Elbow to navel

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358832666' post='6274919']
Jim do you ever make it to the east coast?
[/quote][quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358832666' post='6274919']
Jim do you ever make it to the east coast?
[/quote]

I will go anywhere in USA if enough students come together as a group to host me for a golf school. At present, no plans for a public golf school on East Coast on our schedule. Portland, Palm Springs and Oahu, and Singapore next January.

[TheBoomer]

[attachment=1500381:hoganimpact1.jpg]

[attachment=1500383:gwar01_swings.jpg]

[ej002]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1358738521' post='6268123']
I have no idea what this topic is about.
But I did find a pic of Ping10guy with his left elbow very out and high.
I think he is saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor".
[attachment=1498499:strong-golfer.jpg]
[/quote]

Well the good thing is that he has his pants above his naval, ala Hogan... so he has that going for him...


[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
This is right.


Interesting that this topic came up. I think the idea is another way at looking at the Hogan pitch elbow., which we beat to death. Left elbow inline with the navel / right elbow in front of the right hip - its all where you put your brain. Regardless, if you are properly synched, all you need to do is turn. If a player can avoid the overswing (which I personally strugle with), all that needs to happen is the arms falling in front of the body. From there turn. Hard. Tweak other components to fix ball flight, you will be amazed at how consistent you will be. The swing can be as simple as a turn c0ck/set of the wrists and another turn. Less is more guys.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [size=4][b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b][/size]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote][quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [size=4][b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b][/size]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote]

Yes, left elbow to navel is not an accurate description which is why I never use it in my teaching. I strongly prefer literal and accurate descriptions, and almost never use feels described in words as the basis for instruction. But arms to right of mid-line is not a feel but a literal description. Once the student clearly understands the "model" or at least the one part of the model we are working on, ie what must happen with that body part and/or golf club, that is just the starting point. I demonstrate so that they can clearly see what must occur. The next stage is - okay, how do I get my body to do that?

The Arm Swing Illusion material is so shocking that once you see it, it is not at all hard to understand, rather like someone dumping a bucket of ice water over your head. It is very clear - you are either using your upper arms muscles to move the arms or sides of the Triangle across mid-line during Release and Impact, or you are doing nothing with those arms, and they stay where they are. Yes - after impact, the arms do move across mid-line, but from momentum only. Pivot stall or deceleration is not an issue. Now the shoulder girdle can rapidaly un-coil through impact and even post-impact.

You don't have to "make" the arms stay where they are by pressing them into your chest, they stay there because they are doing nothing primarily, but also because of some pec firing, and from lagpressure happening during Transition. Mostly doing nothing. The problem is we have been under the spell of the Illusion for years of playing and watching golf, and the impulse to use the arms for power and/or to help square the face is very strong. Even tour pros succumb to it, especially the leaders on the back nine on Sunday. That is when you see the pivot stalls and the arms disconnecting.

The idea that the golf swing is a "swinging of the arms, to and fro, across the chest and around the body" is the un-questioned premise that is the root cause of so much bad ballstriking. It is deeply held in the subconscious mind of almost every golfer on the planet. Including many advocates of a pivot-driven golf swing. They just want a "controlled" in synch with the pivot independent arm swing. What if there is NO independent arm swing at all - ZERO - in a great golf swing. Would not that be a much, much simpler motion to learn, and once learned, to repeat, especially under pressure? No big timing issues, better balance, more stability.

[ej002]

Jim - good post, except if you tell someone to do NOTHING with their arms they run the risk of them getting stuck behind. Literally wet noodles. There has to be some tension resistance in them to hold their relative position (at least until they get in front of the torso on the downswing). Wouldnt you agree?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358873771' post='6276723']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1358738521' post='6268123']
I have no idea what this topic is about.
But I did find a pic of Ping10guy with his left elbow very out and high.
I think he is saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor".
[attachment=1498499:strong-golfer.jpg]
[/quote]

Well the good thing is that he has his pants above his naval, ala Hogan... so he has that going for him...


[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
This is right.


Interesting that this topic came up. I think the idea is another way at looking at the Hogan pitch elbow., which we beat to death. Left elbow inline with the navel / right elbow in front of the right hip - its all where you put your brain. Regardless, if you are properly synched, all you need to do is turn. If a player can avoid the overswing (which I personally strugle with), all that needs to happen is the arms falling in front of the body. From there turn. Hard. Tweak other components to fix ball flight, you will be amazed at how consistent you will be. The swing can be as simple as a turn c0ck/set of the wrists and another turn. Less is more guys.
[/quote]

Very well said, Ej. Just rememember though that "in front of the body" is often mis-interpreted as in line with the mid-line of the body. Make sure both arms, measured from the lead arm elbow to hand, is to the right of mid-line of the body when the arms complete their "fall". Actually the arms are pulled down back into the chest by forces from the Pivot with just a tiny assist from gravity, but yes - it often feels like a "fall".

Once the arms have been trained properly (to behave themselves and to stop causing trouble, rather like breaking and taming a wild mustang) then the swing does indeed become just a "turn/wrist c0ck", a tiny lateral shift to front leg, and then a "turn/wrist c0ck release". Everything becomes much, much simpler and easier to execute.

[ej002]

Jim - you may not want to give away your secrets on the board, but would you care to share some of your drills or thoughts you use to help tame the "wild mustangs?"

Much as been said about the use of a heavy driver - this would go hand in hand with Tee's advice on teaching a young one to use his body with heavier adult clubs.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote]

Maybe this is best way to answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUr78EiyJE

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358874065' post='6276747']
Jim - good post, except if you tell someone to do NOTHING with their arms they run the risk of them getting stuck behind. Literally wet noodles. There has to be some tension resistance in them to hold their relative position (at least until they get in front of the torso on the downswing). Wouldnt you agree?
[/quote]

Yes, remember I am just describing in general terms the basic theory here, not all the detailed "how do you actually do it". Mainly because I learned years ago that it almost never results in clarity in the mind of the forum reader, often the reverse, and also I am not giving away for free information that forms the heart of my livelhood and that it took over 45 years of research and struggle to discover.

I will say that you are 100% correct, the arms must have "structure" to behave properly and to "do nothing". I call this the Three Arm Pressures, three distint things you do with the arm muscles that are extremely subtle, and not "active" at all. That gives structure to the Triangle. I am referring specifically to the upper arms "swinging" from the shoulder sockets laterally across the chest, THAT is what you should not do, ie inhibit that motion.

I have some footage on my DVR from last summer of Tiger doing a drill after a bad shot, basically a waist to waist swing, in which you can clearly see that his arms never move independently on the forward swing, perfect Triangle, with shoulder girdle and both arms moving as a unit, holding the waist high finish, and still both arms well right of mid-line. Beautiful to see...

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358874488' post='6276771']
Jim - you may not want to give away your secrets on the board, but would you care to share some of your drills or thoughts you use to help tame the "wild mustangs?"

Much as been said about the use of a heavy driver - this would go hand in hand with Tee's advice on teaching a young one to use his body with heavier adult clubs.
[/quote]

Heavy clubs certainly can help, as they activate the bigger muscles of the Pivot, and tame the smaller muscles. Throwing 5-10lb medicine balls using your Core. I described once before in this forum a drill you can use that is actually a Pilates exercise, done on their Reformer machine.

Once can approach it as either learning to use the Core to move the arms/Triangle, or one can learn to inhibit the independent arm motion. Obviously you need to do both things, but pick one as your starting point.

A good starting drill is short to medium distance chip shots with the arms just a tiny bit to the right of mid-line at Address. See if you can gently press the triceps to the pecs at the start and then ONLY use your Pivot during the stroke. Hold your Finish and check to see if both arms are still in the same position a little to the right of mid-line. Most golfers will be shocked to discover that the arms are now well to the left of mid-line at the Finish.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358874757' post='6276799']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Tee - that was a very clear explanation, well done.

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote]

Maybe this is best way to answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUr78EiyJE
[/quote]

[airjammer]

Tee

To me with your right arm "behind the shaft" is asking to be stuck in the downswing. Why am I wrong please?

[TheBoomer]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358874757' post='6276799']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote]

Maybe this is best way to answer

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUr78EiyJE[/media]
[/quote]

Kind of what was explained in the above video !!


http://youtu.be/rQ3iuhfJaEI

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358874065' post='6276747']
Jim - good post, except if you tell someone to do NOTHING with their arms they run the risk of them getting stuck behind. Literally wet noodles. There has to be some tension resistance in them to hold their relative position (at least until they get in front of the torso on the downswing). Wouldnt you agree?
[/quote]

Exactly right, and some actually do the "wet noodles" in an attempt to get more arm/shaft lag, but the snag is loss of arm speed, and a waste of the shoulder power - kind of like a slipping clutch. This will cause the player to add arm effort to try to catch up. The answer is to use the right amount of rotator cuff tension in order to main the triangle integrity.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358873861' post='6276731']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [size=4][b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b][/size]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote][quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [size=4][b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b][/size]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote]

Yes, left elbow to navel is not an accurate description which is why I never use it in my teaching. I strongly prefer literal and accurate descriptions, and almost never use feels described in words as the basis for instruction. But arms to right of mid-line is not a feel but a literal description. Once the student clearly understands the "model" or at least the one part of the model we are working on, ie what must happen with that body part and/or golf club, that is just the starting point. I demonstrate so that they can clearly see what must occur. The next stage is - okay, how do I get my body to do that?

The Arm Swing Illusion material is so shocking that once you see it, it is not at all hard to understand, rather like someone dumping a bucket of ice water over your head. It is very clear - you are either using your upper arms muscles to move the arms or sides of the Triangle across mid-line during Release and Impact, or you are doing nothing with those arms, and they stay where they are. Yes - after impact, the arms do move across mid-line, but from momentum only. Pivot stall or deceleration is not an issue. Now the shoulder girdle can rapidaly un-coil through impact and even post-impact.

You don't have to "make" the arms stay where they are by pressing them into your chest, they stay there because they are doing nothing primarily, but also because of some pec firing, and from lagpressure happening during Transition. Mostly doing nothing. The problem is we have been under the spell of the Illusion for years of playing and watching golf, and the impulse to use the arms for power and/or to help square the face is very strong. Even tour pros succumb to it, especially the leaders on the back nine on Sunday. That is when you see the pivot stalls and the arms disconnecting.

The idea that the golf swing is a "swinging of the arms, to and fro, across the chest and around the body" is the un-questioned premise that is the root cause of so much bad ballstriking. It is deeply held in the subconscious mind of almost every golfer on the planet. Including many advocates of a pivot-driven golf swing. They just want a "controlled" in synch with the pivot independent arm swing. What if there is NO independent arm swing at all - ZERO - in a great golf swing. Would not that be a much, much simpler motion to learn, and once learned, to repeat, especially under pressure? No big timing issues, better balance, more stability.
[/quote]

Man I cant wait for this book on arm swing illusion.

But after reading what ss said...and you agreed? The upper left arm/shoulder stays in internal rotation from the top? Wow thats big. Man I just lost like 10 dumb points when I read that.

So since Im a guy who had almost no armswing and improper connection then I would "feel" like my left arm is turning in different directions? Forearm/wrist ( counter-clockwise but in proper sequence) for release, and upper left arm/shoulder does nothing until after impact and would feel like it was going the other way (cw)?

Sounds like TeeAce and the opposite circles concept referred to the wrong end of the arm...

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358879989' post='6277291']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358874065' post='6276747']
Jim - good post, except if you tell someone to do NOTHING with their arms they run the risk of them getting stuck behind. Literally wet noodles. There has to be some tension resistance in them to hold their relative position (at least until they get in front of the torso on the downswing). Wouldnt you agree?
[/quote]

Exactly right, and some actually do the "wet noodles" in an attempt to get more arm/shaft lag, but the snag is loss of arm speed, and a waste of the shoulder power - kind of like a slipping clutch. This will cause the player to add arm effort to try to catch up. The answer is to use the right amount of rotator cuff tension in order to main the triangle integrity.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree completely. I really like your "slipping clutch" analogy, that is exactly what it is like. And yes, if the arms are too soft and lacking in structure, they sense the power leak, and will then move independently to compensate for that power leak, and if they move and the shoulder girdle does not stall out, then you will hit a big pull (assuming face angle stays square to path, of course). Almost always - for the better player - the shoulder girdle will stall, and sometimes you can even hit the ball straight and reasonably long with that move, which of course only reinforces it, makes one think you hit a good shot when in reality there was lot of luck and timing in play. One reason this game is so darn difficult, we think we are making progress when are really just spinning in circles.

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358875539' post='6276881']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358874757' post='6276799']
[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358866431' post='6276007']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Tee - that was a very clear explanation, well done.

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?
[/quote]

Maybe this is best way to answer

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBUr78EiyJE[/media]
[/quote]
[/quote]
Tee...nice video, and I'm a fan.... but for the record, you demonstarted left arm abduction with EXTERNAL rotation of left shoulder and no left scapula retraction....Yes, its all about sequencing and getting the precision of vocabulary, imo. Jim, I guess all I can say is yeah, thanks for the carrot shred...at your fruit stand the carrot costs $$$. I get it. Good stuff, though.

[tylerdurden]

This is turning out to be a very good thread.

[Jim Waldron]

Ping -
The left upper arm internal rotation occurs during Transition. It is hard at this point to know if it stays there until just after impact or if it rotates externally just before and during impact. No way to tell from studying photos and videos. Maybe Tee knows the answer. My guess is that it probably depends on the pro golfer you are studying and what kind of shot shape they prefer to hit.

the internal rotation on Transition is just one way to do it. I have found in over 20 years of teaching that this move requires above average athletic ability to learn to do correctly and to the level of dominant habit. I don't see Stricker or O'Meara or Cook doing it and they all hit it great. I think to hit it as purely as possible and as long as possible, then it is a requrement. But - for average golfers, it is far easier to achieve just a little bit of shaft flattening from spine tilt. Doing anytrhing with the arms/wrists/hands on Transition for averge golfers tends to switch on their independent arm circuit and then it stays "on" during the rest of the downswing and ruins the shot

In any case Ping, I think it is much more important to not move the upper left arm laterally (abduction) to your left than to be concerned with internal rotation. And many of my students do feel like the upper left arm "is going the other way" as you stated. Doing Nothing with the upper arms is such a radical concept that most of my students have trouble just getting their head around the concept when we first show them the Arm Swing Illusion material in our Great Shot! golf school.

Hope that clears things up a bit, this stuff is very difficult to explain/discuss in words.

[tylerdurden]

See 0:19 - maybe this is why tiger was/is struggling. Completely violates what Jim and Tee are saying (in terms of Tiger's intent). This messed me up too.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsiOQxtFiw&playnext=1&list=PL512315DE417161C5&feature=results_video"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsiOQxtFiw&playnext=1&list=PL512315DE417161C5&feature=results_video[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358881911' post='6277509']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358879989' post='6277291']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358874065' post='6276747']
Jim - good post, except if you tell someone to do NOTHING with their arms they run the risk of them getting stuck behind. Literally wet noodles. There has to be some tension resistance in them to hold their relative position (at least until they get in front of the torso on the downswing). Wouldnt you agree?
[/quote]

Exactly right, and some actually do the "wet noodles" in an attempt to get more arm/shaft lag, but the snag is loss of arm speed, and a waste of the shoulder power - kind of like a slipping clutch. This will cause the player to add arm effort to try to catch up. The answer is to use the right amount of rotator cuff tension in order to main the triangle integrity.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree completely. I really like your "slipping clutch" analogy, that is exactly what it is like. And yes, if the arms are too soft and lacking in structure, they sense the power leak, and will then move independently to compensate for that power leak, and if they move and the shoulder girdle does not stall out, then you will hit a big pull (assuming face angle stays square to path, of course). Almost always - for the better player - the shoulder girdle will stall, and sometimes you can even hit the ball straight and reasonably long with that move, which of course only reinforces it, makes one think you hit a good shot when in reality there was lot of luck and timing in play. One reason this game is so darn difficult, we think we are making progress when are really just spinning in circles.
[/quote]

Damn Jim.. there has been more relevant information only at this thread than in 100 standard level well selling golf books

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358882971' post='6277629']
See 0:19 - maybe this is why tiger was/is struggling. Completely violates what Jim and Tee are saying (in terms of Tiger's intent). This messed me up too.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsiOQxtFiw&playnext=1&list=PL512315DE417161C5&feature=results_video"]https://www.youtube....e=results_video[/url]
[/quote]
TD: There is the wrong way to "shift out" and then there is the proper way-- with lateral bend...Tiger failed to shift out (and left arm was too "in" for his pivot style)...he later learned to shift out by getting steep with the shaft, but lacking lateral bend and transverse adduction with the right arm...Foley has not got it all figured out yet, or Tiger is not listening, imo. But he is getting closer....the "hybrid" (SnT style) centered pivot doesnt match the rest of his swing and his COGs are out of whack on the dwonswing....hence the occassional drop kick...LOL

[Jim Waldron]

Site - not a "carrot shred" but rather more like a small piece of very rare, very expensive Durian fruit. And even if I won the lottery and retired, i would not post very detailed technical information, because the odds are very strong that 90% of the folks reading this would get a totally wrong understanding, and might actually hurt their golf swings. I have taken my own golf version of the Hippocratic Oath - first do no harm. Big Picture concepts are much more effective than getting bogged down in technical details, especially for average golfers.

Second, that kind of technical information inevitably invites others to engage in a heated debate about the most intricate and detailed concepts, and I have no interest and usually no time to engage in that kind of debate. It is rarely productive for anyone.

But I appreciate your support and feedback, as always.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358883588' post='6277687']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358882971' post='6277629']
See 0:19 - maybe this is why tiger was/is struggling. Completely violates what Jim and Tee are saying (in terms of Tiger's intent). This messed me up too.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsiOQxtFiw&playnext=1&list=PL512315DE417161C5&feature=results_video"]https://www.youtube....e=results_video[/url]
[/quote]
TD: There is the wrong way to "shift out" and then there is the proper way-- with lateral bend...Tiger failed to shift out (and left arm was too "in" for his pivot style)...he later learned to shift out by getting steep with the shaft, but lacking lateral bend and transverse adduction with the right arm...Foley has not got it all figured out yet, or Tiger is not listening, imo. But he is getting closer....the "hybrid" (SnT style) centered pivot doesnt match the rest of his swing and his COGs are out of whack on the dwonswing....hence the occassional drop kick...LOL
[/quote]

He'd done that more than once in a tourney? Haha poor dude.

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358883611' post='6277691']
Site - not a "carrot shred" but rather more like a small piece of very rare, very expensive Durian fruit. And even if I won the lottery and retired, i would not post very detailed technical information, because the odds are very strong that 90% of the folks reading this would get a totally wrong understanding, and might actually hurt their golf swings. I have taken my own golf version of the Hippocratic Oath - first do no harm. Big Picture concepts are much more effective than getting bogged down in technical details, especially for average golfers.

Second, that kind of technical information inevitably invites others to engage in a heated debate about the most intricate and detailed concepts, and I have no interest and usually no time to engage in that kind of debate. It is rarely productive for anyone.

But I appreciate your support and feedback, as always.
[/quote]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358883611' post='6277691']
Site - not a "carrot shred" but rather more like a small piece of very rare, very expensive Durian fruit. And even if I won the lottery and retired, i would not post very detailed technical information, because the odds are very strong that 90% of the folks reading this would get a totally wrong understanding, and might actually hurt their golf swings. I have taken my own golf version of the Hippocratic Oath - first do no harm. Big Picture concepts are much more effective than getting bogged down in technical details, especially for average golfers.

Second, that kind of technical information inevitably invites others to engage in a heated debate about the most intricate and detailed concepts, and I have no interest and usually no time to engage in that kind of debate. It is rarely productive for anyone.

But I appreciate your support and feedback, as always.
[/quote]

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358883588' post='6277687']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358882971' post='6277629']
See 0:19 - maybe this is why tiger was/is struggling. Completely violates what Jim and Tee are saying (in terms of Tiger's intent). This messed me up too.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsiOQxtFiw&playnext=1&list=PL512315DE417161C5&feature=results_video"]https://www.youtube....e=results_video[/url]
[/quote]
TD: There is the wrong way to "shift out" and then there is the proper way-- with lateral bend...Tiger failed to shift out (and left arm was too "in" for his pivot style)...he later learned to shift out by getting steep with the shaft, but lacking lateral bend and transverse adduction with the right arm...Foley has not got it all figured out yet, or Tiger is not listening, imo. But he is getting closer....the "hybrid" (SnT style) centered pivot doesnt match the rest of his swing and his COGs are out of whack on the dwonswing....hence the occassional drop kick...LOL
[/quote]

Thanks. Can you clarify a little though? What is shift out? is it hip extension? Transverse adduction?

I agree Tiger's pivot doesn't match. His left foot is still all over the place with longer clubs.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358882971' post='6277629']
See 0:19 - maybe this is why tiger was/is struggling. Completely violates what Jim and Tee are saying (in terms of Tiger's intent). This messed me up too.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsiOQxtFiw&playnext=1&list=PL512315DE417161C5&feature=results_video"]https://www.youtube....e=results_video[/url]
[/quote]

I think Site's explanation makes a lot of sense. I try not to "guess" why a tour pro/coach would be doing a particular drill. So hard to know, it would be great if Sean could chime in and tell us all here, but knowing Tiger's very understandable desire for secrecy, that ain't gonna happen. Looks like he kept his arms to the right of mid-line though until well after "impact" in that drill, the "across" that Frank was talking about was not his chest, but rather the target line, ie out to in path of clubhead.

One of the primary causes of the Arm Swing Illusion is what I call Fixed Line of Sight, the fact that our head is kept steady until after impact, we "see" our arms going across our chest, when for the good ballstriker who keeps his arms to right of mid-line, what is really happening is that the hands/lower arms are moving "across" his line of sight down to the ball. There is only one other common daily activity we all engage in where our head/face/eyes and line of sight are NOT directly facing the same direction as our chest, and that is when you swivel your head around when backing up your car. If your seat belit is on, the shoulder starp kind of keeps your chest facing forward. That is a functional equivalent to what happens in a good golf swing. Your head stays steady and your chest rotates underneath that steady head, and so it "looks like" your hands/arms go across your chest and behind your body a little bit. Of course, if you are reasonably flexible and under the influence of the Illusion, that is exactly what happens. Now you are "stuck". But for the good player I am talking about, who keeps the arms/club "in front" of his chest but to the right of mid-line, the Fixed Line of Sight makes it look to him, that his hands/arms/club are "swinging" behind his body on the backswing and then reversing course on the forward swing. Even though his arms are not in fact doing that move, until well after imapct.

Our face/eyes are not aligned with our chest/mid-line in a good golf swing, except for Address. After the swing starts, the chest is always moving under that steady head/face/eyes.

So the correct statement would be "The good ballstriker moves his hands/arms across his line of sight during release and through impact - not across his chest/mid-line". That is a Big, Big Difference!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1358884169' post='6277755']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358883611' post='6277691']
Site - not a "carrot shred" but rather more like a small piece of very rare, very expensive Durian fruit. And even if I won the lottery and retired, i would not post very detailed technical information, because the odds are very strong that 90% of the folks reading this would get a totally wrong understanding, and might actually hurt their golf swings. I have taken my own golf version of the Hippocratic Oath - first do no harm. Big Picture concepts are much more effective than getting bogged down in technical details, especially for average golfers.

Second, that kind of technical information inevitably invites others to engage in a heated debate about the most intricate and detailed concepts, and I have no interest and usually no time to engage in that kind of debate. It is rarely productive for anyone.

But I appreciate your support and feedback, as always.
[/quote]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358883611' post='6277691']
Site - not a "carrot shred" but rather more like a small piece of very rare, very expensive Durian fruit. And even if I won the lottery and retired, i would not post very detailed technical information, because the odds are very strong that 90% of the folks reading this would get a totally wrong understanding, and might actually hurt their golf swings. I have taken my own golf version of the Hippocratic Oath - first do no harm. Big Picture concepts are much more effective than getting bogged down in technical details, especially for average golfers.

Second, that kind of technical information inevitably invites others to engage in a heated debate about the most intricate and detailed concepts, and I have no interest and usually no time to engage in that kind of debate. It is rarely productive for anyone.

But I appreciate your support and feedback, as always.
[/quote]

[/quote]

That is really very funny, and quite amazingly quick with those photos on your part. Too bad we don't have Smellavision on the Web, the entire forum would have just left the room!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358883367' post='6277663']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358881911' post='6277509']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358879989' post='6277291']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358874065' post='6276747']
Jim - good post, except if you tell someone to do NOTHING with their arms they run the risk of them getting stuck behind. Literally wet noodles. There has to be some tension resistance in them to hold their relative position (at least until they get in front of the torso on the downswing). Wouldnt you agree?
[/quote]

Exactly right, and some actually do the "wet noodles" in an attempt to get more arm/shaft lag, but the snag is loss of arm speed, and a waste of the shoulder power - kind of like a slipping clutch. This will cause the player to add arm effort to try to catch up. The answer is to use the right amount of rotator cuff tension in order to main the triangle integrity.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree completely. I really like your "slipping clutch" analogy, that is exactly what it is like. And yes, if the arms are too soft and lacking in structure, they sense the power leak, and will then move independently to compensate for that power leak, and if they move and the shoulder girdle does not stall out, then you will hit a big pull (assuming face angle stays square to path, of course). Almost always - for the better player - the shoulder girdle will stall, and sometimes you can even hit the ball straight and reasonably long with that move, which of course only reinforces it, makes one think you hit a good shot when in reality there was lot of luck and timing in play. One reason this game is so darn difficult, we think we are making progress when are really just spinning in circles.
[/quote]

Damn Jim.. there has been more relevant information only at this thread than in 100 standard level well selling golf books
[/quote]

Yes, this is indeed a very interesting thread. I only hope the average person out there reading it is starting to "get it" at least a little bit. I have taught the Arm Swing Illusion material in my golf schools since 1996, to several thousand students, and the feedback we get from almost every graduate is that this info was the most influential in helping them to improve their ballstriking. I certainly do not believe in Magic Moves or Quick Fixes or Secrets, the golf swing is far too complex for any such nonsense, and if your grip, aim and setup are awful, this info will not help you very much. But it does seem to be the key that unravels a lot of the mystery of the moving body parts in the 3D golf swing jigsaw puzzle.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358882898' post='6277619']
Ping -
The left upper arm internal rotation occurs during Transition. It is hard at this point to know if it stays there until just after impact or if it rotates externally just before and during impact. No way to tell from studying photos and videos. Maybe Tee knows the answer. My guess is that it probably depends on the pro golfer you are studying and what kind of shot shape they prefer to hit.

the internal rotation on Transition is just one way to do it. I have found in over 20 years of teaching that this move requires above average athletic ability to learn to do correctly and to the level of dominant habit. I don't see Stricker or O'Meara or Cook doing it and they all hit it great. I think to hit it as purely as possible and as long as possible, then it is a requrement. But - for average golfers, it is far easier to achieve just a little bit of shaft flattening from spine tilt. Doing anytrhing with the arms/wrists/hands on Transition for averge golfers tends to switch on their independent arm circuit and then it stays "on" during the rest of the downswing and ruins the shot

In any case Ping, I think it is much more important to not move the upper left arm laterally (abduction) to your left than to be concerned with internal rotation. And many of my students do feel like the upper left arm "is going the other way" as you stated. Doing Nothing with the upper arms is such a radical concept that most of my students have trouble just getting their head around the concept when we first show them the Arm Swing Illusion material in our Great Shot! golf school.

Hope that clears things up a bit, this stuff is very difficult to explain/discuss in words.
[/quote]

I understood all of it. The note of the independant arm circuit is funny. That is why I think it is the hardest part of the swing to train.

What are your thoughts on upper lead arm motion in transition, and how it can inhibit the ability to tilt properly?