

 

 

Knowing how big ENDO factory is.

Knowing how big the OEM order is & market is.

Having visited the plan in Thailand with local connected friends.

 

Looking at the pictures, what Endo do to EPON or any OEM products will have no differences, except the head design. However, lots of these manufacturer's design got bought out to be use for other brands. Sooner or Later!

 

http://www.endo-mfg.co.jp/en/contents/outline/index.html

 

YES, Maybe Endo is one of the largest forging subcontractor in Japan for now due to the amount of contract they have and Japanese worker are well known for their work ethics to produce the best they can be. We might not want to forget that there are tons of damn good forging Companies out there in Japan, especially around Himeji area whom might have the same quality of result and might be better due to smaller scale for better management and better interaction to their clients. I won't be surprise!!!

 

At the end... money can buy us a golf club, but it won't buy us a game golf that shows in our score card. The time we spend on the course with friends and buying clubs that makes you happy are PRICELESS!

 

You hit the nail on the head with that last sentence.

[SwingMan]

Don't you wonder why the Callaway "Tour Authentic" wedges retail at £150 and the Irons at £1100. And where are they forged......oh yeah, Japan. So as to your question about Tour Pros - well there's your answer!

Japan has been known for centuries for quality metalworks. Although I don't doubt the quality of the forgings, the question I do have is the quality of the head design. Specifically how can these companies compete with the likes of the big OEMs in testing head design and performance?

 

If you want technology in irons, see Epon.

 

For the hell of it, what technology does Epon have that's different from what other OEM's are currently using?

 

I only saw your response last night -- I need to clarify. The poster was referring to the design of clubs coming from Japanese metalworks, implying they might not compete with the designs and testings of large OEMs.

 

My point was that Japanese do have current technology in their irons and other clubs that does compete with large OEMs. Some people point to Miura and say, "That's a well-made iron, but where is the technology?" I might look at the recent Nike VR Series and point to the Miura as a comparison, and ask "Where is the technology in VR Irons?" The design look like an inexpensive Miura. And the physical look would be the only things they'd have somewhat in similarity.

 

As to more innovative designs, I cited EPON as an example. They use similar technology as large OEMs -- the 501 irons are notched in the low to mid irons and go cavity in the short irons, the 701 irons are all notch with tungsten weighting and forged except for the face -- which is "As-Roll" Stainless -- an ultra thin stainless face. Epon is only one example of JDM manufacturers with technology as advanced as large OEMs. My opinion is that JDMs tend to execute design with higher quality and more consistent manufacturing methods.

[yoonie]

you gotta understand that the asian golf market (korea/japan) is very high end since golf is very expensive. An exaggerated (and admittedly inaccurate) analogy would be the way african countries view the american auto market. Who would pay a 20k premium to go from a civic to a 3 series when the major differences are animal skins and a satisfying door thud? A market where the average disposable income is much higher (the japanese GOLF market compared to the us golf market, not overall)

[shuttle1]

Why do people send their Irons to Joe Kwok?

 

To make them the best they can be.

 

If everyone bought Epons Joe would be out of business because you can't improve them enough to make a noticeable difference because of the quality of the clubs and the build tolerances. Send him your Titleist, Callaway, Taylormade and most other USDM clubs and their's a lot of work to be done to make them the best that they can be.

 

Does spending a bunch of money having Joe, or any other quality club builder, fine tune your clubs make you a better golfer? If it doesn't, why do we?

 

Their is know doubt in my mind that lessons and practice are what make you a better golfer. Which is why I practice or play almost every day. I love this game. It's what I do day in and day out. I love having the very best equipment in my hand. I love to experiment. I love having conversation with people that aren't ignorant and closed minded. I love having a set of clubs that are made to exacting standards like Joe and other club builders offer. If it doesn't matter to you or you don't care, who cares?

 

JDM Golf Eq. manufactures, as a general rule of thumb, build higher quality gear than most others. It has been proven time and time again. I'll be surprised if Joe argues with that as he has already said that in a previous post.

 

Quoting Joe from post #49 "At the end... money can buy us a golf club, but it won't buy us a game golf that shows in our score card."

 

So I'll ask again, if that is true why do we spend a ton of money trying to improve the clubs in our bag we play with?

 

Okay... headed to the Golf Course to have a great time doing what I love.

[joey3108]

What i do everyday is not about EPON or golfsmith or mumbo jumbo brand.

 

What i do is to make them fit better to the players, it has nothing to do with the quality of how these manufacturer made their products. So mixing up this topic with my name or any other clubmakers is kind of off topic IMO.

 

To me it won't matter what my customers play and how much they want to spend their money to get them as long as they enjoy the game. I might also want to comment that "not everyone has to spend a ton to improve".

 

"One man junk, may not be the case to the other man".

[xxio]

You can buy Miura heads only at TSG??? I need to look in that proshop more.