Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[jick]

There could be truth that Tiger's actual gamer is cast and skim-milled. I did some scans of close-ups of Tiger's putter from Cameron's very own book, "The Scotty Cameron World."

 

Tiger's putter has no milling marks on the face, no "T.W." stamp, has a big ding near the sightdot in the corner of the face and topline, and the plumber's neck hosel is not straight or symmetrical (giving strength to the credence that it was actually cast.) The sightdot looks quite narrow and from the shadows around it in one photo, it looks like it was stamped and not computer engraved. The book was printed in 2006, and there is even a picture of the putter dating back to 2002.

 

The next file attached is taken from the very next page of the same book. These are commemorative putters for Tiger's major wins. Notice carefully how none of them are close to looking like Tiger's gamer. They look to have a deeper face (or maybe same depth but shorter heel-toe), and the hosel is symmetrical and perfectly straight. The sight dots are also bigger than Tiger's gamer. And from these putters, it looks like the 2000 US Open model is even milled from a different program as can be seen in the bumpers and flanges that house the bumpers.

 

If Cameron indeed did mill Tiger's putter, he would just run the computer program again when making the commemorative putters. No wonder he could never come up with a satisfactory back-up for Tiger, he couldn't even make a commemorative run that looked close to Tiger's putter.

 

Another thing to note is that nowhere in Tiger's putter do you see milling marks (not even on the face), or even residual milling marks as there supposed to be even on skim-milled putters. Perhaps Tiger requested no milling marks be visible to mimic the Anser2 more closely. Yet, in all of Cameron's commemorative putters, there are visible milling marks. Perhaps this is to add to his mystique and reputation as a builder of "fine milled putters"?

 

I do hope those collectors who paid an arm and a leg (some up to $40,000 in what I've heard) for alleged Tiger backup putters have seen close-up pics of the real thing for purposes of comparison. Those backups better look close to the real thing (stamped sight dot, no milling marks, shallower or longer heel-toe) and not just some putter off the milling machine using the same program as the commemorative putters just decorated with stampings similar to Tiger's gamer.

[jick]

The Pro Platinum is close enough that it could be shaped into a replica of Tigers. Closer than the difference between an Anser and Tigers Cameron, that's for sure.

 

 

Not close at all. Look at how the flanges and topline meet, there is a world of difference.

 

Tiger's plumber's neck hosel also looks a bit more "cast" and seems longer.

 

Tiger's putter has a shallower but longer face.

 

The bumpers towards the heel and toe side are more rounded / buffed-off to look softer on Tiger's putter.

 

The Pro Platinum will definitely never pass for Tiger's backup standards. It is so far off from being identical.

[Pure745]

In my mind, the point is how Scotty Cameron products are marketed. The OTR products are very good and the headcover designs are fun. The problem is in the message. Do Tour players putters have more value than OTR? I say so, as long as he/she actually used it. Is a 009 worth $2500? It was to me, then not to me. I decided that if there are 3000+ 009 putters, they are not that special. If I had a $40000 putter that is 1/5, it better be 1/5 and

there should be NO mistaking it. Ask yourself this. If you bought a 1/100 widget for $1500.00 and later found out it was actual 1/200 and the other guys paid $750.00 . Would you still love your widget? Maybe, but you'd be pissed you paid $1500.00.

 

I agree with that. I wouldn't pay $2500 for an 009. But you have to remember there are people out there paying $40,000 a weekend for an "escort" and $30 million for a summer house. $2500 to them is pocket change.

 

If I bought a 1/5 putter I'd be pissed if there was proof that more than that were made. Thus my example about the Enzo Ferrari. That's a car that sells for over a million dollars and they were supposed to be limited to 349 cars, but it has been documented that Ferrari made more than 400 of them.

 

Man.. Biscuit.. your examples are not only the epitome of class, but also frame great picture as to the type of "collector" that would be intersted in expensive Camerons! Scotty himself would be proud of you.. keep up the great work Biscuit my man! :drinks:

[Pure745]

In addition to all of this talk about cast and Scotty not being able to replicate his gamer in a backup, didn't Tiger himself say that his backup is a NIKE? I know there's a link on here somewhere to an interview where he says it.

[Pondy]

Wow, after reading all of he posts (13 pages, 493 posts so far), if I was a collector of the SC putters I would be seriously questioning the integrity of the whole scheme.

 

The value of a collectible is normally related to rarity and condition. And there has to be an underlying belief that the items are what they say they are.

 

The situations presented here show (to me at least) that for some styles of putter, "limited edition" can mean limited to the number that can be sold. Same is possibly to be true with certain 1/10 and 1/100 head covers.

 

I would be hugely pissed off if I owned one of the 1/5 Mini's and then discovered there may be as many as eight total. Or if I owned a 009 Limited and learned there were apparently thousands made.

 

After watching the videos and reading this post, you have to conclude that he is full of s@#$^. Some of the COA's don't even seem to stand up to scrutiny either. It just seems that every story told by the studio has been debunked outright, or otherwise shown to be not exactly true.

 

When the market as a whole loses confidence because the things designed to safeguard the investment are brought into question, the collectible's market value falls. Sometimes their value falls quickly, like when a bubble bursts (beanie babies).

 

Ultimately, the true market value of a collectible is determined by what people are willing to pay for it, on an open market. An open market means 'where the history or provenance of an item is well understood'. You have to conclude that the real story on a lot of these things was not public knowledge, before this thread.

 

If I were an SC collector, I would be pretty worried about my 'investment' after reading this thread. I'm sure the collectors are worried. But the Kool-Aid tasted so good.

[biscuity]

If Cameron indeed did mill Tiger's putter, he would just run the computer program again when making the commemorative putters. No wonder he could never come up with a satisfactory back-up for Tiger, he couldn't even make a commemorative run that looked close to Tiger's putter.

 

Using the same logic, if it was a cast putter Scotty would just pour more castings to come up with an exact back-up of Tiger's putter. I disagree that Scotty has never come up with a "satisfactory" back-up. I think Tiger already has at least one but there's never been a reason to put it in play. If he already has one he can reject as many new versions as he wants.

 

Who knows about the commemorative putters, maybe Tiger requested that they weren't exact replicas. That would make sense because the stampings and finish are completely different. There's no doubt that Scotty could have made those a lot closer to the original if he wanted to.

[biscuity]

Man.. Biscuit.. your examples are not only the epitome of class, but also frame great picture as to the type of "collector" that would be intersted in expensive Camerons! Scotty himself would be proud of you.. keep up the great work Biscuit my man! :drinks:

 

They're just examples, I certainly wasn't implying that those were Cameron collectors, I doubt many of those guys own Enzo's. It doesn't take very long watching the news to see there are some wacky people out there.... politicians, pop stars, priests, school teachers, athletes. I'm sure there are some juicy stories about the behind-the-scene exploits of the other putter manufacturers as well.

[rrkman]

Man, you can't really step away from this thread or you'll get lost. Hopefully I'm mostly caught up.

 

First off, my comment about tiger and cameron improving the anser was really just screwing around. Did he improve it....I think so but it is really up to your personal preference. I think that they would both get the job done in the hands a decent putter. The other thing that I really don't like is the copy comment. Everyone makes an anser and go ahead and say 'but he hasn't come up with a successful original design'...so what. He's come up with some well selling items like the detour and futura - though neither design is really for me.....and I understand that they haven't won on tour but is that truly the one meaningful measure? What if he paid tiger $1 million dollars to enter some off week crappy tournament and use the futura....good chance he would still win...does that now validate the design....does that all of sudden stop all these accusations that he can only copy others.....I don't think it would change anything, would it? He puts in the touring pros hands an item that they want.....usually the anser type putter. Plus, atleast for me, the anser is all that I care about....or atleast something similar. Tiger and I have probably only one thing in common, we both grew up playing an anser style putter. I've tried numerous other putters and never had success with them....and just recently returned to an anser style and could not feel more comfortable with my putting (well, that might be a lie but based on my ability, I'm probably as comfortable as I can expect) That is the style that I like and I think he has done some nice versions of it....so has some of the others.

 

I guess I'll post this and work on my final soapbox speech.....I know that you are all very excited to hear/read it.

 

BTW, Stage - are you saying that my collection sucks? Just kidding (and nevermind, his post seemed to disappear)....that is exactly my point. There are all types of collectors (in this case cameron collectors) out there. Some for the money, some for the status, some because they like the product, some because they just don't have anything better to do. In my case, I like the product....and I think there are alot of other collectors that feel this same way. I was just looking at some of the headcovers and I just like them....my opinion and my choice.

[stage1350]

..BTW, Stage - are you saying that my collection sucks? Just kidding (and nevermind, his post seemed to disappear)....that is exactly my point. There are all types of collectors (in this case cameron collectors) out there. Some for the money, some for the status, some because they like the product, some because they just don't have anything better to do. In my case, I like the product....and I think there are alot of other collectors that feel this same way. I was just looking at some of the headcovers and I just like them....my opinion and my choice.

 

I was actually saying the opposite, then I lost half the post during a spelling edit.

 

If you are gathering more than one for the purposes of collecting, then you are, by definition, a collector. The difference is that some people will be on a higher or lower level than you depending on what you are collecting. That's neither good or bad. It just is.

 

The real issue is are you proud of what you have? Do you share your pride with others? I have a modest collection of 8802 style putters from a lot of OEMs. Some would be impressed by the diversity and rarity of some pieces. Others have unique putters that totally shame what I have. But I have what I want and can afford on my budget. If someone wants to thumb their nose at it, they can suck me. My life will not be ruined if they like or don't like what I have. I could really care less as I'm proud of what I have owned and currently have.

 

When you feel compelled to keep up with the Jones' and start going beyond your budget to try and impress someone, ask yourself why you are doing this. Are you really getting enjoyment from what you have acquired? Or do you need that acceptance to boost your ego?

 

Everyone has their own level and you can always appreciate someone elses pride and joy, even if it's small potatoes to you. But to your point, if it's for status, I wish you had more self confidence that you didn't feel the need to try and boost your ego with material things. If it's because you don't have anything better to do, give to charity. But if you collect because you like the product, good for you. You should be immune to criticism because it's not going to change your opinion. You won't care about resale value and "investments" because you are about the product and not the money. Money cheapens the conversation, just like it did with this thread. Instead of talking about the unique features and relative rarity of this putter, we start talking about dollar amounts and the dick measuring contests that are involved with it.

 

I enjoy the stories presented in this thread and it's a shame that people feel the need to obfuscate and rewrite history because they have a monetary stake in keeping prices artificially inflated.

[jick]

So does anyone have pictures of an actual Tiger backup putter? Perhaps we can compare that to the actual gamer if it indeed is identical, or if it is more closely related to the replica, commemorative, or production Newport Two putters.

[jick]

I enjoy the stories presented in this thread and it's a shame that people feel the need to obfuscate and rewrite history because they have a monetary stake in keeping prices artificially inflated.

 

I totally agree with this statement. Very well said.

 

One guy really got it right, for $40,000, you can buy your own mill and mill as many Minis as you want.

 

Back to the original topic, so exactly how many Minis are really floating around?

 

Also, who really started making a "mini" Anser style? Did Byron's Dalehead 9 pre-date Cameron's Mini?

[Redman]

Cameron's real father died at a young age and the "father figure" took Scotty under his wing and showed him the ropes. Allowed him to use his mills. It was those mills that Scotty made some of the original camerons that fetch big money today. The two decide to go into partnership. The guy mortgaged his house to upgrade the equipment. Then he got screwed and never saw the partnership come to fruition when Scotty decided to go a different route. The father figure declared bankruptcy and passed away a poor man.

 

I can admire a cameron putter, I can admire his/Acushnet's marketing ability, but the guy has flat out done some mean spirited things to promote his business.

 

That is Side-B's version of the story, it would be interesting to hear Side-C's version.

 

I know nothing about this story....but hopefully (and not because I'm a Cameron putter fan) if it is true, there's a reason for why it happened. I might not agree with the reason but hopefully I find out the entire story someday.

 

Also (and this isn't addressed to anyone in particular), I've said this before and I'll say it again. Bashing, boycotting, attacking, etc....a person because of shady business practices seems a little hypocritical to me. Almost every person/company that becomes successful in the business world has to make tough decisions....and many step on a few people on the way to the top....does that make it right, no. But, for those of you that don't buy his products because you feel he did these things, I certainly hope you also only buy produce from small local farmers, don't have a computer (especially a PC with windows), don't shop at the chain DIY store and only buy from the small general store....I could go on and on but hopefully you get my point. This might not be an appropriate question for some of you (not sure if you big dollar putter spenders actually shop at a place like this) but do you shop at big retail discount chains - I'll leave the name out of it? If you want to see some hard nose, get out of my way or you'll pay decisions being made, do some research on that place....or better yet, try doing business with them. I've heard about decisions made for, and by them that would make a story about leaving your father figure behind poor look like a decent decision. Still not defending or supporting his decisions and I know this is pretty off topic but like I said....if you think he is a scumbag, don't be friends with him. If you don't buy his products because you think he is a scumbag, then please use that same logic for all your decisions. Living off the land on small farm in the wilderness probably isn't that bad...and if this truly is your beliefs, you should find that out soon enough....BTW, that land once belonged to native americans.

 

I really wish they had a little emoticon of a guy stepping off his soapbox.....seems like I would use it a lot.

 

Why are you so concerned with if people think he is a scumbag and don't buy his putters because of it? I feel like you ask for MORE and MORE information showing how bad of a person Cameron has been and when you get it you then just make some more excuses and then ask for more. Big retail stores doing business is not the same as someone sticking it to a "father figure" that taught you everything you know and mortgaged their freaking house to go in to business with you. If you are fine buying his putters no matter what he has done then that is great but, don't ask everyone that is not ok with it to go back to living in the 50's.

[rrkman]

Cameron's real father died at a young age and the "father figure" took Scotty under his wing and showed him the ropes. Allowed him to use his mills. It was those mills that Scotty made some of the original camerons that fetch big money today. The two decide to go into partnership. The guy mortgaged his house to upgrade the equipment. Then he got screwed and never saw the partnership come to fruition when Scotty decided to go a different route. The father figure declared bankruptcy and passed away a poor man.

 

I can admire a cameron putter, I can admire his/Acushnet's marketing ability, but the guy has flat out done some mean spirited things to promote his business.

 

That is Side-B's version of the story, it would be interesting to hear Side-C's version.

 

I know nothing about this story....but hopefully (and not because I'm a Cameron putter fan) if it is true, there's a reason for why it happened. I might not agree with the reason but hopefully I find out the entire story someday.

 

Also (and this isn't addressed to anyone in particular), I've said this before and I'll say it again. Bashing, boycotting, attacking, etc....a person because of shady business practices seems a little hypocritical to me. Almost every person/company that becomes successful in the business world has to make tough decisions....and many step on a few people on the way to the top....does that make it right, no. But, for those of you that don't buy his products because you feel he did these things, I certainly hope you also only buy produce from small local farmers, don't have a computer (especially a PC with windows), don't shop at the chain DIY store and only buy from the small general store....I could go on and on but hopefully you get my point. This might not be an appropriate question for some of you (not sure if you big dollar putter spenders actually shop at a place like this) but do you shop at big retail discount chains - I'll leave the name out of it? If you want to see some hard nose, get out of my way or you'll pay decisions being made, do some research on that place....or better yet, try doing business with them. I've heard about decisions made for, and by them that would make a story about leaving your father figure behind poor look like a decent decision. Still not defending or supporting his decisions and I know this is pretty off topic but like I said....if you think he is a scumbag, don't be friends with him. If you don't buy his products because you think he is a scumbag, then please use that same logic for all your decisions. Living off the land on small farm in the wilderness probably isn't that bad...and if this truly is your beliefs, you should find that out soon enough....BTW, that land once belonged to native americans.

 

I really wish they had a little emoticon of a guy stepping off his soapbox.....seems like I would use it a lot.

 

Why are you so concerned with if people think he is a scumbag and don't buy his putters because of it? I feel like you ask for MORE and MORE information showing how bad of a person Cameron has been and when you get it you then just make some more excuses and then ask for more. Big retail stores doing business is not the same as someone sticking it to a "father figure" that taught you everything you know and mortgaged their freaking house to go in to business with you. If you are fine buying his putters no matter what he has done then that is great but, don't ask everyone that is not ok with it to go back to living in the 50's.

 

Like I've said before....I just want the info to make my own decisions. If you feel that I'm making excuses for him, I'm sorry for that. Personally, I don't care if you think he is a saint or if you think he is a scumbag. I do care about what you know that makes you feel that way....that is all. But, if the reason that you don't like his products (or buy his products, etc.) is because you think he is a scumbag, I just think that is a little hypocritical. You're certainly free to feel that way....this is just my opinion. If it is that important to me to not buy products from a scumbag, then I better sure as hell do it for everything....especially things that are much more important in life than putters.

 

And for the retailers, I'm not talking about some of their business practices although many of those should convince most to not support them....I'm talking about executives screwing family members, great friends, partners out of millions and millions of dollars...and pushing them to the curb....not much different than the Cameron father figure story. But, this is just a quick story from some stranger on the internet so feel free to believe it or not....and make up your own mind about these people.

[rrkman]

So (Drum roll please)….here is my end of the weekend opinion.

 

First – the mini. Honestly, I haven’t read anything here or elsewhere that changes my opinion from what I posted earlier in this thread. Here it is.

 

I think that Scotty ordered / asked bettinardi to make / begged for (whatever)… 4 minis to give to his friends as a gift for having their first child. Were only 4 made? Were 10 made? I have no idea. Later on, Scotty’s wife asked Bettinardi for one more so that she could surprise Scotty (placed it under his pillow) about her pregnancy. Now, did Bettinardi need to make more? Were there already some around? I have no idea. But, I feel these are the 5 ‘official (according to Cameron if that is how many he feels there are)’ Cameron Minis. There might be 50, 100…I don’t know but I doubt that there are more than 10. Also, I’ve seen pics of a mini (atleast that is what I believe it is) that was used by a Japanese pro. Now, in my story, was this one of the original 4 and one of Scotty’s friends just didn’t have a child fast enough to claim it? Is it one of the additional heads that were made? Again, I have no idea but since this is my opinion I’ll go with it was one of the original 4….but, like most of this, is just a guess. I could also accept that this one is the fifth and that the pillow one isn’t counted because it is more of a personal item from his wife than a production putter that could ever make it to the public. I have no problem with that…but I’m also not in possession of one…so it really doesn’t matter to me if there are 5,6,7,20, etc. I find the baby gift and surprise under the pillow story more interesting than the there are only x many of these part.

 

The other thing that I have no answer for is ‘who came up with it’? I can believe the story that Scotty wanted 4 of them to give as baby gifts…..true or not, I can believe it. But, did Bettinardi just walk into his office one day and say – hey, look at this little putter that I made….pretty neat, right? Or did Scotty ask Bettinardi to mill him a mini anser? Or did the Japanese pro ask for one? I have no idea. I’ve also seen where I think it was Byron that made something like this as well around the same time….maybe the inspiration was from that, I don’t know. But, for me, it isn’t that hard to believe that Scotty (or anyone else) came up with the idea of a little putter as a baby gift…..heck, I could even think of that.

 

Now, as far as value and/or price of these…..is $40,000 out of the question? Probably not. I believe that he sold a ‘twisty’ for around $15,000…and to me that really isn’t that special. It is just a putter with the neck heated and then twisted. Could he do it better than most, maybe. Does it look pretty cool, to me – yes. But, if he can get $15,000 for that, he can probably get atleast twice that for something like a mini that seems even more unique to me. JMO. Do I think it is worth $40,000…certainly not to me. I still have house payment so I can’t think of anything that I’ll be spending $40,000 on in the near future unless it is a car. Hopefully, that takes care of the mini….a very interesting item.

 

 

Next topic – Bettinardi.

 

Amazingly, I don’t know that much about the guy. I’ve seen his work and heard enough testimonials that I believe he knows what he is doing. I’m sure that someday I’ll hit a few putts with one of his putters just to see what I think of it. I also think that he is at a very interesting fork in the road. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next couple years now that he and mizuno have split…..seems very similar to another putter maker, doesn’t it.

 

Now, since this is really a Cameron thread, I would like to talk about both of them together. Personally, I think that if you gave each of them a block of steel, a hand mill, and some other common putter making tools….you would end up with 2 great putters. Will one be better than the other, not really that sure? I would bet that more money would be paid for the Cameron but honestly, that doesn’t mean it is better….it just means that someone is willing to pay more for it. I don’t think anyone can argue that Cameron isn’t the bigger name of the 2. You can argue who you think is a better person, who you think is better at the mill, who is a better designer, who makes a better sandwich, etc….but more people know about Scotty Cameron than Bob Bettinardi. Again, that doesn’t mean that he is better….that is up to each individual to decide.

 

Also, I think that there are a lot of people (both on the Cameron side of this and the Anti-Cameron side of this) that think some of Cameron’s best putters came from when he was working with / using Bettinardi to mill them. Seems like some of the titleist models may have taken a little hit but it seems (to me atleast) that with the studio select line, things are getting better….just remember, this is my opinion and I’m certainly no putter expert. I can’t wait to see what he comes out with next (that isn’t some sort of high MOI spaceship thing – sorry, the Kombi just isn’t for me). But, this certainly speaks to the quality of Bettinardi’s work.

 

 

A little more on Scotty…..

 

After watching some videos, reading some info, talking to some people, etc…..I’ve come up with an opinion on his abilities. But first, I just want to say that I have no idea what he is like as a person….and honestly I don’t care what many of you think….might be different if some of the things that people hint at him doing were done to me or a friend…or if I had more concrete knowledge of it…but, I’ll take my time on this and come up with an opinion as more and more facts and experiences show up. Maybe it is a fault of mine but I’m not going to jump right to a conclusion about someone (or even a product) based on opinions from stangers on the internet, the media, haters, lovers, etc. I just think that forming an opinion about the type of person someone might be is too important to do too quickly. I’ll figure it out and come to the conclusion that some of you were right and some of you were wrong. Now, will that matter….if I have the chance to be his friend – maybe….but I doubt that I will suddenly think that his products are crap. Like it or not, he seems to make a decent product. Is it the best? Is it worth the price?...etc. Those are more decisions that each individual needs to make on their own. Some people love the the crazy space ship putters but for me, if I look down and think about Star Trek, I’m probably not going to make the putt….just not my style putter. But, that doesn’t make them bad putters….it just makes them wrong for me.

 

Now, about Scotty. Like I said earlier, I think if you gave him a block of steel and some equipment, he could come up with a nice putter…..is he the best at this, I have no idea. But, what I really think that he does well is making a client (in most cases a tour player) feel confident that he knows what he is doing….and this trickles down to the rest of us. I just think that he understands putters and putting….and even if he doesn’t, he leads you to believe that he does. And remember, this is my story and opinions…I could be completely wrong. But, he just looks like he is comfortable with what he is doing and can convince me that he knows what he is doing. Now, does he? I have no idea but the most important thing to me when putting is confidence. Somehow, whether it is because his name is on my putter, or because Tiger uses a Cameron (although nothing close to what I have), or because he can post great pga tour usage numbers, or maybe just because it is a great product that fits my stroke……the putter I have just gives me confidence…and I would guess that this is the same for many tour players….or they probably wouldn’t be using it. You can talk about the pay to play stuff but I just can’t believe a tour player would use something that they don’t think they can win with just to make a couple thousand dollars to use a putter….I mean, they might be giving up millions of dollars and a pro career if they aren’t careful. Sorry, a little tangent again. He just seems to be a great seller, marketer, talker…..with a good product….and I don’t think he could be that way if he didn’t know and understand putting and putters. And a person like that is going to be more successful than someone with a good product (even if it is a better product) but can’t sell worth a lick….right? I hope this makes sense. I have no idea what Studio B is like and I’m sure there are other places and people that know a heck of a lot about putters and putting…..but, whether it is smoke and mirrors, marketing, gadgets, whatever……I bet he can make people feel comfortable with their putting. I’m not saying that he is some sort of genius. I’m just saying that his job is to make his clients better putters and happy with what they are using. Might be his products, might be his sales ability, might be hypnosis….I have no idea but if he didn’t do this successfully, he wouldn’t be where he is today.

 

Best of luck to you all. Hopefully the putts go in whether you are using a bettinardi, a Cameron, or even an old beaten up ping.

[xxio]

Actually yes, if I get some information about a company's busniess practices that rub me the wrong way I do my best to boycott that company.

 

The thing is about Cameron is that it seems it is the individual doing all these acts, not Titleist. How I would wish these could be all put on Titlesit in the name of coporate greed. It seems it was happening way before Titleist.

 

Just like Cameron has a father anecdote so do I. My dad once told me treat everyone with the respect until they prove beyond doubt that they don't deserve it because you meet the same people on the way up as on the way down.

 

I hope when Scotty's $tar finally fade$ the people whom he left behind in his wake will not be too vengeful.

 

Just to add I think the Twisty is definitely more than $15,000. It comes with a time machine that allows someone to travel back to 1996 :)

[Pure745]

Holy wall of text..TG i stopped reading rrkman's posts a few pages back once he said he really didn't know anything about anything discussed on this thread.. yet keeps writing painfully long winded posts about needing to find the truth.. lol.

[biscuity]

Just like Cameron has a father anecdote so do I. My dad once told me treat everyone with the respect until they prove beyond doubt that they don't deserve it because you meet the same people on the way up as on the way down.

 

I hope when Scotty's $tar finally fade$ the people whom he left behind in his wake will not be too vengeful.

 

If you believe the "stories" you read on the internet. Personally, I have heard good things from people who have met Scotty. His personality comes across great to me in his videos. If he really was as bad as some of the stories make him out to be, I guarantee that the pro's would know about it and react accordingly. The tour is a small and tight community of talented professionals. Scotty appears to be popular with them. To me that carries more weight than a story from a guy on a forum.

[Redman]

I still want to hear an answer from the Cameron herd about why there is a Mini stamped 1 of 5 when he says there were fewer than 5 made. And why does he even say fewer than 5? That makes no sense at all. Just say how many were made.......surely he would know wouldn't he since he makes them, haha?

[xxio]

Just like Cameron has a father anecdote so do I. My dad once told me treat everyone with the respect until they prove beyond doubt that they don't deserve it because you meet the same people on the way up as on the way down.

 

I hope when Scotty's $tar finally fade$ the people whom he left behind in his wake will not be too vengeful.

 

If you believe the "stories" you read on the internet. Personally, I have heard good things from people who have met Scotty. His personality comes across great to me in his videos. If he really was as bad as some of the stories make him out to be, I guarantee that the pro's would know about it and react accordingly. The tour is a small and tight community of talented professionals. Scotty appears to be popular with them. To me that carries more weight than a story from a guy on a forum.

 

 

But of course SC is nice to the pros. Even SC knows that the Tour is where his bread gets buttered. If not a single SC was on tour would you think SC would be where he is?

 

So you mean you believe everything you see in those videos, including the showing of the shirt making and the putter making. Those are "stories" as well. Maybe half of the "stories" are untrue but there are enough of them to make me say " 90% of the time.......when there is smoke there is fire".

 

The true test of a person is when he is dealing with "the common man". Not a buyer, client, or a well-known tour player. I have a bad anecdote of SC from a tour player. The Tour player is a "nobody" in the grand scheme of things. Just a regular pro with a couple of Japan Tour wins, but nothing in the US or Europe. The guy was a Titleist staffer but refused to play an SC because of how SC treated him and another tour pro. Jick in a post a while back narrated the entire story if you want to do a search.

[biscuity]

Those videos are fine with me. To me it shows Scotty getting actively involved in the manufacturing process of his products, visiting his suppliers, making sure the putters and shirts are the way he wants them. I had no illusion that Scotty has a complete screen printing and CNC milling operation in his "Putter Studio". And I don't think he makes his golf bags, hats, ball markers, pivot tools, headcovers, putter covers, or stickers there either. But I'm sure that would shock some of you to find that he has those products manufactured by, horror of horrors..... OUTSIDE VENDORS!

 

The description and videos inside the Studio make it pretty clear that he built it to give him a cool place to work with his customers (mostly PGA tour pros), and it's set up with more club making equipment than he has in his garage. It doesn't look like a big place, certainly not a huge manufacturing plant.

 

There will always be negative stories for any public figure. I have a negative personal story that I could tell about Lee Trevino, and he seems like the nicest guy in the world. In the overall balance of things, what goes around comes around. Scotty Cameron has been riding a wave of success for more than a decade since he stopped using Bettinardi for milling. That speaks louder to me than stories from a disgruntled ex Cameron collector.

[wolfpackblack]

Who really made Tiger's putter???

 

It's actually forged by Miura with Scotty badging.

 

:o

 

 

 

 

 

:cheesy:

[PixlPutterman]

The reason I have been quiet is because I have been busy folding sweaters at work, haha. There is too much stuff to respond to right now and will try to do it later tonight.

 

I do have one thing to say to foregasim or should I say John Roxxxxino, or JR as he is known on other forums. If you dont like Cameron stuff thats fine with me. You have your beliefs and I have mine, lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

So, by naming John, are you giving creedance to the fact that he knows a thing or two about Camerons? Therefore, to the people that were asking him to back up his claims, aren't you giving credibility to his statements?

 

+1

 

If "foregasim" is John Roxxxxino, then he has INSTANT credibility. Very few have been as involved in the "Cameron World" as John once was, and very few had the collection of putters, grips and other accessories he had.

 

Kevin

 

Always great to hear insider information from people who were formerly involved in the "Cameron World". These type of guys are much more likely to tell the truth of what is and what has been happening over the years. The ones who are currently part of the "Cameron World" all too often have blinders on and see only one side of the story. Its much more refreshing to hear the insider information from guys who are no so bias in their views.

 

Of course those currently inside the "Cameron World" will say John is bitter and is purposely trying to make Cameron look bad. Its a no win situation on both sides. I am neither a Cameron following or hater, fortunately. But I love these debates regardless... :wave:

Wow sounds like being in the "Cameron World" is like being in a violent gang, if your lucky enough to get out alive they hunt you down and try and kill you

[PixlPutterman]

I bet $40,000 that this topic gets locked soon....

10 pages later......someone owes me 40k

[xxio]

Those videos are fine with me. To me it shows Scotty getting actively involved in the manufacturing process of his products, visiting his suppliers, making sure the putters and shirts are the way he wants them. I had no illusion that Scotty has a complete screen printing and CNC milling operation in his "Putter Studio". And I don't think he makes his golf bags, hats, ball markers, pivot tools, headcovers, putter covers, or stickers there either. But I'm sure that would shock some of you to find that he has those products manufactured by, horror of horrors..... OUTSIDE VENDORS!

 

The description and videos inside the Studio make it pretty clear that he built it to give him a cool place to work with his customers (mostly PGA tour pros), and it's set up with more club making equipment than he has in his garage. It doesn't look like a big place, certainly not a huge manufacturing plant.

 

There will always be negative stories for any public figure. I have a negative personal story that I could tell about Lee Trevino, and he seems like the nicest guy in the world. In the overall balance of things, what goes around comes around. Scotty Cameron has been riding a wave of success for more than a decade since he stopped using Bettinardi for milling. That speaks louder to me than stories from a disgruntled ex Cameron collector.

 

 

I agree he has been a success, sometimes success is not how a man is measured. VJ's former sponsor was a success for a numerous number of years. VJ has bad stories himself. My father has a racist incident he personally experienced with DLIII. Everyone will have negative stories. It is when the person and his fans accpet that he is fallible and sometimes does things that things get better.

 

There have been several controversial incidents with the studio. One from recent memory was the lefty putter that wasn't the ordered weight, owner returns it and gets a different putter back and the putter he returned and discussed to have modifications to ends up with a bigger collector and with a COA a couple of weeks later. The incident is well documented and posted on a couple of sites yet not a single "Cameron defender" came forward to say "that is wrong". Why don't the Cameron fans accept that as a fact and there was something wrong there instead of saying Cameron did something wrong? Scared you won't get to look inside CC anymore?

 

You agree people are fallible, so each time SC makes a mistake just admit it then move on to the next mistake instead of making excuses.

 

I make mistakes a lot. I apologize each time it is pointed out.

[xxio]

I bet $40,000 that this topic gets locked soon....

10 pages later......someone owes me 40k

 

 

Can he just buy you a Mini instead? I hear those are really really valuable.

[Mekeni]

IMO best frickin thread by far.... Love the diff opinions and emotions, which goes to show the passion we all have towards the game in general. I personally try to separate the artist from the person.

 

+1 with Stage's comment!

[dwboston]

Those videos are fine with me. To me it shows Scotty getting actively involved in the manufacturing process of his products, visiting his suppliers, making sure the putters and shirts are the way he wants them. I had no illusion that Scotty has a complete screen printing and CNC milling operation in his "Putter Studio". And I don't think he makes his golf bags, hats, ball markers, pivot tools, headcovers, putter covers, or stickers there either. But I'm sure that would shock some of you to find that he has those products manufactured by, horror of horrors..... OUTSIDE VENDORS!

 

The description and videos inside the Studio make it pretty clear that he built it to give him a cool place to work with his customers (mostly PGA tour pros), and it's set up with more club making equipment than he has in his garage. It doesn't look like a big place, certainly not a huge manufacturing plant.

 

There will always be negative stories for any public figure. I have a negative personal story that I could tell about Lee Trevino, and he seems like the nicest guy in the world. In the overall balance of things, what goes around comes around. Scotty Cameron has been riding a wave of success for more than a decade since he stopped using Bettinardi for milling. That speaks louder to me than stories from a disgruntled ex Cameron collector.

 

Most people are aware that many companies outsource production and don't do everything in-house. I don't think anyone has a problem with the concept. What people have a problem with is that the videos lead one to believe that the putters are made at the Studio. Call it marketing, call it whatever you want, there's something just a bit unseemly about it.

 

Maybe Cameron should change the tag line on the shaft band labels to read "Fabricated in the USA". It would cover both the manufacturing of the putters and the embellishment of history by him and his band of followers.

[biscuity]

There have been several controversial incidents with the studio. One from recent memory was the lefty putter that wasn't the ordered weight, owner returns it and gets a different putter back and the putter he returned and discussed to have modifications to ends up with a bigger collector and with a COA a couple of weeks later. The incident is well documented and posted on a couple of sites yet not a single "Cameron defender" came forward to say "that is wrong". Why don't the Cameron fans accept that as a fact and there was something wrong there instead of saying Cameron did something wrong? Scared you won't get to look inside CC anymore?

 

The problem is, you say it's "well documented" and pretty much consider it a fact. Me, I have asked to see the documentation and the only thing that was presented were photos of the putter before and after the tungsten weights were added. There are dozens of scenarios that could have caused that to happen. It looked to me like the guy bought a 350g 009 putter, weighed it and found out it was light, complained about it to the distributor, so the distributor gave him a replacement putter that met his specs. The original putter was returned to the distributor, it was their property at that point, so that distributor decided to send the putter in to the Studio to make the weight match the "350G" that was stamped on the bumper. They then obtained a new COA for the modified putter and sold their putter to someone else. Who's the loser there? The original customer received a putter in line with what he wanted. In hindsight he probably would have rather had the tungsten 009, but we don't know the details. If he was offered to pay an extra charge to have the weights added versus accepting a new putter, then his decision to accept the new putter ends his story. That's why I requested the facts about that story. Until I see the facts I'm not going to assume that it was some evil plot by Scotty himself.

[rrkman]

Holy wall of text..TG i stopped reading rrkman's posts a few pages back once he said he really didn't know anything about anything discussed on this thread.. yet keeps writing painfully long winded posts about needing to find the truth.. lol.

 

You stopped reading my post?!?!?!!?!?!? What am I going to do now that I don't have your attention? Still post? Probably....but just not on this. I was going to participate until I felt like I was getting argumentative or disgusted with how the discussion was going.....you win, I will now go away from this thread. For those of you that would like to share info about this with me, please PM me.

 

And you're right, I don't know anything about most of this stuff but I find this soap opera interesting and would like to know the story. If you don't believe me, don't like me, find my posts boring or long winded, I'm sorry. Someday maybe I can become as important as you are and be 'in the know'....then I can just jump in and out of threads like this because I would already know it all. Thanks for all of your valuable input on this subject.

 

I guess I should be like most of the people and take the following route. I just saw that "insert putter maker name here" said something bad about my friend's sister's neighbor's dog's vet. He is scum and I will now join "insert putter forum name here" and never go to "insert putter forum name here" because of it. Seems like a lot of people on both sides are doing just that. Or, I could avoid being a moron and actually try to find out what the truth is. Maybe everything bad that has ever been said about the guy is true, great. I'll be happy to find out the truth.

 

Like I said, for anyone that ever wants to share their info or talk about some of these things, please PM me. From what I hear, the truth will set you free.

[Jesperday]

Holy wall of text..TG i stopped reading rrkman's posts a few pages back once he said he really didn't know anything about anything discussed on this thread.. yet keeps writing painfully long winded posts about needing to find the truth.. lol.

 

You stopped reading my post?!?!?!!?!?!? What am I going to do now that I don't have your attention? Still post? Probably....but just not on this. I was going to participate until I felt like I was getting argumentative or disgusted with how the discussion was going.....you win, I will now go away from this thread. For those of you that would like to share info about this with me, please PM me.

 

And you're right, I don't know anything about most of this stuff but I find this soap opera interesting and would like to know the story. If you don't believe me, don't like me, find my posts boring or long winded, I'm sorry. Someday maybe I can become as important as you are and be 'in the know'....then I can just jump in and out of threads like this because I would already know it all. Thanks for all of your valuable input on this subject.

 

I guess I should be like most of the people and take the following route. I just saw that "insert putter maker name here" said something bad about my friend's sister's neighbor's dog's vet. He is scum and I will now join "insert putter forum name here" and never go to "insert putter forum name here" because of it. Seems like a lot of people on both sides are doing just that. Or, I could avoid being a moron and actually try to find out what the truth is. Maybe everything bad that has ever been said about the guy is true, great. I'll be happy to find out the truth.

 

Like I said, for anyone that ever wants to share their info or talk about some of these things, please PM me. From what I hear, the truth will set you free.

 

With all due respect. I'm not sure these guys are trying to appease you personally. I think the idea is posting the information and let us form our own opinion. I think in your case, you've already formed yours and unless these guys actually zap you back in time to these events that took place for you to see with your own eyes you'll continue to have the same opinion.

 

I think whats great about these posts (right, wrong, or different) are that they actually make you think. Some people may think "that adds up", some may think "complete b.s." but I'm glad they are out there.

 

Unfortunately, your continual posts for the "Exact" Truth isn't going to happen unless you put Scotty and Bob in the same room to take a lie detector test. Oh... how i would pay to see it though. :D