Course Rating needs to be updated!

[stevestrike]

I apologize if this is the wrong forum, but I think it kind of applies to "rules".

 

Bottom line is I am asking if there is any way to get a course "reviewed" for the rating given to it by the USGA. This course recently put in some new water hazards and drainage ditches that are quite difficult to navigate. That, and I think they may have 'fudged' some of the hole lengths.

 

While standing on the tee box, a straight par 4 that is listed on the card as 452, only shows up as 370 on the GPS. More than 75 yards off?

 

Today, I looked at the course on Google maps, and I think I found out why the big discrepancy. It looks like there used to be a tee box behind where the current tee box is. It is so overgrown with trees, shrubs, and weeds, we never even knew it was there. But you can make something out from the aerial view, and measuring from here, the yardage looks like it would be correct.

 

In any case, there are discrepancies like this all over the course. Holes on the card are 25, 50, even 75 yards off! I can see a little room for error, but not like this, and not on this many holes. I would guess overall that this course is HUNDREDS of yard shy of where they claim to be.

 

I would like to have this course reviewed, as we play it quite often, and I don't feel that it is accurately rated for handicap purposes.

 

Your thoughts?

[Pepperturbo]

A while back I called the rating leadership about this very issue regarding a private course. I felt it was underrated. I explained I consistently post much lower scores on far more difficult and longer courses. After playing it a number of times, it seemed way more difficult then is low rating. I was told in a clandestine matter of fact manner it's rated correctly and nothing could be done.

Time passed and I found myself playing that course again, only this time with the head pro. During a conversation I said the course seems to play more difficult. He let it slip the course rating had been changed a few times. The last change it went backward to a lower rating. Turned out club leadership felt teams had a better chance at winning against opposing teams that come from more difficult club courses; partially penalizing those low index golfers.

I shared that so you see there are more influences then common sense. Unless course management feels like you, nothing will change

[stevestrike]

That is interesting. This situation is the opposite though, I feel like they are overrated--both in difficulty and the length they claim for their holes.

Who would be the "rating leadership" be? Someone who works for the course, or is there a governing body (USGA?) that determines these kind of things.

[rahatbmc]

Check out the link to the USGA site:

[url="http://http://www.usga.org/handicapping/course_ratings/ratings_primer/Course-Rating-Primer/"]USGA RATING PRIMER[/url]

The USGA recommends courses be rated every 10 years. In my area, Philadelphia, we are on a 5-7 year cycle. We will also re-rate if the course has made material changes such as building new tees or adding or removing hazards and bunkers

[stevestrike]

OK, so I see this line: "To schedule a course rating, the club representative needs to contact its authorized golf association."

Obviously I am not a club representative, and I don't know who the authorized golf association would be. Is there a ratings police I can call?

[mark m]

From what I know ratatbmc has it right......the golf association in your area does the ratings.....every course should be rerated every 10 years but some associations do it quicker than that...

Also: some associations charge for rating a course where for others it is included in your annual dues.....just a guess, but maybe they don't want to pay to have it rerated and are willing to wait until their turn comes around?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2043942' date='Nov 3 2009, 07:13 PM']That is interesting. This situation is the opposite though, I feel like they are overrated--both in difficulty and the length they claim for their holes.

Who would be the "rating leadership" be? Someone who works for the course, or is there a governing body (USGA?) that determines these kind of things.[/quote]

Course 75.3 rating and 139 slope is different then "hole" difficulty ranking found on the score card. If your talking about the latter, I am not sure who determines what hole is #2, #5, etc., on the score card. Best guess is your state golf association.

[mark m]

Stevestrike:

A couple of other points regarding your post.

1. There is a chart in section 5 of the USGA Handicap Manual "men's ratings from unrated tees"
[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/"]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-Sy...Manual/Rule-05/[/url]

Use the slide bar in the middle and you'll see it when you scan down to towards the end.

Use that next time to determine the proper rating when posting your score. Otherwise your scoring record and your handicap index will be inaccurate.

2. It's a shame that this course isn't on top of things like they should be. You could mention it in a nice way to the pro - but I bet they already know it. (Sometimes courses like the prestige that a higher rating can bring but don't follow through.)

I wouldn't push it too far. Just enjoy your round. Pace the yardage difference on the tee boxes. Use the chart and post your score correctly.

Good Luck,
Mark

[phil75070]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2044131' date='Nov 3 2009, 07:38 PM']OK, so I see this line: "To schedule a course rating, the club representative needs to contact its authorized golf association."

Obviously I am not a club representative, and I don't know who the authorized golf association would be. Is there a ratings police I can call?[/quote]

In most locations that would be the State golf association, so in Houston, the Texas Golf Association. From the TGA site under services:

"USGA Licensed Course, Slope and Pace of Play ratings. The TGA is one of only two entities approved by the USGA to issue ratings for Texas golf courses. The TGA tournament staff also can mark or recommend course marking. "

I believe the Women's Texas Golf Association may be the other.

[rahatbmc]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='2044185' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:57 PM']Course 75.3 rating and 139 slope is different then "hole" difficulty ranking found on the score card. If your talking about the latter, I am not sure who determines what hole is #2, #5, etc., on the score card. Best guess is your state golf association.[/quote]

The USGA has a recommended procedure for determining the handicap holes, but many clubs set the handicaps based on the absolute difficulty of holes, not the differential.

[phil75070]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' post='2044185' date='Nov 3 2009, 07:57 PM']I am not sure who determines what hole is #2, #5, etc., on the score card. Best guess is your state golf association.[/quote]

That can be done a number of ways.
1) Sometimes the odd holes are on the front and the even are on the back and the ranking is based pretty much on yardage especially if a course doen't want to do numebr 2.
2) A club can keep a history of hole-by-hole scores to determine the difficulty of each hole. Or
3) a handicap committee at the club can make the determination following USGA guidelines. See section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual.

[rahatbmc]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2044131' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:38 PM']OK, so I see this line: "To schedule a course rating, the club representative needs to contact its authorized golf association."

Obviously I am not a club representative, and I don't know who the authorized golf association would be. Is there a ratings police I can call?[/quote]

I would start here:

[b]Houston Golf Association[/b]
5810 Wilson Road, Suite 112
Humble, TX 77396
(281) 454-7000 Fax: (281) 454-7070
[[email protected]][email protected][/email]
Steve Timms, Executive Director

[stevestrike]

Thanks guys, great info here. I am not talking about the difficulty of one specific hole (like the scorecard would show), but that the course rating overall is off due to the missing yardage. This course likes to advertise how long they are, but I think in truth they are no where near that long.

Additionally, I know they've brought water into play on several holes, and that might change the rating slightly.

Overall, I just have an issue with how long they claim the course is, and I think it should be rated for how short it actually plays.

[golfingchuck]

[quote name='rahatbmc' post='2044258' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:28 PM'][quote name='stevestrike' post='2044131' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:38 PM']OK, so I see this line: "To schedule a course rating, the club representative needs to contact its authorized golf association."

Obviously I am not a club representative, and I don't know who the authorized golf association would be. Is there a ratings police I can call?[/quote]

I would start here:

[b]Houston Golf Association[/b]
5810 Wilson Road, Suite 112
Humble, TX 77396
(281) 454-7000 Fax: (281) 454-7070
[[email protected]][email protected][/email]
Steve Timms, Executive Director
[/quote]

That should be by Redstone! I used to live 5 minutes from there. Never new that is where the HGA was

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2044269' date='Nov 3 2009, 09:32 PM']Thanks guys, great info here. I am not talking about the difficulty of one specific hole (like the scorecard would show), but that the course rating overall is off due to the missing yardage. This course likes to advertise how long they are, but I think in truth they are no where near that long.

Additionally, I know they've brought water into play on several holes, and that might change the rating slightly.

Overall, I just have an issue with how long they claim the course is, and I think it should be rated for how short it actually plays.[/quote]

I was on the board of two private clubs. One club had renovations and a number of holes lengthened, which affected the course rating OA. It was our responsibility as club leadership to order re-rating by the association. Its the associations responsibility to schedule rating staff. They affect where yardage plates get positioned. They were so backlogged it took a over a year to be re-rated. Hence we played using earlier ratings.

I've also seen it where some courses never call for re-rating because management thinks changes make it more difficult which was the purpose but publishing new rating could affect play derogatorily. For example, my wife feels the red tee's at one course we frequent doesn't reflect the difficulty compared to it's actual rating from the Red tee's. I don't see it the same because its a difficult course to begin with.

If yardage is added, its the club leaderships responsibility to call for re-rating by the association, not you, guests or members. What motives whether that call happens or not varies; that's what I was trying to say in my earlier post.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2044269' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:32 PM']Thanks guys, great info here. I am not talking about the difficulty of one specific hole (like the scorecard would show), but that the course rating overall is off due to the missing yardage. This course likes to advertise how long they are, but I think in truth they are no where near that long.

Additionally, I know they've brought water into play on several holes, and that might change the rating slightly.

Overall, I just have an issue with how long they claim the course is, and I think it should be rated for how short it actually plays.[/quote]

What course is this at? I would assume either Moody Gardens or Beacon Lakes, as they are the only 2 I know of that have been renovated lately (and I thought you said you live down that way), though I dont recall beacon lakes claiming anything about being a long course.

[stevestrike]

[quote name='bigred90gt' post='2048709' date='Nov 5 2009, 10:13 PM']I dont recall beacon lakes claiming anything about being a long course.[/quote]
I wasn't going to call them out publicly, but here is a line from the front page of their website:
[quote]"Offering the World's longest lighted golf course..."[/quote]

[roll - gybe]

Unfortunately a lot of courses particpate in this monkey business so that their 10 handicaps can win the local tournaments. Their 7s sandbag as 10s. Somehow exclusivity gets them off the hook with the handicap system. (That was a generalization, but I think it is fair)

Another trick is when they host, they move the blue tees back to the black tee boxes and use the ratings for the blues. That way they are playing a harder course, and their 7s win because the real 10s don't hit the ball well enough to play from back there. Since they all play off 10s, the visitors can't win. Furthermore, the higher handicappers don't get enough strokes

I asked a pro about this once and he said, "those tees are blue, therefore they are the blue tees!" Such scamming. So wrong with money on the line.

[larrybud]

[quote name='roll - gybe' post='2049390' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:40 AM']Unfortunately a lot of courses particpate in this monkey business so that their 10 handicaps can win the local tournaments. Their 7s sandbag as 10s. Somehow exclusivity gets them off the hook with the handicap system. (That was a generalization, but I think it is fair)[/quote]

I'm not understanding this. A course does NOT do it's own rating, the state golf association does it. So how could they fudge the numbers to affect their own member's handicaps? Is the state associating getting kickbacks?

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2049186' date='Nov 6 2009, 08:44 AM'][quote name='bigred90gt' post='2048709' date='Nov 5 2009, 10:13 PM']I dont recall beacon lakes claiming anything about being a long course.[/quote]
I wasn't going to call them out publicly, but here is a line from the front page of their website:
[quote]"Offering the World's longest lighted golf course..."[/quote]

[/quote]

Now you have me wondering what hole this is. The only one that rings a bell to me would be #11, with the old tee box being that hill off to the right of #2.

To be fair to them, they are claiming to be the "longest LIGHTED course", which as far as I know, they are. Most lighted courses are par 3 courses.

I havent played there in a couple of months, how is the course? I used to play there every thursday with a buddy (we teed off right before the weekly skins game they used to have) a few years ago. It' a fun little track.

[stevestrike]

You're right, it is hole 11 but the scorecard still shows the old tee boxes even though it plays 75 yards shorter. Also, several other holes are very questionable in the distance they claim.

They may be the longest lighted course, but that isn't the point. I just think they are overrating their yardage.

We still play out there Thursday afternoons as well. The greens are slow as usual, but where else are you going to get 18 in when you tee off after 4PM?

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2051917' date='Nov 7 2009, 09:37 PM']You're right, it is hole 11 but the scorecard still shows the old tee boxes even though it plays 75 yards shorter. Also, several other holes are very questionable in the distance they claim.

They may be the longest lighted course, but that isn't the point. I just think they are overrating their yardage.

We still play out there Thursday afternoons as well. The greens are slow as usual, but where else are you going to get 18 in when you tee off after 4PM?[/quote]

I figured that is the hole you were talking about once you confirmed the course. I havent played out there since I got my GPS, so I havent experienced that yet. I have noticed on that hole that I cannot hit my driver or else it will in the drink short of the hole, even though based on the scorecard yardage it should be over 300 yards to the water.

Hole #1 is a bit of a stretch on score card too. I have hit my 3w just short of the green before, and it shows 345 on the card.

Do they still do the skins game on Thursdays?

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='larrybud' post='2049801' date='Nov 6 2009, 03:26 PM'][quote name='roll - gybe' post='2049390' date='Nov 6 2009, 11:40 AM']Unfortunately a lot of courses particpate in this monkey business so that their 10 handicaps can win the local tournaments. Their 7s sandbag as 10s. Somehow exclusivity gets them off the hook with the handicap system. (That was a generalization, but I think it is fair)[/quote]

I'm not understanding this. A course does NOT do it's own rating, the state golf association does it. So how could they fudge the numbers to affect their own member's handicaps? Is the state associating getting kickbacks?

[/quote]

You could do it a number of ways.

1) Tee positions that are typically different than when the course was rated
2) Changes in course setup (rough/greens, etc)
3) Course changes after the rating

dave

[stevestrike]

[quote name='bigred90gt' post='2052220' date='Nov 8 2009, 03:33 AM']Do they still do the skins game on Thursdays?[/quote]
I've seen them out there on different nights, so I'm not really sure what their schedule is anymore. All I know is that I want to avoid being there while they are.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2052400' date='Nov 8 2009, 09:23 AM'][quote name='bigred90gt' post='2052220' date='Nov 8 2009, 03:33 AM']Do they still do the skins game on Thursdays?[/quote]
I've seen them out there on different nights, so I'm not really sure what their schedule is anymore. All I know is that I want to avoid being there while they are.


[/quote]
No doubt. The only reason we played there on that night was it was the only time my buddy had the opportunity to play.