Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[biscuity]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840823' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:40 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?
[/quote]


Foregasim, looks like you forgot to answer my questions. Maybe your answers will give us some insight on why you are so bitter.


How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life:
a. 0
b. 1 to 10
c. 11 to 30
d. 31 to 50
e. More than 50

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron putter:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $500
d. $501 to $1000
e. More than $1000

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron headcover:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $200
d. $201 to $500
e. More than $500

For the record, my answers are: a, a, and a

Remember, the truth will set you free!

[rrkman]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1841883' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:53 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1841617' date='Jul 24 2009, 06:31 PM']Sorry but I don't see the humor in having these people fight like teenagers (no offense to the teenagers) while making a mockery of your site. This thread had some very interesting info early on but it is really just a good old fashion mudslinging now. I'm glad that this site allows freedom of discussion but I think the last 10 pages or so go way beyond that. And I agree with CallawayOnly - most of the people in this topic have lost credibility with me. There are certainly some that posted facts and stayed respectful....kudos to you. But most of you have just jumped on the bandwagons and acted like bullies....you should be proud.[/quote]
I'm not sure why it makes a mockery of the site - unless you feel that people shouldn't be able to speak their mind. Both "sides" have made some good points, some unnecessary innuendo and a few heated exchanges, but overall it has been quite interesting. To me it seems like it is mostly Cameron supporters who want things to end - interesting.

Besides, I like this thread open - it has kept most of the other putter threads cleaner than usual!
[/quote]

I also think that a lot of great points were made and that, at one point, this was a very productive topic. But, it has turned into a grade school fight. The bullying, the name calling, etc....from BOTH sides. I'm just waiting for someone to say 'your mom'....I think that is all that we are missing. Maybe I should look at it again but I can't remember anything from the last 10 pages that was of any value.....sorry but I just don't see the way people are acting lately in this thread as being productive. The accusations, the personal attacks, saying who people are / are not. If Foregasim wants to stay anonymous, good for him. Personally, I usually find it a little harder to 'trust' something someone says as fact if I have no idea who they are or what they might or might not know....but, he made some good points and had some stuff to back some of it up...same with some other people. And Foregasim calling them Vog and Rand just makes no sense to me.....just as childish or even more childish than the rest of the mudslinging from both sides. The PT guys and the TCC guys hate each other, great. Now can we actually talk about putters again?

I have to disagree with the cleaner threads part....I still see the same sarcastic jabs that have nothing to do with the question in most of the cameron threads.

[scottym]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1841954' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:54 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1840823' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:40 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?
[/quote]


Foregasim, looks like you forgot to answer my questions. Maybe your answers will give us some insight on why you are so bitter.


How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life:
a. 0
b. 1 to 10
c. 11 to 30
d. 31 to 50
e. More than 50

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron putter:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $500
d. $501 to $1000
e. More than $1000

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron headcover:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $200
d. $201 to $500
e. More than $500

For the record, my answers are: a, a, and a

Remember, the truth will set you free!
[/quote]

[b]a[/b],[b]a[/b], and [b]a[/b] for [b]me [/b]too.

[TuffKukae]

[quote name='scottym' post='1841997' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:21 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1841954' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:54 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1840823' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:40 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?
[/quote]


Foregasim, looks like you forgot to answer my questions. Maybe your answers will give us some insight on why you are so bitter.


How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life:
a. 0
b. 1 to 10
c. 11 to 30
d. 31 to 50
e. More than 50

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron putter:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $500
d. $501 to $1000
e. More than $1000

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron headcover:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $200
d. $201 to $500
e. More than $500

For the record, my answers are: a, a, and a

Remember, the truth will set you free!
[/quote]

[b]a[/b],[b]a[/b], and [b]a[/b] for [b]me [/b]too.
[/quote]


Probably C,C and C for me but it's been awhile and I dont intend to sell what Camerons I have left. I actually like them and the perform for me. The thread is too much BS and not enough substance now and I think its run it's course. I very much enjoyed it at first and whether or not the info is true or not, it was enjoyable. Keyword WAS. I actually wanted this thread to pass the L4v circle-jerk, but I dont think it's worth it anymore because it's too asinine now.

die thread die !

[hodges]

[quote name='Redman' post='1840475' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:45 AM']Why do you think JR and lots of other high end collectors asked for their posts to be removed from TCC? This is one thing that hasn't been discussed much. What happened that was so bad that you had several high end well known Cameron Collectors sell their collections and jump ship very very unhappy? It certainly doesn't seem like it was just one or two that had a falling out with Cameron or TCC, but a significant number discovered something that just wasn't right. Can you elaborate on what you know of this?[/quote]

I can elaborate and will give you the 10 cent version, It is a large topic worthy of its own thread. I think it has to do with the start of PT and the requests Scotty made of Doug and all the moderators of TCC at the time. Pre-PT there wasn't nearly the level of Cameron bashing that now exists. I take it you were not around at that time.

Short version Doug tells Scotty he is going to start a new website so the non Cameron talk can be directed there and away from TCC. Doug wanted TCC to be all about Cameron and not other puttermakers. I know this from conversations with Doug and people connected with Scotty.
I have been told by someone who has been in the studio and I would consider an insider that Scotty asked Doug not to start PT.
I believe (purely my opinion and speculation here) that Scotty respected Doug's website abilities and felt a website for his competitors would not be in his best business interests. Maybe Scotty could see the future and see what PT has become. Put yourself in Scottys shoes, would you want your new friend helping your competitors?

At the time Doug had access to Scotty via the telephone, he could call him and Scotty would take the time to talk with him. Doug was helping Rand with the AOP website. Doug was active online. He also didn't have any kids yet so he had more free time. Oh how kids can change your time priorities.

Anyways PT starts and Scotty cuts off Doug. Scotty then ask the moderators to choose to either be on TCC or PT. JR and JS decided to go with PT and I believe that is the root of why JR is now like he is.
Now Doug had a choice to make, what to do with TCC.
I can tell you that I played golf with Doug and Bill V at Disney right after this all happened. Doug and I and several others, sat around after golf and asked Doug about what happened. He told us Scotty just quit taking his calls and he really didn't know what had happened. He didn't want to just shut the TCC website down so he decided to give ( not sell ) the website to Vog, very generous thing to do. Maybe Doug didn't believe Scotty was asking him not to start PT, maybe he didn't understand that Scotty didn't want PT to start and maybe Doug just decided this is America and I am free to do as I please.
I really don't know the answer to that and only Doug does.

Some people felt that Scotty asking moderators to choose the site they wanted to be on was akin to asking people to choose who their friends were. I felt that way for a while. But I understand now that you can't serve two masters and being a mod on both TCC and PT was never going to work. The way all golf internet forums have developed I don't think you could be a successful mod on more than one golf site. (again my personal opinion here)
I maintained a membership on both sites because I wasn't a moderator I could do that. In the begining there were a lot of common members.

I tried to stay friends with the guys from PT but I am not one to toe anyones company line. I just tell it how I see it. When JR's posting became more negative and he started twisting facts and stories I tried to point out his errors as politely as possible. He never liked being corrected. I guess that is why he has had timeouts from some of the other golf sites he has been a member of. Eventually I was dismissed from PT because I wasn't contributing what they wanted contributed.

I think the reasons JR sold his collect are obvious, I really don't know any of the other people you mention well enough to comment on them. JR makes a great impression in person, he is a really likeable guy. But get him behind his keyboard and someone else appears.

The members that asked for their posts to be removed did so because they were no longer members and only they could comment on their reasons.

This is the history that I know from being there and first hand conversations. where I have posted my opinion I have tried to note that.

If the Mods of the site think this should be split off into its own thread no problems, if the mods of this site find talking about other sites not what golfwrx is about and you want to delete it no problem (well I did take a long time to write this out)

Redman I hope this gives you a little insite to some past history. more questions just ask
Greg

PS:
Foregaism if you are not JR there is probably no reason for you to respond to anything in this post unless you to have personally met JR

[tpariff]

Heck, I could answer those questions as C, E, E. What does that have to do with being bitter?

[TuffKukae]

Greg thanks for making an interesting post, this thread needed it.

[tpariff]

Greg, that's basically the story as I remember it. I was in Orlando when all that stuff went down.

What happened to David Levine? Any color on that?

Kevin

[hodges]

I never met David and don't really know much about him. I understood him to be a wealthy collector of many things. When he grew tired on one hobby he moves on to another. The thrill of the hunt is very intoxicating to some, me included.
Been darn nice up here this summer, Were are averaging about 8 degrees cooler than normal. 50's in the evenings and low 80's most days for highs. that global warming is a thing of beauty
G

Ps I off to bed but will offer no proof

[Riuzzi]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1841498' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:05 PM'][quote name='Riuzzi' post='1840750' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:11 AM']I/we haven't recieved any violation reports from you on posts containing personal attacks on you or members of your family (and I haven't seen any). You're welcome to forward the PM's to me, and I'll be happy to look into it.[/quote]

I have reported the threads in question that were personal attacks, at least two different time, nothing was done. It is incorrect to imply that there have not be any violations reported.

I reported the PM's to another Marshal (MrParr1Noid) and was told "here isn't anything I can do, I have zero controls but you can take your plea to "easyyy" or "Gxgolfer"". I tried to copy the PM and also send a PM to GolfWRX who is listed as the started of the Rules thread but received a message that the user was not accepting PM's or something like that.

[b]When personal attacks take place and they are reported by hitting the Violation button and describing the violation, I would think that would be enough?[/b]

Is there some section on the site that has links and or instructions on who to contact when there is a problem?

Am I suppose to go through the thread and once again report the posts where personal attacks take place?

I will stick by my posts and what I said. If others take what I said and change or put their own interpretation on it that is something different. What I posted is what occurred.
[/quote]

You are exactly right. If you see something that you think is in violation of the rules, press the violation button. We will then take a look at it, and if it does indeed break the rules, we will take care of it. As Richard has also stated earlier, we've given this thread a lot more leeway compared to how we usually moderate the threads here, simply because we wanted to keep this thread open because of the interesting information being posted.

As far as I remember, we've recieved 3-4 (or less than 5 ) violation reports from you in total, and I don't remember any of them as being harsh personal attacks on you or your family.

[add1]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1841954' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:54 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1840823' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:40 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?
[/quote]


Foregasim, looks like you forgot to answer my questions. Maybe your answers will give us some insight on why you are so bitter.


How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life:
a. 0
b. 1 to 10
c. 11 to 30
d. 31 to 50
e. More than 50

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron putter:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $500
d. $501 to $1000
e. More than $1000

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron headcover:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $200
d. $201 to $500
e. More than $500

For the record, my answers are: a, a, and a

Remember, the truth will set you free!
[/quote]
Sorry these are loaded questions in your favour and pointless.Now its fair to say that Foregasim takes an opposing veiw to yourself and the personal attacks are getting boring.There have been good posts on BOTH sides and you are a collector I get it,but he's some questions for you.

How many Camerons do you own:
a. 1-5
b. 6-10
c 11-15
d more than 15

How many headcovers do you own:
a 1-5
b 6-10
c 11-15
d more than 15

How much do value your collection at (for insurance purposes only):
a $500
b $501-$999
c $1000-$1500
d more than $1501

The only reason I ask is you keep asking posters to show themselves can you step upto the plate please.If your a collector and the market crashed what do you stand to lose.My answers to your questions are b,c,b I'm not a collector but if you can make easy money go for it.The answers to my questions are a,a,a, see its easy if you load the question.

[hodges]

[quote name='Riuzzi' post='1842203' date='Jul 25 2009, 03:28 AM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1841498' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:05 PM'][quote name='Riuzzi' post='1840750' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:11 AM']I/we haven't recieved any violation reports from you on posts containing personal attacks on you or members of your family (and I haven't seen any). You're welcome to forward the PM's to me, and I'll be happy to look into it.[/quote]

I have reported the threads in question that were personal attacks, at least two different time, nothing was done. It is incorrect to imply that there have not be any violations reported.

I reported the PM's to another Marshal (MrParr1Noid) and was told "here isn't anything I can do, I have zero controls but you can take your plea to "easyyy" or "Gxgolfer"". I tried to copy the PM and also send a PM to GolfWRX who is listed as the started of the Rules thread but received a message that the user was not accepting PM's or something like that.

[b]When personal attacks take place and they are reported by hitting the Violation button and describing the violation, I would think that would be enough?[/b]

Is there some section on the site that has links and or instructions on who to contact when there is a problem?

Am I suppose to go through the thread and once again report the posts where personal attacks take place?

I will stick by my posts and what I said. If others take what I said and change or put their own interpretation on it that is something different. What I posted is what occurred.
[/quote]

You are exactly right. If you see something that you think is in violation of the rules, press the violation button. We will then take a look at it, and if it does indeed break the rules, we will take care of it. As Richard has also stated earlier, we've given this thread a lot more leeway compared to how we usually moderate the threads here, simply because we wanted to keep this thread open because of the interesting information being posted.

As far as I remember, we've recieved 3-4 (or less than 5 ) violation reports from you in total, and I don't remember any of them as being harsh personal attacks on you or your family.
[/quote]

What ? Foregasims reported personal attacks by them Cameron bullies don't match up with the mods information here.
Very interesting.
Now why would a guy embellish his story like that.
And to the few of you that blindly believed everything that Foregasim writes, what say you now?

[Riuzzi]

[quote name='hodges' post='1842230' date='Jul 25 2009, 12:19 PM'][quote name='Riuzzi' post='1842203' date='Jul 25 2009, 03:28 AM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1841498' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:05 PM'][quote name='Riuzzi' post='1840750' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:11 AM']I/we haven't recieved any violation reports from you on posts containing personal attacks on you or members of your family (and I haven't seen any). You're welcome to forward the PM's to me, and I'll be happy to look into it.[/quote]

I have reported the threads in question that were personal attacks, at least two different time, nothing was done. It is incorrect to imply that there have not be any violations reported.

I reported the PM's to another Marshal (MrParr1Noid) and was told "here isn't anything I can do, I have zero controls but you can take your plea to "easyyy" or "Gxgolfer"". I tried to copy the PM and also send a PM to GolfWRX who is listed as the started of the Rules thread but received a message that the user was not accepting PM's or something like that.

[b]When personal attacks take place and they are reported by hitting the Violation button and describing the violation, I would think that would be enough?[/b]

Is there some section on the site that has links and or instructions on who to contact when there is a problem?

Am I suppose to go through the thread and once again report the posts where personal attacks take place?

I will stick by my posts and what I said. If others take what I said and change or put their own interpretation on it that is something different. What I posted is what occurred.
[/quote]

You are exactly right. If you see something that you think is in violation of the rules, press the violation button. We will then take a look at it, and if it does indeed break the rules, we will take care of it. As Richard has also stated earlier, we've given this thread a lot more leeway compared to how we usually moderate the threads here, simply because we wanted to keep this thread open because of the interesting information being posted.

As far as I remember, we've recieved 3-4 (or less than 5 ) violation reports from you in total, and I don't remember any of them as being harsh personal attacks on you or your family.
[/quote]

What ? Foregasims reported personal attacks by them Cameron bullies don't match up with the mods information here.
Very interesting.
Now why would a guy embellish his story like that.
And to the few of you that blindly believed everything that Foregasim writes, what say you now?
[/quote]

I'm only talking about posts in this thread, I don't know anything about the supposed attacks in PM's as I haven't seen them.

[dubbie]

For those that want to close this thread I ask that you just quit reading it and posting in it. I have gained a lot of insight and continue to draw my own conclusions, all of course are subject to change.

If you don't like what's being posted, stay away from it.

To the Mods: While there have been some attacks, and certainly there are some personal vendettas raising their eyebrows, I compliment you on allowing this thread to continue. While this is only my second post in it, it has kept my internet time fulfilling.

Thanks

[RobotDoctor]

To think that all this furor between people is because of a putter, a piece of metal on a shaft. We are not talking about life altering items here. We are not talking about the cure for cancer or other serious health issues. We are not talking about stopping world hunger. We are not talking of current events. We are talking about a stupid putter. The unfortunate thing is that people have been caught in the middle of this and most don't know the full story. Much has been shared by Greg regarding the story but I am sure this is not the full story. Knowing the story has made some people draw their own conclusions as to support the putter designer or not. Some chose to part ways while others continue the support. Each of us must make our own decision for ourselves based on what we believe is the right thing to do.

I see an insecure putter designer getting his undies tied up in a knot because someone wanted a site where discussion of other putters could take place. One person wanted to explore his passion of the flat stick, and share that passion (free of charge) to the internet world while the other wanted to further the obsession of his flat stick (nobody else's). At the end of the day one person's aim was passion while the other's was profit. Such a shame when money gets between friendship.

[stage1350]

Greg,

I'm curious because I wasn't around TCC when "the incident" went down with Doug and Scotty. But from what I have gathered, there was a push on TCC to eliminate discussion of other putter OEMs. Is that a fair assessment?

If that's the case, but there is a need to discuss other OEMs because the membership always wants to take that tangent, wouldn't starting another site make sense to you? Either that, or you keep it on the primary site in a child forum.

So if that was the situation, what do you do if you're in Doug's shoes? There is a desire/need for another site for non-Cameron discussion, yet Scotty draws a line in the sand. You're either with me or you're against me.

Personally, when I have people in my life that make me choose between friends, the one that draws a line in the sand like that usually loses. Why can't you have both? Is there really such insecurity that I can't share a mutual passion for putters and not a brand?

If Scotty made Doug and the mods choose a side, then it was a poor call on his part and I would definitely not have a positive image of him either. Most people I know love [b]putters[/b] regardless of brand. To expect someone to be 100% brand loyal lest you incur his wrath is a sure way to lose my business.

Just my opinion.
-Brad

[i]EDIT: I'm sitting here with a devilish smile after spellchecking my post. Substitute Cameron for BSG and it's eerily similar to the story about how WRX started! [/i]

[Tim Delgado]

[quote name='TuffKukae' post='1842040' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:43 PM']Greg thanks for making an interesting post, this thread needed it.[/quote]



Agreed. Interesting post.

Seems odd to me that Cameron or anyone would tell Mods that they "have to choose". What on earth is wrong with being a fan of more than one putter style?

While I appreciate Greg's post and insider info, I must disagree with his assessment that a Mod cannot serve "two masters". I just don't think that "serving a master" is what a golf or putter forum shoud be, or needs to be about.

For the record, regarding Biscuity's poll, I am A, A, A.

And while I will never "collect" putters, bagtags, headcovers, etc., I do like a bunch of the Cameron putters, and also like a bunch of the Betti putters. I wouldn't mind having several from each!

And for the record, my real name is...................TIM DELGADO!!! And if I ever felt the need to post something negative about someone, I would use my real name and stand behind it just as if the guy was right in front of me. Call me old-fashioned I guess.

I must agree with the earlier post about both sides losing credibility (even though there has been some good, behind-the-scenes info) with all the silly personal attacks and the hidden identities.

Sort of like all the "anonymous McCain camp" sources in the personal political attacks of Palin recently. They have absolutely ZERO credibility with most intelligent Americans because the "sources" won't identify themselves. If you need to hide behind anonymity, then there is a good chance (IMO) that you aren't shooting straight or have some ulterior motive or agenda.

If credibility is important to someone, they should stand up and stand behind what they say. Pretty simple stuff. This statement is directed to ALL the posters in this thread.

Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting to keep your real identity private, nothing wrong with that at all. Just accept that your statements will always be viewed by most with some skepticism since you won't identify yourself and truly stand behind your statements.

IMO there is never anything to be scared of if you are telling the truth.

One small request please, let's keep this more about the putters, putter makers, and behind-the-scene stories and events, and less about the personal attacks and back and forth insults. It really is boorish and SOME of us would like to see this thread remain open, and maybe even see the return of the missing-in-action OP with some updated inside information. It COULD happen.

Tim

[biscuity]

[quote name='add1' post='1842221' date='Jul 25 2009, 01:48 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1841954' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:54 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1840823' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:40 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1840735' date='Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM']The sad part is that people aren't collecting these putters because they love golf. Or because they love the style. They are doing it because of the money. Why has this thread turned so hostile? Because people are trying to make money off of another person's passion. Because the money is so important that they will make threats. They will attempt legal action. It's sad, especially in this game.[/quote]


Sorry Stage1350, but I don't agree with that statement. Most people collect Scotty Cameron putters/headcovers/pivot tools because they like them. They like the style, they like the challenge of collecting, they like displaying them, they like going to conventions, they like discussing them with friends on TCC. I'm sure some of the people are collecting them for profit, flipping headcovers etc, but I think it's a small percentage. The funny thing is, foregasim was in that small percentage, and now he's bitter because his inside connection got cut off. How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life foregasim? What's the most profit you've ever made on a Cameron headcover?
[/quote]


Foregasim, looks like you forgot to answer my questions. Maybe your answers will give us some insight on why you are so bitter.


How many Cameron putters have you sold in your life:
a. 0
b. 1 to 10
c. 11 to 30
d. 31 to 50
e. More than 50

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron putter:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $500
d. $501 to $1000
e. More than $1000

What is the most profit you've ever made on the sale of a Cameron headcover:
a. $0
b. $1 to $100
c. $101 to $200
d. $201 to $500
e. More than $500

For the record, my answers are: a, a, and a

Remember, the truth will set you free!
[/quote]
Sorry these are loaded questions in your favour and pointless.Now its fair to say that Foregasim takes an opposing veiw to yourself and the personal attacks are getting boring.There have been good posts on BOTH sides and you are a collector I get it,but he's some questions for you.

How many Camerons do you own:
a. 1-5
b. 6-10
c 11-15
d more than 15

How many headcovers do you own:
a 1-5
b 6-10
c 11-15
d more than 15

How much do value your collection at (for insurance purposes only):
a $500
b $501-$999
c $1000-$1500
d more than $1501

The only reason I ask is you keep asking posters to show themselves can you step upto the plate please.If your a collector and the market crashed what do you stand to lose.My answers to your questions are b,c,b I'm not a collector but if you can make easy money go for it.The answers to my questions are a,a,a, see its easy if you load the question.

[/quote]

I have no problem stepping up to the plate.

a - I own 4 used OTR Cameron putters

a - I own 5 Cameron headcovers, none of them are collector items, and I don't use them when I play

a - $500 is a realistic insurance value estimate of the Cameron items that I own.

[Tim Delgado]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1842369' date='Jul 25 2009, 08:45 AM']My apologies to the Group Marshal's whom I have offended with my posts. The same apology goes out to any members who have been offended by any of my posts that they consider insulting or personal attacks.

Sometimes it is difficult to take the high road but in the future I will do my best to do so. I have tried to provide information to those that have asked questions and to point out historic information and events that I thought others might not be aware of and that they would interested in knowing. Each person has the right to take the information and believe it or not, use all of it or part of it to form their own opinions, etc.

Many times posts by others have been made that have put a different spin on what I posted. If anyone wants to form an opinion on what I said please go back and review my actual posts and do not form your opinion based upon how someone else has paraphrased, interpreted or otherwise mischaracterized what was actually posted.

[b]If the only way someone has to refute information that another person has posted is to insult, degrade, or attack the person who posted the information, then that speaks volumes about them and their position[/b]. I include myself in this category also and will take every ounce of restraint I can muster to not take that tactic in the future.

Again, my apologies to the Group Marshal's and any forum members who I have offended.[/quote]



Agreed 100%.

Excellent post.

Tim

[biscuity]

[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1842339' date='Jul 25 2009, 06:14 AM'][quote name='TuffKukae' post='1842040' date='Jul 24 2009, 10:43 PM']Greg thanks for making an interesting post, this thread needed it.[/quote]



Agreed. Interesting post.

Seems odd to me that Cameron or anyone would tell Mods that they "have to choose". What on earth is wrong with being a fan of more than one putter style?

While I appreciate Greg's post and insider info, I must disagree with his assessment that a Mod cannot serve "two masters". I just don't think that "serving a master" is what a golf or putter forum shoud be, or needs to be about.

For the record, regarding Biscuity's poll, I am A, A, A.

And while I will never "collect" putters, bagtags, headcovers, etc., I do like a bunch of the Cameron putters, and also like a bunch of the Betti putters. I wouldn't mind having several from each!

And for the record, my real name is...................TIM DELGADO!!! And if I ever felt the need to post something negative about someone, I would use my real name and stand behind it just as if the guy was right in front of me. Call me old-fashioned I guess.

I must agree with the earlier post about both sides losing credibility (even though there has been some good, behind-the-scenes info) with all the silly personal attacks and the hidden identities.

Sort of like all "anonymous" sources in the personal political attacks of Palin recently, if credibility is really important, just stand up and say who you are. Pretty simple really IMO. This statement is directed to ALL the posters in this thread.

Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting to keep your real identity private, nothing wrong with that at all. Just accept that your statements will always be viewed by most with some skepticism since you won't identify yourself and truly stand behind your statements.

IMO there is never anything to be scared of if you are telling the truth.

One small request please, let's keep this more about the putters, putter makers, and behind-the-scene stories and events, and less about the personal attacks and back and forth insults. It really is boorish and SOME of us would like to see this thread remain open, and maybe even see the return of the missing-in-action OP with some updated inside information. It COULD happen.

Tim
[/quote]

Foregasim has stated that I lied about my name on Puttertalk. I responded publicly that I used my real name, Robert, and that I'd challenge anyone to a bet of $100,000 that I could prove it. Yet he still calls me "Rand" in this thread.

To me that is dishonest and a smoke screen he uses to avoid answering the direct question if he is "JR", moderator of Puttertalk, ex-Cameron insider who got kicked off of TCC, a person who has been warned by Wikipedia to stop providing false/misleading information numerous times (more than 60 edits by him) on the Scotty Cameron biography page. A person who claims that serious personal threats were made to him on this forum, but can't back up that claim.

Yes or no foregasim, are you JR?

[Jesperday]

[quote name='hodges' post='1842023' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:36 PM'][quote name='Redman' post='1840475' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:45 AM']Why do you think JR and lots of other high end collectors asked for their posts to be removed from TCC? This is one thing that hasn't been discussed much. What happened that was so bad that you had several high end well known Cameron Collectors sell their collections and jump ship very very unhappy? It certainly doesn't seem like it was just one or two that had a falling out with Cameron or TCC, but a significant number discovered something that just wasn't right. Can you elaborate on what you know of this?[/quote]

I can elaborate and will give you the 10 cent version, It is a large topic worthy of its own thread. I think it has to do with the start of PT and the requests Scotty made of Doug and all the moderators of TCC at the time. Pre-PT there wasn't nearly the level of Cameron bashing that now exists. I take it you were not around at that time.

Short version Doug tells Scotty he is going to start a new website so the non Cameron talk can be directed there and away from TCC. Doug wanted TCC to be all about Cameron and not other puttermakers. I know this from conversations with Doug and people connected with Scotty.
I have been told by someone who has been in the studio and I would consider an insider that Scotty asked Doug not to start PT.
I believe (purely my opinion and speculation here) that Scotty respected Doug's website abilities and felt a website for his competitors would not be in his best business interests. Maybe Scotty could see the future and see what PT has become. Put yourself in Scottys shoes, would you want your new friend helping your competitors?

At the time Doug had access to Scotty via the telephone, he could call him and Scotty would take the time to talk with him. Doug was helping Rand with the AOP website. Doug was active online. He also didn't have any kids yet so he had more free time. Oh how kids can change your time priorities.

Anyways PT starts and Scotty cuts off Doug. Scotty then ask the moderators to choose to either be on TCC or PT. JR and JS decided to go with PT and I believe that is the root of why JR is now like he is.
Now Doug had a choice to make, what to do with TCC.
I can tell you that I played golf with Doug and Bill V at Disney right after this all happened. Doug and I and several others, sat around after golf and asked Doug about what happened. He told us Scotty just quit taking his calls and he really didn't know what had happened. He didn't want to just shut the TCC website down so he decided to give ( not sell ) the website to Vog, very generous thing to do. Maybe Doug didn't believe Scotty was asking him not to start PT, maybe he didn't understand that Scotty didn't want PT to start and maybe Doug just decided this is America and I am free to do as I please.
I really don't know the answer to that and only Doug does.

Some people felt that Scotty asking moderators to choose the site they wanted to be on was akin to asking people to choose who their friends were. I felt that way for a while. But I understand now that you can't serve two masters and being a mod on both TCC and PT was never going to work. The way all golf internet forums have developed I don't think you could be a successful mod on more than one golf site. (again my personal opinion here)
I maintained a membership on both sites because I wasn't a moderator I could do that. In the begining there were a lot of common members.

I tried to stay friends with the guys from PT but I am not one to toe anyones company line. I just tell it how I see it. When JR's posting became more negative and he started twisting facts and stories I tried to point out his errors as politely as possible. He never liked being corrected. I guess that is why he has had timeouts from some of the other golf sites he has been a member of. Eventually I was dismissed from PT because I wasn't contributing what they wanted contributed.

I think the reasons JR sold his collect are obvious, I really don't know any of the other people you mention well enough to comment on them. JR makes a great impression in person, he is a really likeable guy. But get him behind his keyboard and someone else appears.

The members that asked for their posts to be removed did so because they were no longer members and only they could comment on their reasons.

This is the history that I know from being there and first hand conversations. where I have posted my opinion I have tried to note that.

If the Mods of the site think this should be split off into its own thread no problems, if the mods of this site find talking about other sites not what golfwrx is about and you want to delete it no problem (well I did take a long time to write this out)

Redman I hope this gives you a little insite to some past history. more questions just ask
Greg

PS:
Foregaism if you are not JR there is probably no reason for you to respond to anything in this post unless you to have personally met JR
[/quote]


So did Bill Vogeney have co-ownership of the site with Doug? If not, how did Doug go about choosing Bill to give him the site?

[CPSOX]

Brad and Tim -

I do not have the first hand knowledge that Greg has of what went down while the group was in Florida, but I have always understood that moderating on PT would result in the loss of SPECIAL considerations that people may have had while moderating on TCC. Not that they would loose the ability to collect Camerons (impossible to patrol, obviously), but to lose the ability to do/get things you and I could not. Never was one told they couldn't be a member of both sides. Those decisions were made by the individuals themselves and in fact, one remains a mod at PT and a very highly respected member on TCC. He has found it very possible to remain friends across both boards. I know, what a concept?!?!

Brad - The difference between TCC limiting other talk about OEM's and other forums pushing an agenda is in the name. THE CAMERON COLLECTOR is obviously a very focused niche site. You can't go on a Cubs forum and talk White Sox. But you can go on a MLB forum and talk both teams. Admittedly, TCC may be the only golf forum of it's kind on the web that has such a focused mandate, but that's because there are enough people who can keep a forum active on only Cameron talk. Even Vog himself has publicly stated he owns putters from other OEMs. Not to mention there are dozens of other forums that discuss every OEM. It was STARTED as a fan site and it remains a fan site. Members have every right to criticize on TCC, with the caveat that in general they are a fan. If you are obviously not a fan of the brand, there is no real reason to be a member there other than to stir up trouble. Above all else, PRESENTATION is key. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Have people gotten banned for good reason? Yes. Have they been banned because something said was misinterpreted? Probably so. Though from my experience, if the banned member reaches out and has a good conversation with the mod(s) a reinstatement is usually not a problem.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='Jesperday ' post='1842427' date='Jul 25 2009, 09:21 AM']So did Bill Vogeney have co-ownership of the site with Doug? If not, how did Doug go about choosing Bill to give him the site?[/quote]

Bill ran the RCFC board on the Yahoo! forums, which had formed after the SCFC on Yahoo! fell apart due to lack of moderation. (I was one of the mods too....so it was partially my fault). Every mod on PT was a long time Cameron collector that "we" all knew except for Doug's father. Bill was the obvious steward of the brand and I believe Doug's intentions of giving TCC to Bill were altruistic. As for "co-ownership", I believe there was a transition period were Doug helped Vog learn the ins and outs of "owning" a forum.

[blkdiamond]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1842467' date='Jul 25 2009, 08:48 AM']Brad and Tim -

I do not have the first hand knowledge that Greg has of what went down while the group was in Florida, but I have always understood that moderating on PT would result in the loss of SPECIAL considerations that people may have had while moderating on TCC. Not that they would loose the ability to collect Camerons (impossible to patrol, obviously), but to lose the ability to do/get things you and I could not. Never was one told they couldn't be a member of both sides. Those decisions were made by the individuals themselves and in fact, one remains a mod at PT and a very highly respected member on TCC. He has found it very possible to remain friends across both boards. I know, what a concept?!?!

Brad - The difference between TCC limiting other talk about OEM's and other forums pushing an agenda is in the name. THE CAMERON COLLECTOR is obviously a very focused niche site. You can't go on a Cubs forum and talk White Sox. But you can go on a MLB forum and talk both teams. Admittedly, TCC may be the only golf forum of it's kind on the web that has such a focused mandate, but that's because there are enough people who can keep a forum active on only Cameron talk. Even Vog himself has publicly stated he owns putters from other OEMs. Not to mention there are dozens of other forums that discuss every OEM. It was STARTED as a fan site and it remains a fan site. Members have every right to criticize on TCC, with the caveat that in general they are a fan. If you are obviously not a fan of the brand, there is no real reason to be a member there other than to stir up trouble. Above all else, PRESENTATION is key. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Have people gotten banned for good reason? Yes. Have they been banned because something said was misinterpreted? Probably so. Though from my experience, if the banned member reaches out and has a good conversation with the mod(s) a reinstatement is usually not a problem.[/quote]

Probably one of the best posts in this thread. This mirrors exactly how I feel, thanks for your contribution.

[tangojay]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1842467' date='Jul 25 2009, 09:48 AM']Brad and Tim -

[b]1[/b]I do not have the first hand knowledge that Greg has of what went down while the group was in Florida, but I have always understood that moderating on PT would result in the loss of SPECIAL considerations that people may have had while moderating on TCC. Not that they would loose the ability to collect Camerons (impossible to patrol, obviously), but to lose the ability to do/get things you and I could not. Never was one told they couldn't be a member of both sides. Those decisions were made by the individuals themselves and in fact, one remains a mod at PT and a very highly respected member on TCC. He has found it very possible to remain friends across both boards. I know, what a concept?!?!

[b]2[/b] Brad - The difference between TCC limiting other talk about OEM's and other forums pushing an agenda is in the name. THE CAMERON COLLECTOR is obviously a very focused niche site. You can't go on a Cubs forum and talk White Sox. But you can go on a MLB forum and talk both teams. Admittedly, TCC may be the only golf forum of it's kind on the web that has such a focused mandate, but that's because there are enough people who can keep a forum active on only Cameron talk. Even Vog himself has publicly stated he owns putters from other OEMs. Not to mention there are dozens of other forums that discuss every OEM. It was STARTED as a fan site and it remains a fan site. Members have every right to criticize on TCC, with the caveat that in general they are a fan. If you are obviously not a fan of the brand, there is no real reason to be a member there other than to stir up trouble. Above all else, PRESENTATION is key. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Have people gotten banned for good reason? Yes. Have they been banned because something said was misinterpreted? Probably so. Though from my experience, if the banned member reaches out and has a good conversation with the mod(s) a reinstatement is usually not a problem.[/quote]

1. This is not 100% acurate, some mods at PT were NEVER mods at TCC nor big Cameron collectors, yet were banned from TCC without warning nor explanation, it was not required for them to get an explanation,but,none the less I think it would have been a polite act to advise them, I think most would have been more than understanding.

2. Some people have been banned from both sites for very good reasons, some for questionable ones and misunderstood reasons, for a couple of weeks, it seemed that some TCC members considered it a badge of honor to be banned from PT and I heard some even bragged about it in their posts and PM's, I did not read them so I cannot authenticate them. and can only label them as rumors.

Nice post by the way.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='tangojay' post='1842601' date='Jul 25 2009, 11:26 AM']1. This is not 100% acurate, some mods at PT were NEVER mods at TCC nor big Cameron collectors, yet were banned from TCC without warning nor explanation, it was not required for them to get an explanation,but,none the less I think it would have been a polite act to advise them, I think most would have been more than understanding.

2. Some people have been banned from both sites for very good reasons, some for questionable ones and misunderstood reasons, for a couple of weeks, it seemed that some TCC members considered it a badge of honor to be banned from PT and I heard some even bragged about it in their posts and PM's, I did not read them so I cannot authenticate them. and can only label them as rumors.

Nice post by the way.[/quote]

1. Sorry for the confusion. It was my intent to include only those who moderate at PT who were previously mods at TCC. But to your point, in all honesty if you've been banned from a forum, there is a good likelihood that you know the reason already. Some cases aren't like that, but many are.

2. I've spoken to some of those who were banned from PT and I am one myself (I actually asked Smitty and Doug to do so). The fighting became so bad between the sides that it made no sense (for me at least) to get in the middle of it. I am obviously a Cameron fan, but I keep in touch with friends who migrated to PT in other ways. Much healthier than always watching the bickering....it's just putters, folks.

[reflog74]

Clint,

What you've been assuming, i.e. what you stated your understanding to be, is wrong. You don't know me. We've never met. You don't know that I received any "special" consideration for being a TCC mod (I did not). And, you don't know what I was told about my choices with regard to TCC/PT.

Don't post as if you do. And don't include me in your assumptions and generalizations.

Finally, don't forget that back then TCC was an independent website and we had no "masters". The same is true at PT today. I think we could have run both sites peacefully, but we never got a chance to try.

John

[CPSOX]

[quote name='reflog74' post='1842900' date='Jul 25 2009, 03:46 PM']Clint,

What you've been assuming, i.e. what you stated your understanding to be, is wrong. You don't know me. We've never met. You don't know that I received any "special" consideration for being a TCC mod (I did not). And, you don't know what I was told about my choices with regard to TCC/PT.

Don't post as if you do. And don't include me in your assumptions and generalizations.

Finally, don't forget that back then TCC was an independent website and we had no "masters". The same is true at PT today. I think we could have run both sites peacefully, but we never got a chance to try.

John[/quote]

You're right John, we've never met and I don't know you. And once the mandate between PT and TCC came, seems like that possibility was thrown out the window....pity.

Have a great weekend.

CPS

[biscuity]

[quote name='reflog74' post='1842900' date='Jul 25 2009, 01:46 PM']Clint,

What you've been assuming, i.e. what you stated your understanding to be, is wrong. You don't know me. We've never met. You don't know that I received any "special" consideration for being a TCC mod (I did not). And, you don't know what I was told about my choices with regard to TCC/PT.

Don't post as if you do. And don't include me in your assumptions and generalizations.

Finally, don't forget that back then TCC was an independent website and we had no "masters". The same is true at PT today. I think we could have run both sites peacefully, but we never got a chance to try.

John[/quote]

The information that CPSOX wrote was right in line with the information I received from a former TCC "insider". He stated that TCC moderators [b]"have access to Scotty and regularly get custom putters and other items that no one else has access to."[/b]

So, while you may have not been given the perks, other TCC moderators have clearly received special items and opportunities. Which is fine with me, I have no problem with moderators being rewarded for their efforts. But, as we've seen, when someone gets cut off from the perks they sometimes decide to go on an internet-wide mission of bashing.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1843150' date='Jul 25 2009, 05:43 PM'][quote name='reflog74' post='1842900' date='Jul 25 2009, 01:46 PM']Clint,

What you've been assuming, i.e. what you stated your understanding to be, is wrong. You don't know me. We've never met. You don't know that I received any "special" consideration for being a TCC mod (I did not). And, you don't know what I was told about my choices with regard to TCC/PT.

Don't post as if you do. And don't include me in your assumptions and generalizations.

Finally, don't forget that back then TCC was an independent website and we had no "masters". The same is true at PT today. I think we could have run both sites peacefully, but we never got a chance to try.

John[/quote]

The information that CPSOX wrote was right in line with the information I received from a former TCC "insider". He stated that TCC moderators [b]"have access to Scotty and regularly get custom putters and other items that no one else has access to."[/b]

So, while you may have not been given the perks, other TCC moderators have clearly received special items and opportunities. Which is fine with me, I have no problem with moderators being rewarded for their efforts. But, as we've seen, when someone gets cut off from the perks they sometimes decide to go on an internet-wide mission of bashing.
[/quote]

How about some people (a moderator for example) making a decision that friendships cannot be bought by some putter designer and perks when the line in the sand is drawn. Maybe a former moderator of a fan site takes friendship over personal greed and does not take ranting threats kindly and will buy their [i]"oil cloth"[/i] anywhere they choose. I just know that for some people friendships and associations cannot be purchased but a perk putter here and there.