Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[hodges]

[quote name='Redman' post='1840247' date='Jul 24 2009, 01:30 AM'][quote name='bunana3' post='1840133' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:47 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1838912' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:54 AM']Why do you think ProV1's and other premium golf balls are 3 times the cost of other good golf balls? Built in future costs of litigation and settlement payments.[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense at all, you are comparing apples to oranges. If we are suppose to follow your logic here, Nike, Taylormade, Bridgestone and Callaway all have litigation costs built into them as well. Comparing the pro V costs to the cost of "good" balls is a bit of a stretch.

I have been following this thread off and on for some while now and You [b]have been making some pretty strong accusations with very little proof [/b]and it seems that you really have a real axe to grind with Cameron like he ran over your dog or something.

To come clean, I have a few cameron putters as well as many putters from other manufacturers and i game all of it, I do not care how many mini's were actually produced nor do I care who created the first or who actually milled it. I do not collect equipment to make money off of it, nor do I have a problem with people who do.

And to be honest, I find it very funny that this thread is now 30 pages of bashing and conspiracy theories, when all the original poster wanted to do was show the size of the mini compared to a standard newport (does this picture look familiar?):
[/quote]

Very little proof huh? Foregasim has done nothing but supply proof, proof, and more proof. What else do you want from him as proof.....a signed letter from Scotty saying all Foregasim's information is correct? The only ones who have not supplied realistic sufficient proof is the Cameron side of things.
[/quote]

JR supplied for his proof that there were 8 mini putters a partial quote from Jim Butler. He took it out of context to read it to mean there were 8 putters because there were 8 putterheads made. He finally admitted 25 or 26 pages later that a putterhead is not a putter. That is when he changed his attack to be about Scottys business practices since he was wrong in attacking Nick's post about how many Mini putters there are.
(If Cameron collectors are Kool-aid drinkers what do we call the people that blindly beleive everything that JR writes?)
JR has rarely supplied facts, he supplies rumors and secondhand stories. He cuts and pastes from previous post to provide proof.
Where are his facts when I asked him about his crazy story about Cameron returning heads to Bettinardi that wern't made by Bettinardi?
He posts accusations that I was bashing him, I asked for examples, silence.
I ask if Foregasim was really JR and he can't even supply those facts.

Why do you think that JR asked for all his posts to be removed from TCC? Was he posting lies back then when all his stories were about how great it was to be a Cameron collector. If it wasn't good and he is that easily led a stray, how do we know he hasn't been led a stray again.
Just some thoughts

[stage1350]

[quote name='scottym' post='1840235' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1840135' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:52 PM']I've never seen anyone with forgism's level of hatred, so it's hard to say what would happen if that kind of hatred was introduced into the Byron threads.[/quote]

Unfortunately, Foregasm (JR) turns every Cameron thread into a personal vandetta that always ends in him calling those who disagree "liars".

Who cares whether there are 5, 6 or eight Minis. IT DOESN'T EFFECT THE RARITY.

And if Bob Bettinardi kept a souvenir for himself without Scotty knowing, then according to him Scotty is the liar.

= Foregasm
[/quote]

Hey Greg. Looks like you have a friend. New guy with 2 posts both attacking Foregasim.

So we're back to the old Finkle-Einhorn argument with whether Foregasim is JR again?

[BandonOrBust]

[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1840196' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:32 PM'][quote name='jick' post='1840177' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:21 PM']Using Cameron's frame of thought, he "improved" on the HOG with his Newport Detour by using a curved line and plumber's neck and stainless steel. Cameron's idea is that every time he releases a putter with a "borrowed design", his version is always the "improved" version.[/quote]



While I am not particularly fond of this design, or that of the Detour I think it deserves pointing out that for many (myself included) the Cameron versions/copies are in fact better-looking than the original.

I have an old Zebra putter and it was never that appealing to me, but I do like the Red X2.

Until the recent release of the Ping Redwood series, I also think that the Cameron versions/copies of the Anser model are better.

Not that I am a big fan of any of these models, but I think that most people would agree that for the most part when Cameron makes a putter that comes from a previous design, he makes it better-looking.

Just keeping it objective.

Tim
[/quote]



I think this is a hard one because perceived "beauty" or whatever you want to call it is going to be different for everyone. You could sit 10 unbiased people in a room and ask "which do you like better, The Hog Series or The Newport Detour?" You could easily get a 5/5 split. Same for "do you like TP Mills putters or The Circa 62 Series?" Same for "do you like the Craz-e or the Kombi?" I think if you're really trying to keep it objective, you have to use criteria that are not so subjective.

[Redman]

[quote name='hodges' post='1840379' date='Jul 24 2009, 06:33 AM'][quote name='Redman' post='1840247' date='Jul 24 2009, 01:30 AM'][quote name='bunana3' post='1840133' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:47 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1838912' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:54 AM']Why do you think ProV1's and other premium golf balls are 3 times the cost of other good golf balls? Built in future costs of litigation and settlement payments.[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense at all, you are comparing apples to oranges. If we are suppose to follow your logic here, Nike, Taylormade, Bridgestone and Callaway all have litigation costs built into them as well. Comparing the pro V costs to the cost of "good" balls is a bit of a stretch.

I have been following this thread off and on for some while now and You [b]have been making some pretty strong accusations with very little proof [/b]and it seems that you really have a real axe to grind with Cameron like he ran over your dog or something.

To come clean, I have a few cameron putters as well as many putters from other manufacturers and i game all of it, I do not care how many mini's were actually produced nor do I care who created the first or who actually milled it. I do not collect equipment to make money off of it, nor do I have a problem with people who do.

And to be honest, I find it very funny that this thread is now 30 pages of bashing and conspiracy theories, when all the original poster wanted to do was show the size of the mini compared to a standard newport (does this picture look familiar?):
[/quote]

Very little proof huh? Foregasim has done nothing but supply proof, proof, and more proof. What else do you want from him as proof.....a signed letter from Scotty saying all Foregasim's information is correct? The only ones who have not supplied realistic sufficient proof is the Cameron side of things.
[/quote]

JR supplied for his proof that there were 8 mini putters a partial quote from Jim Butler. He took it out of context to read it to mean there were 8 putters because there were 8 putterheads made. He finally admitted 25 or 26 pages later that a putterhead is not a putter. That is when he changed his attack to be about Scottys business practices since he was wrong in attacking Nick's post about how many Mini putters there are.
(If Cameron collectors are Kool-aid drinkers what do we call the people that blindly beleive everything that JR writes?)
JR has rarely supplied facts, he supplies rumors and secondhand stories. He cuts and pastes from previous post to provide proof.
Where are his facts when I asked him about his crazy story about Cameron returning heads to Bettinardi that wern't made by Bettinardi?
He posts accusations that I was bashing him, I asked for examples, silence.
I ask if Foregasim was really JR and he can't even supply those facts.

Why do you think that JR asked for all his posts to be removed from TCC? Was he posting lies back then when all his stories were about how great it was to be a Cameron collector. If it wasn't good and he is that easily led a stray, how do we know he hasn't been led a stray again.
Just some thoughts
[/quote]

Well as I said before what do you want from him......signed letter from Scotty or maybe a video confession? Obviously Foregasim is going and getting information from other sources along with his experiences and putting it together for his argument.....similar to....you know......an attorney. I haven't seen ANY kind of proof from TCC side other than calling him JR, saying he is an ex disgruntled collector, and telling everyone they are haters and jealous. I like you would really like to know if Foregasim is JR because if he is I think it adds even that much more credibility to what has been said here. And because he finally agreed that a putter head is not the definition of a putter by the USGA does not mean he has changed his "attack" about the number of minis.

Why do you think JR and lots of other high end collectors asked for their posts to be removed from TCC? This is one thing that hasn't been discussed much. What happened that was so bad that you had several high end well known Cameron Collectors sell their collections and jump ship very very unhappy? It certainly doesn't seem like it was just one or two that had a falling out with Cameron or TCC, but a significant number discovered something that just wasn't right. Can you elaborate on what you know of this?

And Scotty M......where the he!! did you come from to start off your first two posts blasting people?

[biscuity]

[quote name='Redman' post='1840475' date='Jul 24 2009, 05:45 AM']Well as I said before what do you want from him......signed letter from Scotty or maybe a video confession?[/quote]

When he calls the original post "Complete BS" we expect him to follow it up with proof that more than 5 Classic Minis exist. Show us photos of more than 5. Or prove his case with an official statement from his close buddy Bob Bettinardi that more than 5 finished Classic Minis were shipped to Cameron.

A strong confrontational statement should be expected to be backed up with hard evidence, not a quote from someone who "thinks" 8 were made..... but 3 were never finished..... and maybe they were destroyed.

[jick]

[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1840196' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:32 PM'][quote name='jick' post='1840177' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:21 PM']Using Cameron's frame of thought, he "improved" on the HOG with his Newport Detour by using a curved line and plumber's neck and stainless steel. Cameron's idea is that every time he releases a putter with a "borrowed design", his version is always the "improved" version.[/quote]



While I am not particularly fond of this design, or that of the Detour I think it deserves pointing out that for many (myself included) the Cameron versions/copies are in fact better-looking than the original.

I have an old Zebra putter and it was never that appealing to me, but I do like the Red X2.

Until the recent release of the Ping Redwood series, I also think that the Cameron versions/copies of the Anser model are better.

Not that I am a big fan of any of these models, but I think that most people would agree that for the most part when Cameron makes a putter that comes from a previous design, he makes it better-looking.

Just keeping it objective.

Tim
[/quote]


How do you keep it "objective" when you are using a very "subjective" attribute which is the term "better-looking"? That is something not quantifiable and lies in the eye of the beholder.

Cameron also never claimed to make them "better-looking" but more about improving the design.

Let's take the Hog versus the Newport Detour. Let me give my purely subjective commentary:

The addition of the long bar weight and extended sightline extends the putter's MOI making it have mallet characteristics in a blade putter. Realizing this, HOG must have added some mallet attributes such as the double bend shaft. It suits the design better.

Cameron on the other hand users a plumber's neck which is really an odd fit as the extended weight and sightline lends itself better to a near-face balanced design with a double bend shaft.

The HOG also seems to have a flat topline, while Cameron has a radiused topline. I think the flat topline suits itself better for this design than the radiused topline of Cameron.

In the end, I would select the HOG over the Newport Detour because I think it is a better design. But that is just me. Your mileage may vary.

The Red X versus the Zebra is not even something wroth discussing right now. Cameron xeroxed the Odyssey Rossie with the Red X. Guess what? Up to this day, Odyssey is still the undisputed number one putter in golf while Cameron is still .. Cameron? As for the Zebra, the Caliente never had as many stripes as the Zebra but I know Cameron had some Zebra xerox copies on tour, I just forgot the name and I'm not sure if and when those will be released.

I'm just trying to add some of my subjective insight.

[goinglow72]

Holly Molly......time to send the Cameron camp running again.

RUN FORREST...RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blkdiamond]

Foregasim, personally I think you just took a very wrong turn on this thread with your last post. What proof do you have that ScottyM is Bill Vogeney?

[Redman]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840542' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:25 AM'][quote name='Redman' post='1840475' date='Jul 24 2009, 05:45 AM']Well as I said before what do you want from him......signed letter from Scotty or maybe a video confession?[/quote]

When he calls the original post "Complete BS" we expect him to follow it up with proof that more than 5 Classic Minis exist. Show us photos of more than 5. Or prove his case with an official statement from his close buddy Bob Bettinardi that more than 5 finished Classic Minis were shipped to Cameron.

A strong confrontational statement should be expected to be backed up with hard evidence, not a quote from someone who "thinks" 8 were made..... but 3 were never finished..... and maybe they were destroyed.
[/quote]

My God....how much more proof do you need than what has been supplied in this thread? A main distibutor of Cameron's stated there were 8, two heads are made from a block, 4 putters were given to friends, one was given to Scotty, and Bettinardi has one. That there is proof enough that there is at least 6 not to mention his website is blatantly false saying "fewer than five". What the he!! is fewer than five? That just screams fishy anyhow. Where is your proof that there is 5 or fewer than five? Biscuit you have supplied nothing at all in the way of proof. All you have supplied are possibilities you have pulled out of your rear. How about for once you supply some/any evidence at all. Can you do that?

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1840555' date='Jul 24 2009, 06:30 AM']I still find it really interesting that a large majority of the posters and members here who defend Cameron's honor do so by attacking other members instead of addressing the questions surrounding Cameron. Guys like Biscuit and Greg were both banned from PutterTalk because they continually attacked forum members without ever contributing any substance to the site.

So far as a result of this thread these same guys are dong the same thing. In fact to date there have been posts or I have received PM's that made reference to my wife being killed, my wife being rapped, my dog being killed, etc. I have reported these posts and PM's to the board moderators and no action is taken.

Greg and a few others insist on calling me JR and make posts asking JR questions. If you want to talk with JR then contact him via PT. If you have been banned from PT then do what you all do here, sign up with another user name and post or contact him via private channels. Asking me a question that is directed to JR will not get answered by me. I do not speak for JR and the post is the equivalent of Junk Mail and will not get answered.

Before ScottyM posted his first post he was king enough to send me a personal message regarding Scotty having sex with my wife. That was several days ago and the PM was immediately forwarded to the site managers. I see he has now decided to search the site and make pubic posts trying to discredit me. That is fine.

Greg and others are up in arms about my identity. Somehow they feel that a member that wants there identity to not play a part in their opinions makes that person untrustworthy. Greg and Nick also feel that it is completely appropriate to associate a persons name with a screen ID even though they have no proof to support that position. What is new?

Well I have come to the following conclusions (much the same as Greg and Nick did) after receiving private messages and reading the posts of two of the forums members.

ScottyM, or should I call you Bill Vogeney or the Vog as you go by on other sites. It is really inappropriate to post, publicly or privately threatening and obscene messages directed towards another member or that members family. You should know better and it reflects very badly on Cameron to have his number one supporter act in such a way. From now on I will just reply to you in your posts and PM's as Vog.

Biscuit, our southern California connection, or should I call you Rand Pallis or ArtOfPutters as you are known by. It is really a poor reflection to post and send PM's the way you do considering you are one of Cameron's 3 US Distributors and make a living selling his products. I know times are tough selling the "tour" Cameron putters that put bread on your table but do you really need to attack anyone that questions Cameron history, facts and also attack and degrade Mills, Bettinardi, Morgan, Bilings, etc. just to make a point and to build your business? From now on I will just reply to you in your posts and PM's as Rand.

Greg, thanks for pointing out the appropriate manner in which to respond to and address members who would like to keep their identity private. Is it any wonder that I would not want my true identity known when doing so would result in death threats and subject my family to the threats of attack by those that support and follow the example set by Cameron and his closest friends and associated?


PS: Many former TCC members requested that their posts be removed because at least one of the Moderators was going into the system and making edits to the posts to change what was actually posted by the original poster. Hence, anyone reading a post over there would never know that what that person posted was actually what was being shown on the site. It was not grammatical edits but edit to the content and intent of what was posted. Cameron and his followers like to write their own version of history and this includes altering the historic posts of current and former members of TCC so that they read differently than what the intent was.[/quote]

And now poor forgism is portraying himself as a victim.

Step up to the plate, are you JR or not?

The truth will set you free, right?

Show us what you're made of.

BTW, I am not Rand Pallis.

[randomhero1090]

Holy ^%!*#($*!)$*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is like a online putter soap opera! People with multiple identities, accusations abound. Talk about "who shot JR?".

Stage... Finkle-Einhorn... Nice! Hello Mr. Winkie!

[blkdiamond]

I think it is finally time to shut this thread down.

[varsityhacker]

I don't know who ScottyM or Biscuity are however, leaving obscene PM's for Foregasim is inappropriate. Apparently what he has to say is very threatening to you both. Which makes me and I am sure others ask the question why? If he is full of it then why bother, rebuke his posts provide evidence and move on. But, to threaten his wife etc. I mean really. Foregasim sorry that you are getting hateful and crude PM's. I would not want to be the man that threatened my Wife or Family..

[Redman]

[quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840568' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:38 AM']Foregasim, personally I think you just took a very wrong turn on this thread with your last post. What proof do you have that ScottyM is Bill Vogeney?[/quote]

Are you kidding about this I hope? If not.....he is simply making a mockery out of it because everyone keeps calling him JR. If you were kidding....sorry I didn't catch on.

[Redman]

[quote name='varsityhacker' post='1840621' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:59 AM']I don't know who ScottyM or Biscuity are however, leaving obscene PM's for Foregasim is inappropriate. Apparently what he has to say is very threatening to you both. Which makes me and I am sure others ask the question why? If he is full of it then why bother, rebuke his posts provide evidence and move on. But, to threaten his wife etc. I mean really. Foregasim sorry that you are getting hateful and crude PM's. I would not want to be the man that threatened my Wife or Family..[/quote]


I agree....what kind of ***** are you to send threats over PM to someone because of putters, hahaha?

[blkdiamond]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1840630' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:05 AM'][quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840611' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:57 AM']I think it is finally time to shut this thread down.[/quote]

And that is exactly why the Cameron fans post the way they do. They want an informative thread to degrade to a point where it will get shut down or even removed from view so that the general membership of a web site will be unable to read and learn the other side of the story.
[/quote]

You know I have mis-givings about Cameron, and I am interested in the truth, but this thread has gotten way off topic and the personal attacks on both sides are getting old.

I am sorry that you are getting nasty PM's, that is uncalled for and I hope that the moderators will step up and deal with those situations accordingly, but you shouldn't sink to their level by claiming that ScottyM is Vog.

Foregasim I don't know who you are, I am curious though, but I hope that you will keep it above the belt even if others are taking cheap shots.

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1840630' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:05 AM'][quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840611' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:57 AM']I think it is finally time to shut this thread down.[/quote]

And that is exactly why the Cameron fans post the way they do. They want an informative thread to degrade to a point where it will get shut down or even removed from view so that the general membership of a web site will be unable to read and learn the other side of the story.
[/quote]

There's no reason to shut the thread down. But all the conspiracy talk is starting to creep me out.

[jick]

[quote name='Redman' post='1840633' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:06 PM'][quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840568' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:38 AM']Foregasim, personally I think you just took a very wrong turn on this thread with your last post. What proof do you have that ScottyM is Bill Vogeney?[/quote]

Are you kidding about this I hope? If not.....he is simply making a mockery out of it because everyone keeps calling him JR. If you were kidding....sorry I didn't catch on.
[/quote]

+1

It is just a form of irony ... the language Foregasim in using. It is a way of proving a point, and is not meant to be taken literally.

This is not the first time Cameron's minions are trying to push their weight around. Two years ago, I started a thread called "The Fall of the Cameron Empire". After over 10,000 page views and over 10 pages worth of replies it was closed.

One of the mods sent me a PM saying that he was getting legal threats from the Cameron studio and didn't want to be on their bad side.

I am glad that two years onwards, now that the empire is truly starting to be in decline, the mods have made this thread run its course and become one of the most and fastest viewed threads in the history of golf equipment forums.

This is very informative and useful for all those who are thinking about taking the plunge to the Cameron putter world. Again, I'd like to refer to this as "The Definitive Cameron Thread."

Everything you need to know about him and his minions are here.

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='jick' post='1840650' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:14 AM'][quote name='Redman' post='1840633' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:06 PM'][quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840568' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:38 AM']Foregasim, personally I think you just took a very wrong turn on this thread with your last post. What proof do you have that ScottyM is Bill Vogeney?[/quote]

Are you kidding about this I hope? If not.....he is simply making a mockery out of it because everyone keeps calling him JR. If you were kidding....sorry I didn't catch on.
[/quote]

+1

It is just a form of irony ... the language Foregasim in using. It is a way of proving a point, and is not meant to be taken literally.

This is not the first time Cameron's minions are trying to push their weight around. Two years ago, I started a thread called "The Fall of the Cameron Empire". After over 10,000 page views and over 10 pages worth of replies it was closed.

[/quote]

Wow, read the post via your sig. Make a lot of valid points.

[RobotDoctor]

If any person leaves a PM threatening anyone or an animal, that person who made the threats is a low life scum bag. To think that we are adults here and some retort in a threatening manner is just appalling, especially when we are talking about putters. Some people should be ashamed of themselves (and I am not referring to foregasim who I feel has done nothing wrong).

That said, what are the people who make threats hiding when they have to resort to this type of behavior. Personally, I would not be surprised that the people that foregasim associated with biscuity and scottym indeed are who he said they probably were. If true, what does this say about the Cameron Collector world? I hope that biscuity and scottym are different people.

[Marlockey]

[quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840611' date='Jul 24 2009, 02:57 PM'][b]I think it is finally time to shut this thread down[/b].[/quote]

I would disagree with you there, This thread as been an eye opener for me, and very informative, i would have liked to have seen
a constructive reply and arguement from the "Cameron Camp", but alas that's all we have had is Personal attacks to anyone that speak's badly of Cameron and his product's,

I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow,

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:41 AM']I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more. You can't argue the marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron. I mean, look at the site. 1/2 page rollout for a pink spotted headcover. And you can only get it if you are a "cameron member."

But, I can't sit here and say that I don't like his putters, headcovers and pivot tools. Again, I think they carry a "cool" factor and the putter sure works for me.

But, when you start talking about paying thousands for a putter, there better be some provable substance. Just taking my OTR Newport 2 and stamping a "Circle T" on it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Sure doesn't make me want to pay $1500 for it. Or paying $150 for a headcover.... Or $150 for a pivot tool with a "Circle T" stamp on it....

Eventually you start scratching your head.

[stage1350]

[quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:41 AM'][quote name='blkdiamond' post='1840611' date='Jul 24 2009, 02:57 PM'][b]I think it is finally time to shut this thread down[/b].[/quote]

I would disagree with you there, This thread as been an eye opener for me, and very informative, i would have liked to have seen
a constructive reply and arguement from the "Cameron Camp", but alas that's all we have had is Personal attacks to anyone that speak's badly of Cameron and his product's,

[b]I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow,[/b]
[/quote]

This is the part that I find amusing. Most people that I know that collect things are trying to expand their collection. Or obtain pieces they don't have. Whether it's baseball cards like when I was a kid, spoons that my grandmother hung on her wall, or putters, it was about the experience of gaining each piece and the story or what you had to do the acquire it.

The reality is that most collections are money pits. If you are looking to "invest," golf clubs are a pretty horrible way to do it. (If you are the exception, good for you. But recognize that you are still the exception)

The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.

And now, they will attempt to do what is necessary to shut this thread down. Anything to quiet the discussion. Especially if the discussion might put a dent in their cash flow.

[tpariff]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840731' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:55 AM'][quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:41 AM']I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more. You can't argue the marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron. I mean, look at the site. 1/2 page rollout for a pink spotted headcover. And you can only get it if you are a "cameron member."

But, I can't sit here and say that I don't like his putters, headcovers and pivot tools. Again, I think they carry a "cool" factor and the putter sure works for me.

But, when you start talking about paying thousands for a putter, there better be some provable substance. Just taking my OTR Newport 2 and stamping a "Circle T" on it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Sure doesn't make me want to pay $1500 for it. Or paying $150 for a headcover.... Or $150 for a pivot tool with a "Circle T" stamp on it....

[b]Eventually you start scratching your head.[/b]
[/quote]

And I think the head scratching is starting in a big way. In recent years there have been Tour putters that were eventually made as OTR. The C-5 became the Detour. The Studio Select and Button Backs were originally Tour only and later became OTR. Same with the Kombi.

By Scotty's own admission, there is NO difference in the materials or quality of Tour and OTR versions of the same putter. It's just the engraving or hand stamping and paintfill. If you want to pay an extra $2,000 for a CT stamp, then go right ahead.

If you pay $2,400 for a Tour putter, then it comes to retail at $300, you can't help but scratch your head.

There's already people scratching their heads about the upcoming Honey Dipped series. Some thought that finish would be a tour only finish, but it looks like it's coming to retail.

Kevin

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1840695' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:38 AM']If any person leaves a PM threatening anyone or an animal, that person who made the threats is a low life scum bag. To think that we are adults here and some retort in a threatening manner is just appalling, especially when we are talking about putters. Some people should be ashamed of themselves (and I am not referring to foregasim who I feel has done nothing wrong).

That said, what are the people who make threats hiding when they have to resort to this type of behavior. Personally, I would not be surprised that the people that foregasim associated with biscuity and scottym indeed are who he said they probably were. If true, what does this say about the Cameron Collector world? I hope that biscuity and scottym are different people.[/quote]


For the record, I am not affiliated with Scotty Cameron in any way, other than I own 4 used Cameron OTR putters. I do not work in the golf industry.

I have not sent foregasim any threatening PMs about his family, wife, dog etc.

The "threat" that he claimed about his dog was in one of the posts on this thread. It read something like "what did Scotty do to make you hate him so much, run over your dog?". In my mind that's a question, not a threat. I'd bet the "threats" about his wife and family are the same kind of thing. He just wants to play the victim.

[RobotDoctor]

As Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is Good."

I think not.

[tpariff]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840741' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:04 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1840695' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:38 AM']If any person leaves a PM threatening anyone or an animal, that person who made the threats is a low life scum bag. To think that we are adults here and some retort in a threatening manner is just appalling, especially when we are talking about putters. Some people should be ashamed of themselves (and I am not referring to foregasim who I feel has done nothing wrong).

That said, what are the people who make threats hiding when they have to resort to this type of behavior. Personally, I would not be surprised that the people that foregasim associated with biscuity and scottym indeed are who he said they probably were. If true, what does this say about the Cameron Collector world? I hope that biscuity and scottym are different people.[/quote]


For the record, I am not affiliated with Scotty Cameron in any way, other than I own 4 used Cameron OTR putters. I do not work in the golf industry.

I have not sent foregasim any threatening PMs about his family, wife, dog etc.

The "threat" that he claimed about his dog was in one of the posts on this thread. It read something like "what did Scotty do to make you hate him so much, run over your dog?". In my mind that's a question, not a threat. I'd bet the "threats" about his wife and family are the same kind of thing. He just wants to play the victim.
[/quote]

So if he posts copies of the PM's will you believe him?

[Riuzzi]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1840555' date='Jul 24 2009, 03:30 PM']I still find it really interesting that a large majority of the posters and members here who defend Cameron's honor do so by attacking other members instead of addressing the questions surrounding Cameron. Guys like Biscuit and Greg were both banned from PutterTalk because they continually attacked forum members without ever contributing any substance to the site.

So far as a result of this thread these same guys are dong the same thing. [b]In fact to date there have been posts or I have received PM's that made reference to my wife being killed, my wife being rapped, my dog being killed, etc. I have reported these posts and PM's to the board moderators and no action is taken.[/b]

Greg and a few others insist on calling me JR and make posts asking JR questions. If you want to talk with JR then contact him via PT. If you have been banned from PT then do what you all do here, sign up with another user name and post or contact him via private channels. Asking me a question that is directed to JR will not get answered by me. I do not speak for JR and the post is the equivalent of Junk Mail and will not get answered.

Before ScottyM posted his first post he was king enough to send me a personal message regarding Scotty having sex with my wife. That was several days ago and the PM was immediately forwarded to the site managers. I see he has now decided to search the site and make pubic posts trying to discredit me. That is fine.

Greg and others are up in arms about my identity. Somehow they feel that a member that wants there identity to not play a part in their opinions makes that person untrustworthy. Greg and Nick also feel that it is completely appropriate to associate a persons name with a screen ID even though they have no proof to support that position. What is new?

Well I have come to the following conclusions (much the same as Greg and Nick did) after receiving private messages and reading the posts of two of the forums members.

ScottyM, or should I call you Bill Vogeney or the Vog as you go by on other sites. It is really inappropriate to post, publicly or privately threatening and obscene messages directed towards another member or that members family. You should know better and it reflects very badly on Cameron to have his number one supporter act in such a way. From now on I will just reply to you in your posts and PM's as Vog.

Biscuit, our southern California connection, or should I call you Rand Pallis or ArtOfPutters as you are known by. It is really a poor reflection to post and send PM's the way you do considering you are one of Cameron's 3 US Distributors and make a living selling his products. I know times are tough selling the "tour" Cameron putters that put bread on your table but do you really need to attack anyone that questions Cameron history, facts and also attack and degrade Mills, Bettinardi, Morgan, Bilings, etc. just to make a point and to build your business? From now on I will just reply to you in your posts and PM's as Rand.

Greg, thanks for pointing out the appropriate manner in which to respond to and address members who would like to keep their identity private. Is it any wonder that I would not want my true identity known when doing so would result in death threats and subject my family to the threats of attack by those that support and follow the example set by Cameron and his closest friends and associats?


PS: Many former TCC members requested that their posts be removed because at least one of the Moderators was going into the system and making edits to the posts to change what was actually posted by the original poster. Hence, anyone reading a post over there would never know that what that person posted was actually what was being shown on the site. It was not grammatical edits but edit to the content and intent of what was posted. Cameron and his followers like to write their own version of history and this includes altering the historic posts of current and former members of TCC so that they read differently than what the intent was.[/quote]

I/we haven't recieved any violation reports from you on posts containing personal attacks on you or members of your family (and I haven't seen any). You're welcome to forward the PM's to me, and I'll be happy to look into it.

[biscuity]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1840731' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:55 AM'][quote name='TM TourClub Ho ' post='1840705' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:41 AM']I suppose if you have invested heavily in a collection, you need to sustain the value somehow[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more. You can't argue the marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron. I mean, look at the site. 1/2 page rollout for a pink spotted headcover. And you can only get it if you are a "cameron member."

But, I can't sit here and say that I don't like his putters, headcovers and pivot tools. Again, I think they carry a "cool" factor and the putter sure works for me.

But, when you start talking about paying thousands for a putter, there better be some provable substance. Just taking my OTR Newport 2 and stamping a "Circle T" on it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Sure doesn't make me want to pay $1500 for it. Or paying $150 for a headcover.... Or $150 for a pivot tool with a "Circle T" stamp on it....

Eventually you start scratching your head.
[/quote]

+1 I wouldn't pay $1500 for a Circle T stamp, or $2500 for Byron's Damascus. But if some people like that stuff I have no problem with them buying it or manufacturers making it.

[biscuity]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1840747' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:10 AM']So if he posts copies of the PM's will you believe him?[/quote]

If he posts the PMs and they are indeed threats, not just theoretcal questions, then I will believe him. But there is zero chances of him posting the PMs because it will expose his lies. Just like he won't say that he's not JR, because doing so would prove that he is a liar.