miura,vega epon just too exspensive?

[esinger430]

spot on joe!!! (cool)

[joey3108]

You can buy Miura heads only at TSG??? I need to look in that proshop more.

J,

 

Not suppose to and they are not even suppose to be in the US market for Japan Issue version.

 

I'm not to sure if Mr Miura would like to hear that if that is true. :) But yet, who knows what people do in this kind of economy to bend any rules. I've talked about Japan issue version, I might be able to get some if the people interest is enough to make them worth all the trouble to bring them in.

 

But definitely not head only sale!

 

Joe

[SwingMan]

Where do I find this "mumbo jumbo" brand?

 

Sounds like a SGI Club.

[joey3108]

Where do I find this "mumo jumbo" brand?

 

Sounds like a SGI Club.

 

Jerry,

It's mumbo jumbo...I'm sure a lot of member can tell what that meant.

[SwingMan]

Where do I find this "mumo jumbo" brand?

 

Sounds like a SGI Club.

 

Jerry,

It's mumbo jumbo...I'm sure a lot of member can tell what that meant.

 

Sorry, Joe. I was laughing too hard at the mumbo jumbo reference. By the way, you ought to make a "Mumbo Jumbo" club in honor of that post.

[joey3108]

Where do I find this "mumo jumbo" brand?

 

Sounds like a SGI Club.

 

Jerry,

It's mumbo jumbo...I'm sure a lot of member can tell what that meant.

 

Sorry, Joe. I was laughing too hard at the mumbo jumbo reference. By the way, you ought to make a "Mumbo Jumbo" club in honor of that post.

Maybe you'll buy a MUMBO JUMBO kool aid if Endo forged and design it, right? ;)

[xxio]

You can buy Miura heads only at TSG??? I need to look in that proshop more.

J,

 

Not suppose to and they are not even suppose to be in the US market for Japan Issue version.

 

I'm not to sure if Mr Miura would like to hear that if that is true. :) But yet, who knows what people do in this kind of economy to bend any rules. I've talked about Japan issue version, I might be able to get some if the people interest is enough to make them worth all the trouble to bring them in.

 

But definitely not head only sale!

 

Joe

 

 

Joe,

 

I remember way back when GEA and GO were still the big dogs on the Net, you could order from Miura direct- heads only. I was even banned from BombSquad because I let that info out when they were still mostly a JDM -before "Tour" hit it big- board.

 

Ater 5-6 months you could no longer buy heads only and Miura now had international distributors and higher prices, such is the price of fame I guess.

 

I had thought maybe Mr. Miura had allowed that direct selling again. Maybe someone needs to give TSG a heads up that they may be selling unauthorized Miura heads.

[SwingMan]

Where do I find this "mumo jumbo" brand?

 

Sounds like a SGI Club.

 

Jerry,

It's mumbo jumbo...I'm sure a lot of member can tell what that meant.

 

Sorry, Joe. I was laughing too hard at the mumbo jumbo reference. By the way, you ought to make a "Mumbo Jumbo" club in honor of that post.

Maybe you'll buy a MUMBO JUMBO kool aid if Endo forged and design it, right? ;)

 

Endo, Miura, Vega, Ping, TM, Nike --

 

The good stuff abounds.

 

My fascination with JDM was rejuvenated because a guy down the street has some goodies and let's me demo them.

 

:-)

 

They are very impressive.

 

Even tried the Kanata (Scandium) Shaft. I didn't think it was a big deal until I hit a club with that shaft in it. Impressively expensive.

[joey3108]

You can buy Miura heads only at TSG??? I need to look in that proshop more.

J,

 

Not suppose to and they are not even suppose to be in the US market for Japan Issue version.

 

I'm not to sure if Mr Miura would like to hear that if that is true. :) But yet, who knows what people do in this kind of economy to bend any rules. I've talked about Japan issue version, I might be able to get some if the people interest is enough to make them worth all the trouble to bring them in.

 

But definitely not head only sale!

 

Joe

 

 

Joe,

 

I remember way back when GEA and GO were still the big dogs on the Net, you could order from Miura direct- heads only. I was even banned from BombSquad because I let that info out when they were still mostly a JDM -before "Tour" hit it big- board.

 

Ater 5-6 months you could no longer buy heads only and Miura now had international distributors and higher prices, such is the price of fame I guess.

 

I had thought maybe Mr. Miura had allowed that direct selling again. Maybe someone needs to give TSG a heads up that they may be selling unauthorized Miura heads.

I hear ya bro!

 

I can only say...that was a looooooong time ago. Just realize we were one of those pioneer on golf discussion forum. I'm sure you still remember who brought/discussed Miura name all the time, at least big portion of the contribution. :) Remember Ray Floyd edition ? I'm almost sure that Ramon (Willy's Bro in law) still have them in his garage. I sold quite a lot of them back then. 3 edition of blade, split cavity and full cavity, remember those?

 

BTW, How are you guys doing back home? Willy boys is still hoing strong? Every winter reminds me the weather back home lately :) I'm jealous! :(

[herrsonic]

I can add that my game has improved with proper fitting, but my swing has changed or rather evolved and fitting is rarely static. When I talk about fitting, I don't just mean adjusting loft and lie and making sure that I'm using the right size grip or club length. A good fitter can make some adjustments to equipment to correct some player's deficiencies. Just read Tom Wishon's book. A good fitter can also recommend certain equipment to a player such as the type of shaft to use in a driver. But to get to the point, golf is a game of feel, and all the JDM stuff just plain has better feel. Does feel translate to a better score? I'd like to say yes, but that's just my opinion. It certainly translate to me enjoying the game of golf more. I think most people don't want to play rented clubs as opposed to their own. Therefore, is it worth that much more $$. Well, that's a personal decision and depends on how much one is willing to pay for a hobby. I don't live too far from Pebble beach, and it costs $500 to play a round of golf there. I can also play at the muni for about $50. How much does a set of clubs cost?

[JD3]

Joe -- what are thoughts on my concern that the major OEMs (Titleist, Ping, TM, Callaway, Nike, Mizuno, Cleveland etc etc) have much better testing equipment for new head designs. And that by using a smallish company like Scratch you may get a better forging but it doesn't compensate for a less well designed head? It's that thinking that makes me favor Mizuno as I think of it as a quality forging from a major OEM.

 

 

[/quoteWell, Every OEM small or big have their own thing to try to prove their products is more superior than others. I wouldn't get my self into that kind of very subjective discussion.

 

What I can only say is that, us as a consumer should be smarter on doing our homework. One of them are reading through golfwrx type of forum. Of course we still need to be smart also on looking who and who, what and how, etc to make sure we are not ignorant and drink the kool aid to easily. :)

 

Choosing an iron set are not that hard if you know what you are doing. Key issue is bounce angle and trajectory are good for your swing and style of play which can be achieve from the right shaft choice and tweaking a bit here and there. Look is subjective to individual taste.

 

However... we can always build a perfect club from 5-10 different heads, specs and set up...but yet at the end come down to feel to play it more consistently on good and bad days. If you come and get fitted with me, you'll understand how i do things. I'm not a member of NATO ( No Action Talk Only) LMAO! :D

 

Cheers!

 

joe

That all makes sense. And now biggest and really only complaint with JDMs are lack of left handed alternatives. I go to Asia a lot and I know the lefties over there are even fewer than here (obviously no hockey there :scare2:), but still the dearth of product is abysmal. My hunch is I'd be gaming the Scratch AR1's if they came in LH. They don't, along with >90% of all JDM iron sets. I mean seriously, after someone has the mold, how freaking difficult is it to flip it over and make it lefty?

[Duffy19]

Most, if not all JDM, make left handed clubs including Honma. The retail stores might not carry them in stock but they are certainly available. Even the premium line such as Tourstage 901 wood and irons and all model of Epon comes in left handed. You just have to know where to look.

[JD3]

Most, if not all JDM, make left handed clubs including Honma. The retail stores might not carry them in stock but they are certainly available. Even the premium line such as Tourstage 901 wood and irons and all model of Epon comes in left handed. You just have to know where to look.

Believe me I've looked. And looked. And looked. And although there are some models, they're usually the most "game improvement" model they have (not exactly what I want.) When I'm in a golf shop in Asia and I say "nice forged blades you got there. how long do I have to wait if I order them in lefty?" The response I invariably get is

 

I do know the 2 I like the most -- Scratch AR1 and KZG Evolution Tour are not offered Left Handed. Heck, even Mizuno doesn't offer their MP67s in left handed.

 

If I sound bitter it's because I am.

[GolfHound]

Japanese brands usually OEM for the American brands. Tour pros will use Japanese forgings and stamp their sponsors' brands on the clubs. Tiger Woods, back in his Titleist days used Miura forged irons with a Titleist stamp on it.

 

The Japanese manufacturers probably think that spending money on improving their technology and craftsmanship is a much better investment than sponsoring players (which is a big reason for players to use mainstream branded clubs).

 

I'm using Miura tourney blades and absolutely love the feel. I shelled out almost a grand but it's worth every penny!

 

BTW - Vega, Yururi and Ikasu all come from Kyoei Golf

[CarloGolfer]

This discussion reminds me of my business, which is construction. Tools for construction are available at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc, and they're also available through professional supply houses. The tools at the professional supply houses are definitely better than those at Lowe's or Home Depot. However, in the right hands a good carpenter can produce exceptional work with any set of tools. Hence the expression, "a good carpenter never blames his tools." Conversely, a layman will not be able to produce good work regardless of the equipment he owns.

 

 

The guy who does my trim carpentry had been using the same miter saw for 10-15 years until it quit on him and he was forced to buy a new one. He could have gotten the saw with the laser and thd digital read, but it wouldn't have helped him cut any better, it would have just been more expensive.

 

Ultimately, the pricing is inconsequential. It's all a matter of ablity. One club is not necessarily better than the other.

[shuttle1]

One club is not necessarily better than the other.

 

There will be people go both ways on this. But, IMO you are wrong.

 

Some clubs are absolutely better than others.

[herrsonic]

This discussion reminds me of my business, which is construction. Tools for construction are available at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc, and they're also available through professional supply houses. The tools at the professional supply houses are definitely better than those at Lowe's or Home Depot. However, in the right hands a good carpenter can produce exceptional work with any set of tools. Hence the expression, "a good carpenter never blames his tools." Conversely, a layman will not be able to produce good work regardless of the equipment he owns.

 

 

The guy who does my trim carpentry had been using the same miter saw for 10-15 years until it quit on him and he was forced to buy a new one. He could have gotten the saw with the laser and thd digital read, but it wouldn't have helped him cut any better, it would have just been more expensive.

 

Ultimately, the pricing is inconsequential. It's all a matter of ablity. One club is not necessarily better than the other.

 

You said yourself, "The tools at the professional supply houses are definitely better than those at Lowe's or Home Depot." I agree that the tools can only do so much, and it is the ability of the user. However, which tools would he rather use if he can afford it? Which one would he appreciate more or possibly save him time? The one at the professional supply house that is more precise like the saw with the laser and digital read or your basic saw at Home Depot? Which one would he enjoy more? I think one can get to a certain level of golf even as an amateur that one can appreciate well made clubs of which JDM equipment are. I think it is hard to dispute that the finish, materials, tight tolerances, and feel of certain equipment is better. It's like comparing a suit made of fine materials, quality stitching and tight lines with an off-the-rack suit at the Men's Warehouse. I guess one can argue that they're both suits, and they both serve the same function. Or better yet comparing a swiss watch with one made in China. But you can't deny the differences in craftsmanship.

[CarloGolfer]

You said yourself, "The tools at the professional supply houses are definitely better than those at Lowe's or Home Depot." I agree that the tools can only do so much, and it is the ability of the user. However, which tools would he rather use if he can afford it? Which one would he appreciate more or possibly save him time? The one at the professional supply house that is more precise like the saw with the laser and digital read or your basic saw at Home Depot? Which one would he enjoy more?

 

I agree. That's sort of my point. If you want the high-end stuff, it's available. If you think it can help your game, go for it. However, if you are confident enough in your ability, the cleveland 588 (originals) is just as good as the ______(insert high-end wedge).

 

I think one can get to a certain level of golf even as an amateur that one can appreciate well made clubs of which JDM equipment are. I think it is hard to dispute that the finish, materials, tight tolerances, and feel of certain equipment is better.

 

It's not that hard to dispute. It's the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" idea. I can't comment on tolerances. Besides, it's always worth a trip to a quality club-fitter to make sure your specs are what they should be.

 

It's like comparing a suit made of fine materials, quality stitching and tight lines with an off-the-rack suit at the Men's Warehouse. I guess one can argue that they're both suits, and they both serve the same function. Or better yet comparing a swiss watch with one made in China. But you can't deny the differences in craftsmanship.

 

It depends on which manufacturers your talking about.

 

If you're comparing Vega/Epon/Miura to the Michael Jordan Special set at Kmart, then that's like comparing Armani to Dillard's House Brand "Murano." If you're comparing Vega/Epon/Miura to Titleist/Ping/Taylor Made, then that's like comparing Armani to Hugo Boss. It's presonal preference.

[ttank2610]

andy,

 

i was a titleist die-hard up to September last year, but bought a set of miura cb201's, which totally blew me away. then i bought the miura raw wedges and recently got custom fitted for an epon af-101 driver.

 

my friends ask me the difference between Japanese premium forged v titleist/ping/taylormade, and the best comparison i can make is, titleist/ping/taylormade is the BMW or Merc's, Japanese forged clubs are the aston martin/ferrari's, you got try out and experience for yourself.

 

yeah, they can be expensive, but if you keep your eye on ebay, there are deals to be had!! i know of one guy of bought a set of miura cb202's and 2 chikara wedges for £550, brand new approx £1800 - £2000.

 

also what you are paying for is the quality of club set-up for you and you only. what i mean is when you choose your shafts, these will be pured/spined to your spec, not like picking a set from a shelf which have not had this.

 

if you do venture into buying some japanese forged clubs, i would recommend Allan Talyor at Pure Forged Golf, web address below.

 

www.pureforged.co.uk

[JD3]

andy,

 

i was a titleist die-hard up to September last year, but bought a set of miura cb201's, which totally blew me away. then i bought the miura raw wedges and recently got custom fitted for an epon af-101 driver.

 

my friends ask me the difference between Japanese premium forged v titleist/ping/taylormade, and the best comparison i can make is, titleist/ping/taylormade is the BMW or Merc's, Japanese forged clubs are the aston martin/ferrari's, you got try out and experience for yourself.

 

yeah, they can be expensive, but if you keep your eye on ebay, there are deals to be had!! i know of one guy of bought a set of miura cb202's and 2 chikara wedges for £550, brand new approx £1800 - £2000.

 

also what you are paying for is the quality of club set-up for you and you only. what i mean is when you choose your shafts, these will be pured/spined to your spec, not like picking a set from a shelf which have not had this.

 

if you do venture into buying some japanese forged clubs, i would recommend Allan Talyor at Pure Forged Golf, web address below.

 

www.pureforged.co.uk

Don't forget, Titleist forgings are the hardest out there ... so much so they felt harder than cast to me. So that comparison is skewed.

[jamiejamster]

I agree with what ttank2610 (good friend of mine) has to say you have got to try the high end forged equipment and ALLAN TAYLOR is the man from PUREFORGED.CO.UK

[shuttle1]

Don't forget, Titleist forgings are the hardest out there ... so much so they felt harder than cast to me. So that comparison is skewed.

 

But that is kind of the point. It's not skewed because that is what we're doing here, when you compare the upper end JDM equipment to Titleist and the rest, their is a difference.

[herrsonic]

I agree. That's sort of my point. If you want the high-end stuff, it's available. If you think it can help your game, go for it. However, if you are confident enough in your ability, the cleveland 588 (originals) is just as good as the ______(insert high-end wedge).

 

I do agree that it's mostly the Indian and not the arrow. I did make some unfair comparisons. But the difference in craftmanship is quite evident if not necessarily quite evident in performance. That doesn't mean that everyone prefers to play or pay for JDM. Nor should they. Also I think the market audience for Callaway/Titleist/Ping is quite different than Epon/Miura/Tourstage. No one wants to pay more than $899 for a set of Titleist, yet there are people willing to pay close to double that for Miura. That may be a matter of preference regardless of one's reason, whether it is better feel or just to own the most expensive clubs in the foursome. For myself and for some odd reason, the Miura just feels sweeter when striking the ball even though it may not make me a better player and my golf game just seems more enjoyable. Frankly, if I went back to my old set of Titleist, I probably would score the same.

[JD3]

Don't forget, Titleist forgings are the hardest out there ... so much so they felt harder than cast to me. So that comparison is skewed.

 

But that is kind of the point. It's not skewed because that is what we're doing here, when you compare the upper end JDM equipment to Titleist and the rest, their is a difference.

All I'm saying is if you take a pre-AP2 Titleist forging and compare it to a JDM forging of course it will feel a lot softer. But then many cast clubs will feel softer too!!! You'd need to the JDM iron to any number of other American companies that using softer steel in their forgings, like:

 

Nike

Hogan

Taylormade

Callaway

 

And a few others I probably forgot.

[hattrick3518]

i would love to have some miura baby blades, i think you get what you pay for, simple as that

[Toosum]

You pay for quality. Simple as that. The major OEM's only care about market share and that means that they have to move volume. Craftsmanship isn't a priority. Poxy do-nothing ("sound improving") badges slapped on a cheap chinese casting are far cheaper. When next season comes around all you have to do is make a shiny new sticker and let your marketing department off the leash. They pay big money to pros who could probably knock it around with garden tools and do ok. When they want something better, its created for them and either called a prototype or dummied up to look what they are trying to flog to the great unwashed. The forged version of the TM Tour Preferred is but one example.

 

Stepping off my soap box though, you don't have to pay that much for Japansese Forgings. For example the Bridgestone J36 irons are Endo forged (same as Epon and the Cally X-proto) and cost no more than what you'd pay for Chinese forgings from Titleist/Callaway/Cobra/TM etc. All depends on whether you want a shiny sticker and slick advertising or quality.

[JD3]

You pay for quality. Simple as that. The major OEM's only care about market share and that means that they have to move volume. Craftsmanship isn't a priority. Poxy do-nothing ("sound improving") badges slapped on a cheap chinese casting are far cheaper. When next season comes around all you have to do is make a shiny new sticker and let your marketing department off the leash. They pay big money to pros who could probably knock it around with garden tools and do ok. When they want something better, its created for them and either called a prototype or dummied up to look what they are trying to flog to the great unwashed. The forged version of the TM Tour Preferred is but one example.

 

Stepping off my soap box though, you don't have to pay that much for Japansese Forgings. For example the Bridgestone J36 irons are Endo forged (same as Epon and the Cally X-proto) and cost no more than what you'd pay for Chinese forgings from Titleist/Callaway/Cobra/TM etc. All depends on whether you want a shiny sticker and slick advertising or quality.

What do you think of Mizuno? They're a Japanese forging but also a major OEM with multiple model introductions every year.

[IdriveJR]

Believe me I've looked. And looked. And looked. And although there are some models, they're usually the most "game improvement" model they have (not exactly what I want.) When I'm in a golf shop in Asia and I say "nice forged blades you got there. how long do I have to wait if I order them in lefty?" The response I invariably get is

 

I do know the 2 I like the most -- Scratch AR1 and KZG Evolution Tour are not offered Left Handed. Heck, even Mizuno doesn't offer their MP67s in left handed.

 

If I sound bitter it's because I am.

 

Look no more!!!

 

I just got a set of Lefty Epon AF301's. At set up they look very much like a blade but they are Players Cavity Backs. Definitely NOT GI Irons. Almost the exact same size as the AFTours. I was playing Titleist 695CB's that I really liked. To me they were everything I could want in a club. Forgiving, solid and felt really good.

 

After hitting my new Epons the difference is just plain old unbelievable. I can't begin to tell you the difference in feel. If there is any way you can get your hands on one to demo you'll have an order placed as soon as you get back from the driving range.

 

I had to save up a little longer to purchase these than the ZB's I was looking at. Sure glad I did as to me they are worth every extra penny I paid for them.

[JD3]

Look no more!!!

 

I just got a set of Lefty Epon AF301's. At set up they look very much like a blade but they are Players Cavity Backs. Definitely NOT GI Irons. Almost the exact same size as the AFTours. I was playing Titleist 695CB's that I really liked. To me they were everything I could want in a club. Forgiving, solid and felt really good.

 

After hitting my new Epons the difference is just plain old unbelievable. I can't begin to tell you the difference in feel. If there is any way you can get your hands on one to demo you'll have an order placed as soon as you get back from the driving range.

 

I had to save up a little longer to purchase these than the ZB's I was looking at. Sure glad I did as to me they are worth every extra penny I paid for them.

How did you get those?

[Corgi]

I apologize in advance if this has already been brought up but I believe that a big portion of the jump in price paid for JDM type equipment is for the duty/import fees and not necessarily for the equipment itself. Import fees for U.S. bound products is typically much less than for items not made specifically for the U.S. Case in point would be Mizuno irons. You will likely pay more for Japan market Mizunos yet I don't think they are taking a loss for selling MP-67's at the same relative price point as Titleist and Taylor Made. My 2 cents.