Just a few rules questions

[italianstallion]

quick help if you can.

I've got to do a rules test to play in a junior league. I've answered most of the questions, but a few I had a hard time finding. Any help would be apprciated.

A player hits a bad shot, then hits a provisional. When the group goes to find the first shot, the player refuses to identify his ball. I know you can't do this, but what rule covers the situation?

Which is correct regarding the marking of the position of a players ball? And what rule covers this?
a) He may mark with a tee
b) He may mark with the toe of his putter
c) He may mark it in front of the ball towards the hole

A player may use any club for measuring, true or false? And what rule covers this? I always thought you had to use the club you were going to play the shot with, but then I see pros whipping out the driver to measure, so I'm a little confused.

Finally, if a player asks another for advice, and the other player gives it to him, who gets the penalty? (I think it's both)

Thanks for your time.

[peter3]

A player hits a bad shot, then hits a provisional. When the group goes to find the first shot, the player refuses to identify his ball. I know you can't do this, but what rule covers the situation?

27-2 Provisional Ball

 

If you have access to the decisions, there are a few that discuss this scenario.

 

Which is correct regarding the marking of the position of a players ball? And what rule covers this?

a) He may mark with a tee

b) He may mark with the toe of his putter

c) He may mark it in front of the ball towards the hole

20-1 Lifting and Marking. It says in the note that "The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball." Note that it says should, i.e it is not required and there is no penalty for breaching the recommendation.

 

A player may use any club for measuring, true or false? And what rule covers this? I always thought you had to use the club you were going to play the shot with, but then I see pros whipping out the driver to measure, so I'm a little confused.

Since it doesn't say anywhere what club you should use, you are not prohibited from using any club of your choice. There are some decisions that cover this as well (20/1 f ex).

 

When determining Nearest point of relief, however, the definitions note that "the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there".

 

Finally, if a player asks another for advice, and the other player gives it to him, who gets the penalty? (I think it's both)

8-1 Advice. Both get penalized in this scenario.

[KevCarter]

Decision 27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball

 

 

Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?

 

A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player’s ball.

If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

 

 

The USGA has a great website for looking up rules and decisions:

 

USGA Rules Of Golf

[italianstallion]

Thanks alot you guys. I was looking in my 2006-07 Rule Book, and it doesn't have all the rules on the website, especially the first question. So, I guess that was the issue.

 

Thanks again for your time and work.

[KevCarter]

Please don't takle my response as a cut on you at all. Some people don't know about the rules website, just trying to help...

 

Every time I spend a few minutes helping with a rules question I learn something too. My first instinct was to look under the rule identifying ball and didn't find what I wanted. I knew there had to be something in the decisions on this so I started checking out other rules and found it under rule 27 lost or OB. Sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper, but it's amazing, everything you can think of will be there. The more time we spend looking for things in the books the more we learn. Good rules people don't necessarily have to know the books cold, you just need to learn where to look.

 

Have a great day. I hope you did well on your test! :golfer:

 

Kevin

[croweadam]

This is slightly off the mark, but I play with a guy who is a stickler for the rules. He will pull out the rule book and argue at a moments notice. This used to annoy me to the point of not wanting to play with him. Then he asked me one day "if you are not playing by the rules, what is the point of getting better?" Now, if I am not slowing up my group our any around me, I do my best to follow the rules to the letter of the law. I really have more fun doing it. My scores have on occasion gone up, but it is fun to know that when you finish no one can argue with the score you post.

[italianstallion]

Please don't takle my response as a cut on you at all. Some people don't know about the rules website, just trying to help...

 

Every time I spend a few minutes helping with a rules question I learn something too. My first instinct was to look under the rule identifying ball and didn't find what I wanted. I knew there had to be something in the decisions on this so I started checking out other rules and found it under rule 27 lost or OB. Sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper, but it's amazing, everything you can think of will be there. The more time we spend looking for things in the books the more we learn. Good rules people don't necessarily have to know the books cold, you just need to learn where to look.

 

Have a great day. I hope you did well on your test! :golfer:

 

Kevin

 

No problem at all. I thought everything was in the book, so I didn't bother looking at the web. Thanks again for all the help.

 

Sorry to the mods for putting this in the worng section!

[Damo75]

A player hits a bad shot, then hits a provisional. When the group goes to find the first shot, the player refuses to identify his ball. I know you can't do this, but what rule covers the situation?

 

With this one, I was of the opinion that a player can declare a ball lost and play another ball any time he likes, even if it was in the fairway. For instance if you shank your tee shot on a par 3 into the bushes, then hit another from the tee and hole it, you can declare the first ball lost and not even look for it. I don't think other players have the right to go looking for your ball if you've declared it lost.

 

I might be wrong - are there any other takes on this?

[KevCarter]

A player hits a bad shot, then hits a provisional. When the group goes to find the first shot, the player refuses to identify his ball. I know you can't do this, but what rule covers the situation?

 

With this one, I was of the opinion that a player can declare a ball lost and play another ball any time he likes, even if it was in the fairway. For instance if you shank your tee shot on a par 3 into the bushes, then hit another from the tee and hole it, you can declare the first ball lost and not even look for it. I don't think other players have the right to go looking for your ball if you've declared it lost.

 

I might be wrong - are there any other takes on this?

 

Hi Damo75,

 

By definition of a lost ball, there is no such thing as "declaring" a ball lost:

 

Lost Ball ?A ball is deemed “lost’’ if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or ?b. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or?c. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

 

 

Decision 27/16 Ball Declared Lost Is Found Before Another Ball Put into Play

 

Q. A player searched for his ball for two minutes, declared it lost and started back to play another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. Before he put another ball into play, his original ball was found within the five-minute period allowed for search. What is the ruling?

 

A. A player cannot render a ball lost by a declaration — see Definition of “Lost Ball.” The original ball remained in play — see Definition of “Ball in Play.”

 

 

Kevin

[Damo75]

A player hits a bad shot, then hits a provisional. When the group goes to find the first shot, the player refuses to identify his ball. I know you can't do this, but what rule covers the situation?

 

With this one, I was of the opinion that a player can declare a ball lost and play another ball any time he likes, even if it was in the fairway. For instance if you shank your tee shot on a par 3 into the bushes, then hit another from the tee and hole it, you can declare the first ball lost and not even look for it. I don't think other players have the right to go looking for your ball if you've declared it lost.

 

I might be wrong - are there any other takes on this?

 

Hi Damo75,

 

By definition of a lost ball, there is no such thing as "declaring" a ball lost:

 

Lost Ball ?A ball is deemed “lost’’ if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or ?b. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or?c. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

 

 

Decision 27/16 Ball Declared Lost Is Found Before Another Ball Put into Play

 

Q. A player searched for his ball for two minutes, declared it lost and started back to play another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. Before he put another ball into play, his original ball was found within the five-minute period allowed for search. What is the ruling?

 

A. A player cannot render a ball lost by a declaration — see Definition of “Lost Ball.” The original ball remained in play — see Definition of “Ball in Play.”

 

 

Kevin

 

Thanks Kevin. That's all as I understood it, but back to the original part, if the player doesn't go and look for (and therefore identify) his first 'lost' ball and continues on with the intent of using the 2nd ball he's put in play, then he can just continue to play the 2nd ball, no questions asked. I don't think the other players in the group can go and find it for him and insist he play it.

[Ty_Webb]

Thanks Kevin. That's all as I understood it, but back to the original part, if the player doesn't go and look for (and therefore identify) his first 'lost' ball and continues on with the intent of using the 2nd ball he's put in play, then he can just continue to play the 2nd ball, no questions asked. I don't think the other players in the group can go and find it for him and insist he play it.

 

The player can ask his playing partners not to look, but can't stop them. If they look and find it, then he has to play it unless he's already played the other ball not as a provisional. If you consider the situation in matchplay where a player hits his ball into some trees. He knows that the area inside is clear and his ball will be findable, but also knows that his only option will be to hit another. If he plays a provisional, then he's effectively getting two goes at the shot and his opponent would be within his rights to go and find the ball and make him play that one, which would mean going back to the tee. Unfair advantage I'd say. Maybe an extreme example, but them's the rules.

[KevCarter]

One of my favorite decisions under this rule. This question always comes up at rules workshops. Match play. A player on a par three hits it deep into the woods. Announces his intent to hit a provisional. Knocks the provisional into the hole. Can his opponent require the player to search for the original ball? Can the opponent take 5 minutes to search for the original ball? The answer: RUN!

 

Desision 27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play

 

Q. At a short hole, A’s tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A’s opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

 

A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

[Damo75]

Well there you go. Thanks guys. :bb:

 

I can only hope I am never faced with this situation then, cause if my playing partner/s went and found my ball after I'd told them not to and this was the result, I'd be pi$$ed... :) :ok:

[cleatsupkeep]

That is what happened in the BBIV right? When DD came back, the ball was in the bushes, they declared it "lost", and stuck a FW by the flag.

 

However, the European team found the first ball, and DD threw a fit.

 

Same situation, right? Opponents can find the ball and make their opponent play it.