Ridiculous Handicap

[bendy]

My partner (off 7) and I played in a summer doubles knockout with about 70 people in it, fourball better ball, and we managed to get to the final which we played today. We were up against a 20 handicapper who plays in a few competitions and has put other supplementary cards in to lower his handicap by 5 shots in 4 months (fair play). The other guy is off 14....never seen him in a comp in my life.

 

Well, we shot a 74 between us, and this "14" handicap, shot a gross 70 BY HIMSELF! Now come on, that's one hell of a "just a good day"! I asked him how many comps he'd played in...."none" came the reply. Now somethings not quite right there......

 

Apparently theres a new rule, where you have to play in 3 qualifiers to have a legit handicap......but bloody late for us.

 

Sorry, needed to realise my annoyance at this ridiculous bloke on here!

[dlygrisse]

Sand bagger for sure

[BigPete]

That's harsh - most of the time I try and defend the mid handicapper but not here - you was robbed son.

I play off 12 legit (20+ comps this year) and just shot a casual round of 5 over playing alone today from the comp tees and was running around the 18th green like I'd won the Ryder Cup - kinda embarrassing for a 38 yo bloke on his own but what the heck. God knows what I'd do when I play to par...

[obsessedgolfer]

I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.

[crtssxc]

[quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]

That is impossible because the handicap only counts 10 of your last 20. So if 50% of his last 20 rounds (10) were 79 on that course, he would be a 3.5 ish by my estimation. So either he isnt posting rounds or something because the math just doesnt make sense.

I hate when people do it, makes the whole system look like a joke (as you said).

[bignose]

[quote name='crtssxc' post='1962425' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:31 PM'][quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]

That is impossible because the handicap only counts 10 of your last 20. So if 50% of his last 20 rounds (10) were 79 on that course, he would be a 3.5 ish by my estimation. So either he isnt posting rounds or something because the math just doesnt make sense.

I hate when people do it, makes the whole system look like a joke (as you said).
[/quote]

I think that was exactly crtssxc's point, hence the word "supposed".

The system itself isn't all that bad, it is the people in it. The system is all-in-all a reasonable fair way to match two golfers of unequal ability. It just doesn't work when people lie. And, unless you are going to demand that a scorer go around with every single person on every single round, I don't know how you can prevent people from lying. Even then, it is probably worth it if the prizes are lucrative enough, for a person to intentionally go out and have a dozen or so "off" rounds and then "really knuckle down and practice" and then get better at just the right times.

The sandbagging phenomena is prevalent in any sport where handicaps or ratings are used. When I was in college, I played some competitive chess, and when someone started getting really good, the goal was always to try to get into as many big tournaments as possible because it would take 2-4 months before your results would show up in your official US Chess Federation rating. Hence, you could beat any of the other players in your class (assuming they were honest or not rising quickly, too). It isn't "sandbagging" per se, but it is taking advantage of the system. It is definitely possible in golf, too, where someone does put in a lot of practice time or just has that "a-ha!" moment when things start clicking, but it is a shame all too often it is someone turning in poor scorecards to sandbag.

I've never played competitive pool, but I know people who do and they complain about the same thing with the pool handicap system. I don't know any competitive darts players, but I am willing to bet there are pretty similar complaints. They are probably everywhere, all the way down to the shuffleboard league at your local senior center.

To "fix" it, I think you'd need to fix the human desire to lie and win things instead of play fair. The really rotten thing is that it only takes 1 or 2 people to get away with it before other people think "well, if they are doing it, I'm going to too, because otherwise it really isn't fair" and it is all downhill from there.

[crtssxc]

[quote name='bignose' post='1962449' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:46 PM'][quote name='crtssxc' post='1962425' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:31 PM'][quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]

That is impossible because the handicap only counts 10 of your last 20. So if 50% of his last 20 rounds (10) were 79 on that course, he would be a 3.5 ish by my estimation. So either he isnt posting rounds or something because the math just doesnt make sense.

I hate when people do it, makes the whole system look like a joke (as you said).
[/quote]

I think that was exactly crtssxc's point, hence the word "supposed".

The system itself isn't all that bad, it is the people in it. The system is all-in-all a reasonable fair way to match two golfers of unequal ability. It just doesn't work when people lie. And, unless you are going to demand that a scorer go around with every single person on every single round, I don't know how you can prevent people from lying. Even then, it is probably worth it if the prizes are lucrative enough, for a person to intentionally go out and have a dozen or so "off" rounds and then "really knuckle down and practice" and then get better at just the right times.

The sandbagging phenomena is prevalent in any sport where handicaps or ratings are used. When I was in college, I played some competitive chess, and when someone started getting really good, the goal was always to try to get into as many big tournaments as possible because it would take 2-4 months before your results would show up in your official US Chess Federation rating. Hence, you could beat any of the other players in your class (assuming they were honest or not rising quickly, too). It isn't "sandbagging" per se, but it is taking advantage of the system. It is definitely possible in golf, too, where someone does put in a lot of practice time or just has that "a-ha!" moment when things start clicking, but it is a shame all too often it is someone turning in poor scorecards to sandbag.

I've never played competitive pool, but I know people who do and they complain about the same thing with the pool handicap system. I don't know any competitive darts players, but I am willing to bet there are pretty similar complaints. They are probably everywhere, all the way down to the shuffleboard league at your local senior center.

To "fix" it, I think you'd need to fix the human desire to lie and win things instead of play fair. The really rotten thing is that it only takes 1 or 2 people to get away with it before other people think "well, if they are doing it, I'm going to too, because otherwise it really isn't fair" and it is all downhill from there.
[/quote]

right, I reread my original response and it might sound as though I was saying something contradictory, but I was just trying to put some #'s to it to support the original point which I agree with.

[hef63303]

[quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]
Turn him in to the USGA for violation of his amateur status.

[sdiver68]

[quote name='hef63303' post='1962539' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:38 PM'][quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]
Turn him in to the USGA for violation of his amateur status.
[/quote]

My HCP is 13.1 and I've never shot a round of 18 below 84. However, there is a 9 hole course where I regularly shoot 38-42 practice rounds so those lower my HCP. I often shoot say 40-46 or 39-45 on 18, just can't put 18 holes together. I feel like the worst mid-capper ever.

70? No way!

[Pepperturbo]

When my name is put down to play in a tournament, I accept there will questionable scores posted by some people. For the most part I believe in anomalies verses assuming everyone that beats me is a sandbagger.

Regardless of index, any amateur golfer can swing as much as 10 strokes during 18 holes of play; I've seen it by friends, strangers, and done it myself. Course length and what's par influences outcome. For example when I was playing to a 15, I posted a 77 on a regulation par 72 from 6800yds. What I haven't seen and not sure possible is 14 handi posting a gross 70 on a long regulation par 72 course. Now, posting a 70 on a short 5500-6000yd par 70 is possible.

If a golfer is physically capable, exhibits the ability and been practicing with the intention of lowering his index he can have irregular days where he plays out of his head, unusually low or high. Again, I won’t assume when I get beat by an unusual score it was by a sandbagger. Another belief I have is the majority of golfers do not consciously cheat.

[bendy]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='1967578' date='Sep 23 2009, 05:04 PM']When my name is put down to play in a tournament, I accept there will questionable scores posted by some people. For the most part I believe in anomalies verses assuming everyone that beats me is a sandbagger.

Regardless of index, any amateur golfer can swing as much as 10 strokes during 18 holes of play; I've seen it by friends, strangers, and done it myself. Course length and what's par influences outcome. For example when I was playing to a 15, I posted a 77 on a regulation par 72 from 6800yds. What I haven't seen and not sure possible is 14 handi posting a gross 70 on a long regulation par 72 course. Now, posting a 70 on a short 5500-6000yd par 70 is possible.

If a golfer is physically capable, exhibits the ability and been practicing with the intention of lowering his index he can have irregular days where he plays out of his head, unusually low or high. Again, I won't assume when I get beat by an unusual score it was by a sandbagger. Another belief I have is the majority of golfers do not consciously cheat.[/quote]

I totally agree mate that the course does effect how well a person can play, but our course, the lowest handicap we have is 5! It's a bloody hard course so a 14 is a respectable handicap to begin with, thats not my issue. Its the fact that he hasnt put in a single card all year, beit in a competition or just a supplementary card, thats what frustrates me the most. On someones day, I agree, they may hit maybe 9 or 10 under their handicap. But at our 6800 course, well the best nett score I have seen is 65, from a 25 handicap. It just seems so unfair on everyone else, like me and my partner play in every competition there is so our handicaps are totally true, or as true as we can make them and then we get tossers like this that just want to win.

Another thing that has really hacked me off, is the other guy we played against, he did absolute f*** all in the final, not one hole did he come in on, and he wins £150, and we get nothing. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Pepperturbo]

Presuming the tournament had one, sounds like your tournament handicap chairman didn't do his job. None of the tournaments I've been in would allow someone with that handicap to play without posted scores to support his handicap claim. No support - my club would say he could play but would be put in the championship (scratch) flight. life isn't fair... Have a good one my friend.

[SadTrombone]

[quote name='dlygrisse' post='1962384' date='Sep 20 2009, 05:45 PM']Sand bagger for sure[/quote]
More like d****e bagger...or d**k bagger...or tea bagger.

That's why I refuse to play in handicapped events.

-mini

[steveh1591]

you can generally tell a bandit from a mile off
the most players normally go is about 5 or 6 shots under their handicap, and that really is on a good day

although saying that i did once shoot 8 under my handicap, but that was in a friendly

in a comp with the tees further back and the pins in harder positions, 5 or 6 under is about the maximum i would consider

[mat562]

As long as he had the decency to wear a sombrero and a stick-on hombre moustache I can't see where there's a problem.

[grabthepin]

[quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]

The guy who dveloped the slope system estimates a 14 indexer should beat his handicap by 10 shots 1 in every 37000 rounds. This guy's going better than that, 50% of the time!?

$2000? Cash prizes are supposed to be prohibited and vouchers etc limited to $750? Or was it from a hole-in-one? What's the go here?

[youngwaldo]

14 shooting a gross 70. I don't think so. I have members who are single digits and they play 3-4 times a week and never shoot under par.

You got hosed.

Wk

[matty1802]

I played a competition last week, the handicap limit was 0-16 and got paired up with an 15 handicapper, now i play off 2.4 and played quite well with a gross 72 nett 70, not to bad as it was a very windy day and the course SSS went up to 73. Now this so called 15 handicapper shoots a gross 74 leaving him with a nett 59. As you can imagine he walk away with the 1st place and also nearest the pin on a 219 yard par 3. I had people asking me afterwards about how this guy had played and there was nothing i could really say apart from he is never a 15 handicapper in a million years. I've never seen a 15 handicapper hit a nice consistant baby draw with almost every club and get up and down as many times as he did. Think i might just stick to scratch events!!

[steveh1591]

more clubs need to start doing what my club does
at stourbridge we cant hand in supplementary cards for general play, only in competitions

thus stopping any bandits at the club, which does make it alot fairer, you get a few people who can play lower than their index but dont often in comps due to pressure and they may finally have a good comp and go 5 under or so, but we dont get any crazy scores like nett 60's and 59's

[puttnforthe8]

What needs to be done is that TOURNAMENT scores need to count for triple...this is done in many places in Europe, but not the states.

This eliminates the sandbaggers to once off "banditry".

[rtk90]

[quote name='jontyc' post='1981459' date='Oct 1 2009, 12:37 AM'][quote name='obsessedgolfer' post='1962420' date='Sep 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I know a supposed 14 handicapper 50% of his rounds are in the high 70s on a 74.9/149 course that is 7200 yards long. BTW he won $2000 last week in a handicapped tournament. The handicap system is a joke.[/quote]

The guy who dveloped the slope system estimates a 14 indexer should beat his handicap by 10 shots 1 in every 37000 rounds. This guy's going better than that, 50% of the time!?

$2000? Cash prizes are supposed to be prohibited and vouchers etc limited to $750? Or was it from a hole-in-one? What's the go here?
[/quote]

i think someone made up a story just for the sake of proving a point or something....

[owaisdurrani]

I hate guys like that.