Elbow to navel

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358676206' post='6263749']


As a golfer TA. strike some balls with this feel. Give us feedback. while your pattern has come under scrutiny by haters after you posted some vids on the tube I think you should bring it down to our level. Maybe even do a comparison vid on your swing with no thoughts, and left elbow to navel.


[/quote]

I don't treat me as a golfer at all PG, so I don't want to discuss what I do or not.

My body is not at that shape I could do those things. I got no flexibility to that, I got no power in my legs and central body to do that. I got no interest and time to fix those problems as I rarely play this game nowadays. That doesn't mean I don't understand the geometry behind of it or teach it to the players who are able to produce it. For the people like me there is lot of "gray area" between those sides and I know to what direction to guide them to make them better.

About that power and flexibility I'm in very lucky position to be able to compare my swing to some really good ball strikers and really see the differences. See why tehy create more speed at many joints and how they can create differences between orientations between two, three or even five different joints, things we call lag usually, but also with deeper observation than the wrist angle in 2D.

But I tell you one experience I had. Few years ago I was in much better shape and could produce something like this.. I guess. I guess because I never filmed my swing at that time and got nothing to prove it, but at that time I felt I was pushing the left arm through impact with my stomach. And you know I got pretty big stomach so I pushed it well
I have never had that ball flight before and never after that. I was able to reach the green at 300m par 4 and it was amazing.

What have I learned also with this is that there is few about forgotten things in our physical training as this way of hitting balls is not well enough known. When that will be more accepted, I believe there gonna be some changes also at that side and some specialists start to write books also relative to that.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358678017' post='6263783']
I felt I was pushing the left arm through impact with my stomach. And you know I got pretty big stomach so I pushed it well
I have never had that ball flight before and never after that. I was able to reach the green at 300m par 4 and it was amazing.
What have I learned also with this is that there is few about forgotten things in our physical training
[/quote]

You're talking about is using extension of the lower half to power the downswing. SnT and 5SK all day. But I have had lower back problems from over extension. I, personally, could use drills to speed up the arms.

For reference in the physical training department I could deadlift WELL over 400 pounds at a body weight of 185 or so. My extension muscles rival guys who play golf for a living period

And pound for pound rival most of the population of this website period

I could deadlift 500 pounds if I really wanted. Not sure this 500 would be beneficial to my game though

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358678852' post='6263807']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358678017' post='6263783']
I felt I was pushing the left arm through impact with my stomach. And you know I got pretty big stomach so I pushed it well
I have never had that ball flight before and never after that. I was able to reach the green at 300m par 4 and it was amazing.
What have I learned also with this is that there is few about forgotten things in our physical training
[/quote]

[b]You're talking about is using extension of the lower half to power the downswing.[/b] SnT and 5SK all day. But I have had lower back problems from over extension. I, personally, could use drills to speed up the arms.

For reference in the physical training department I could deadlift WELL over 400 pounds at a body weight of 185 or so. My extension muscles rival guys who play golf for a living period

And pound for pound rival most of the population of this website period

I could deadlift 500 pounds if I really wanted. Not sure this 500 would be beneficial to my game though
[/quote]

Why you put words to my mouth?

It's way more complicated as I see it and joint mobility and right kind of using legs and feet are important things to learn. I got pretty strong upper body also and I understand perfectly why my left knee leaks as it cant take all the power produced by upper body however I try. Part of that is neuromuscular, part of that only muscular.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358679704' post='6263815']
Why you put words to my mouth?
[/quote]

Okay. to keep the thread on topic please explain what you mean by this post.

I wasnt going to post a vid of your swing. But if me personally was tryin to swing like you I would feel like the stomach and left arm fired hard.

Maybe I will post swings of normal versus left elbow to navel

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358680740' post='6263839']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358679704' post='6263815']
Why you put words to my mouth?
[/quote]

Okay. to keep the thread on topic please explain what you mean by this post.

I wasnt going to post a vid of your swing. But if me personally was tryin to swing like you I would feel like the stomach and left arm fired hard.

Maybe I will post swings of normal versus left elbow to navel
[/quote]

I simply meant what I said there. It's not about extension of the left side, its way more complicated case with many different moves and timing.

[tylerdurden]

o yeah well i can deadlift 800lbs 1 handed

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358669850' post='6263649']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358635719' post='6261311']
The Illusion itself is that it "looks like" a good ballstriker is independently "swinging" his arms around his body, on both back and forward swings, ie upper arms moving themselves from the shoulder joint. When you are able to learn a good action, the arms are being moved by the shoulder girdle, ie a the two sides of the Triangle, shoulder girdle being the base. So RPM speed of arms and shoulders during Release until just after impact is the same, and both arms stay to right of midl-line, ie left elbow to navel, until after impact, when you let momentum pull the arms across mid-line to your left, but still in contact with your chest to some degree.

Not sure I quite understand your question about hip vs shoulder rotation, they are not moving at same RPM speed, shoulders are faster, but if a pro pivot stalls, almost always the arms are then moved across mid-line from momentum.The pivot energy leaks into the upper arms and moves them.

Most golfers are actually using their arm muscles to move the arms across mid-line and strongly believe that "everyone knows" that this is the most basic aspect of a golf swing. Hence the emotional reactions I described when the students start to see the truth.
[/quote]

Great posts Jim once again and I see you have really found that. Just want to add few lines here:

More I make research, more and more I understand how big part of what we see is reactions to inner circle speed and directions changes. More I teach, more and more I see people who try actively produce those movements by muscular action.

So in other words, cross over release is not necessarily made by rotating the forearms, but more by lacking the ability to prevent that happen by inner circle movements.

So sliding to the left, early weight shift and many other things can be the reason for the player not to be able to keep on the rotation of the shoulders, which are at the main role in this case. There has been lot of discussion about hips, how they accelerate or decelerate, but more I look them, more I see that there is many ways to do it with hips, but no many ways with shoulders. They have to accelerate through impact, just opposite that kinetic chain theory tells us, to be able to keep that elbow at the navel. It's all in acceleration and high shoulder speed AFTER impact.

Damn... I got million of things to tell but not enough time... but Jim, if there is anything I can do to help you with your book, don't hesitate to contact me and you get all the help I can give. If you need some graphs to be used there, good or bad, just ask me.

Thanks, Tee - much appreciated, and I may well take you up on your offer of the graphs. I agree, and also see hip rotational speed variation but more uniform shoulder girdle rotation. And shoulder girdle acceleration through and past the ball is one of the most important fundamentals of the golf swing. I agree that kinetic chain theory is not quite accurate on that issue.
[/quote]

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358694944' post='6264495']
o yeah well i can deadlift 800lbs 1 handed
[/quote]

lol dangit. Back to the gym I guess

[guisician]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358712086' post='6265803']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358694944' post='6264495']
o yeah well i can deadlift 800lbs 1 handed
[/quote]

lol dangit. Back to the gym I guess
[/quote]

I can dead lift a Pro V1 onto a 2 1/2" tee 14 times a round...most of the time.

[Jacob Mac]

I am having a hard time visualizing this move. Is the move rotating the left elbow at impact so it points at your navel?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358678017' post='6263783']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358676206' post='6263749']
As a golfer TA. strike some balls with this feel. Give us feedback. while your pattern has come under scrutiny by haters after you posted some vids on the tube I think you should bring it down to our level. Maybe even do a comparison vid on your swing with no thoughts, and left elbow to navel.


[/quote]

I don't treat me as a golfer at all PG, so I don't want to discuss what I do or not.

My body is not at that shape I could do those things. I got no flexibility to that, I got no power in my legs and central body to do that. I got no interest and time to fix those problems as I rarely play this game nowadays. That doesn't mean I don't understand the geometry behind of it or teach it to the players who are able to produce it. For the people like me there is lot of "gray area" between those sides and I know to what direction to guide them to make them better.

About that power and flexibility I'm in very lucky position to be able to compare my swing to some really good ball strikers and really see the differences. See why tehy create more speed at many joints and how they can create differences between orientations between two, three or even five different joints, things we call lag usually, but also with deeper observation than the wrist angle in 2D.

[b]But I tell you one experience I had. Few years ago I was in much better shape and could produce something like this.. I guess. I guess because I never filmed my swing at that time and got nothing to prove it, but at that time I felt I was pushing the left arm through impact with my stomach. And you know I got pretty big stomach so I pushed it well
I have never had that ball flight before and never after that. I was able to reach the green at 300m par 4 and it was amazing.[/b]

What have I learned also with this is that there is few about forgotten things in our physical training as this way of hitting balls is not well enough known. When that will be more accepted, I believe there gonna be some changes also at that side and some specialists start to write books also relative to that.
[/quote]

T, I felt this for the first time in my life today on the range. AMAZING. It really was incredible. I've seen similar ball flights before, but it was the swing that felt so good. Club has never felt so stable.

[Pinsplitter59]

I have no idea what this topic is about.
But I did find a pic of Ping10guy with his left elbow very out and high.
I think he is saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor".
[attachment=1498499:strong-golfer.jpg]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1358738055' post='6268055']
I am having a hard time visualizing this move. Is the move rotating the left elbow at impact so it points at your navel?
[/quote]

Not really Jacob, it's lateral move of the arm relative to the torso. Or actually missing that lateral move people use to have.

So to get this means that you just keep your left arm across your body and just let it fall down. Keep it there and then just rotate and never let it loose so you feel your chest is facing the target at impact. You will never be that open, so more you can do it, better you are.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1358738521' post='6268123']
I have no idea what this topic is about.
But I did find a pic of Ping10guy with his left elbow very out and high.
I think he is saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor".
[attachment=1498499:strong-golfer.jpg]
[/quote]
Its about feeling like your left elbow gets to the navel in the downswing.

I was pretty sarcastic in some of my posts. I even laughed out loud as I was typing them.

I am a doctor...of amazing. She let me be Facebook friends

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358766004' post='6269251']

Its about feeling like your left elbow gets to the navel in the downswing.

[/quote]

If that doesn't work out, you could try Hal Sutton's feeling of piercing his heart with his left elbow on the DS. LOL

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358790228' post='6271089']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358766004' post='6269251']
Its about feeling like your left elbow gets to the navel in the downswing.

[/quote]

If that doesn't work out, you could try Hal Sutton's feeling of piercing his heart with his left elbow on the DS. LOL
[/quote]

Exactly. My arms already get narrow in the downswing. Left elbow to navel doesnt sound like something I want to try until I get the width right. I do have slow arms though. Like literally no armswing. So there is some merit but it can be easily misinterpreted. Funny thread though.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358802615' post='6272317']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358790228' post='6271089']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1358766004' post='6269251']
Its about feeling like your left elbow gets to the navel in the downswing.

[/quote]

If that doesn't work out, you could try Hal Sutton's feeling of piercing his heart with his left elbow on the DS. LOL
[/quote]

Exactly. My arms already get narrow in the downswing. Left elbow to navel doesnt sound like something I want to try until I get the width right. I do have slow arms though. Like literally no armswing. So there is some merit but it can be easily misinterpreted. Funny thread though.
[/quote]

Seriously, you are the one in a million with no arm swing. Most have the opposite problem with the arms working too early and independently of the pivot.

[Jim Waldron]

Ping, you are taking the idea too literally, perhaps? You dont actually have your left elbow touching your navel - well, maybe you do if you have a really big belly. The idea is to have the arms to the right of mid-line of the body, the "navel" representing mid-line. Yes - you would be way too narrow if your left elbow was actually in contact with your navel. And Joe is right - 99.9999% of golfers struggle with too much independet of the pivot arm swingf, especially high handicap golfers.

The idea of slow vs fast arms means one has already accept the underlying premise of an independent arm swing. You can certainly have arms that are lagging too much behind the mid-line or arms that don't have enough of that lag, at the start of Transition. But if the arm to chest angle is set properly during Takeaway, and you don't pivot so fast during Transition that create a lot more of that lag angle, then there is no issue of slow vs fast arms. The ideal is arms moving at same RPM speed as your shoulder girdle.

[borker]

How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.

Was Earl Woods telling a 3 year-old Tiger about the illusion of arms swinging and how it really needs to be seen to understand it? Rory's father? Jack? Were they reading about how hogans flat shallow downswing was ideal biomechanical BS and spending countless hours drilling to force themselves into it? Was Bubba Watson constantly reading internet forums to help conceptualize what he is SUPPOSED to do while he was self learning (no instruction he says)?

Or is the golf swing really just simple but we get in the way? They picked up a club and being young not very strong and ended up learning how to "swing" it freely with pivot?

I don't get it. I think as adults we complicate the golf swing. Breaking it down way too much. Devising concepts (such as Arm Swing Illusion, Stack/Tilt, etc) that attempt to help explain how tour pro's hit the ball. Or sticking devices on themselves to force positions/FLW.

But where did the pro's learn to do these things properly?

I handed my 2 yo son a golf club and told him to swing at golf ball. He swung his arms and body without worrying about where he was or what he supposed to look like. He'd eventually just learn to propel the ball and be in all these proper concepts. No?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.

Was Earl Woods telling a 3 year-old Tiger about the illusion of arms swinging and how it really needs to be seen to understand it? Rory's father? Jack? Were they reading about how hogans flat shallow downswing was ideal biomechanical BS and spending countless hours drilling to force themselves into it? Was Bubba Watson constantly reading internet forums to help conceptualize what he is SUPPOSED to do while he was self learning (no instruction he says)?

Or is the golf swing really just simple but we get in the way? They picked up a club and being young not very strong and ended up learning how to "swing" it freely with pivot?

I don't get it. I think as adults we complicate the golf swing. Breaking it down way too much. Devising concepts (such as Arm Swing Illusion, Stack/Tilt, etc) that attempt to help explain how tour pro's hit the ball. Or sticking devices on themselves to force positions/FLW.

But where did the pro's learn to do these things properly?

I handed my 2 yo son a golf club and told him to swing at golf ball. He swung his arms and body without worrying about where he was or what he supposed to look like. He'd eventually just learn to propel the ball and be in all these proper concepts. No?
[/quote]

A much more accurate description of golf reality is what average golfers do in their struggles to learn a good golf swing, not what a tiny number of "Mozarts of golf" experienced as children. And children use a totally different part of the brain to learn motor skills in any case, and you are dead right, not the analytical part.

But in today's game at the tour pro level, the vast majority of pros under age 45 learned the swing via lessons with a teaching pro, that became more technical as the child grew older. Widespread use of video and training aids for this younger generation of pros.

The "natural swing" for 99.9999% of the population is on display every weeknend at your local driving range, and most of those average golfers who struggle mightily to hit the ball solid and straight have not taken any or very few lessons that were technical in nature. To them, there is nothing easy or natural about striking a golf ball.

As far as the Arm Swing Illusion goes, you could try thinking of it this way. If I was a professional magician, and you came to my act one night and watched me make a canary materialize out of thin air into the palm of my hand, it might inspire you to learn the trick and become a magician yourself. You could spend years of eight hour a day training on your own, trying to "figure out" the trick, but obviously would fail to do so. The answer lies in understanding what is actually occurring, and what appears to b e happenning in a magic trick is not really happening, and what is happening you do not see. The golf swing is a lot like that. There are many sensory illusions that fool our brain/mind into believing that "X" is happening, when in fact something else entirely is happening. It is why so many pro athletes become quickly addicted to golf when they take up the game after they retire, and why so many will tell you that they thought it was an easy game that they could quickly master using their superior athletic ability.

[Crab Daddy]

[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
Or is the golf swing really just simple but we get in the way? They picked up a club and being young not very strong and ended up learning how to "swing" it freely with pivot?
[/quote]

I'll give you swimming as an analogy. Mr. Waldron touched on the differences of how children learn motor skills differently than adults. That difference is very evident in swimming. I started swimming at age 40 and swam with a Master's group for several years. I busted my a$$ trying to get better, but there was a 'wall' that I could not get past. Other guys who were not in great shape and didn't train nearly as hard, but swam competitively as children, just made me look silly. It's a pretty typical story. People who start swimming at a young age acquire a 'feel' for the water that is very difficult for adults to develop.
A young, flexible kid who gets a feel for the proper dynamics of the golf swing probably has a big advantage over those of us picking it up as adults.

[borker]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1358815485' post='6273439']
The "natural swing" for 99.9999% of the population is on display every weeknend at your local driving range,
[/quote]

Really? Not my local driving range... And I frequent them a lot {with my own crowded thoughts and instruction in my head}

What I see is everyone working on positions, looking at their hands at top to 'fix them', desperately trying to fire their hips first to start downswing (many way over doing it), doing Pump-Drills, etc. Basically their perceived INSTRUCTION. Whether it came from lessons, a book, reading internet forums or even a friend who was exposed to those. Hell, One can get basic instruction nowadays just watching PGA events on CBS as they slo-mo swings and commentators discuss what they are doing during the swing.

Hardly NATURAL. The few that really made me turn and watch, looked natural. When I asked how long they've been golfing it is always since before 12 years old.

Don't mean to argue, just my differing opinion.

[borker]

[quote name='Crab Daddy' timestamp='1358818508' post='6273721']
A young, flexible kid who gets a feel for the proper dynamics of the golf swing probably has a big advantage over those of us picking it up as adults.
[/quote]

Thanks for that quick story. This is EXACTLY what I am trying to allude to.

Although I hate to admit it myself (as I am a late starter)and also don't mean to suggest anyone starting out later (past 25yo or so?) to just throw their hands up and quit or accept that they will never be good enough to break 80. The fun is in the challenge of it or possibility we are naturals.

It's just that I have begun to think the way adults learn golf is wildly unsuccessful (as witness to average scores still stuck around 100 even with advances in slo-mo video to see what tour pros do, trackman, etc). It is a HARD sport and as young children they have all the time to work on it as they want with no hindering bills, work, wife/gf , etc taking away time PLUS the young bodies that obey our thoughts.. Of course there will be exceptions.

I have a friend who is 42, out of shape beer belly, is slow as molasses when we play basketball and don't think he has a fast twitch muscle in his body. I am slim, always been athletic and work on my game way more than he does. Yet he goes out and shots mid 70's despite working 40hrs a week. Difference? He started at about 8 year old and played tons. Went to Arkansas on a golf scholarship. Me, I started late 30's yet probably hit more balls in a week than he hits in 6 months. I also know so much more "technical" stuff/concepts about the swing from spending time in books, forums, etc. But he wipes me and most we end up playing with.

I guarantee if I asked him about how the arms swinging is an illusion he will have no idea. He also won't know: if his arm is on proper angle from chest, has a flat left wrist at impact with slo-mo video proof, or even if he swings or hits.

[Pinsplitter59]

hate those natural born golfers
Buddhists and Hindus at least understand its because they already did it in a previous life.
Knowing thaat makes me feel not so stupid.
I wonder if language acquisition and Chomsky's ideas apply to golf swings.
years ago a kid i knew in the country, off a remote farm, was a great ballstriker with no lessons, he could even turn over a 5 iron and hit it left handed as good as a RH shot.
Makes me look up at the sky and say 'Not fair, god".
I asked another natural kid ,who turned pro later, what's your basic essential swing thought?
he said, "back, up, down and through"
i was so disappointed, i wanted a secret not something so simple it seems silly.
I suspect that maybe because of grip or some other mysterious quality these guys can just know where the club head is and know how to control it with their hands and allow the body to respond or just get out of the way.
In a dumb but true sense, is all about "where things are".
these dudes just seem to know where things are.
personally I have a boundary at waist level, i can only be aware of stuff above or below, not both at the same time.
hmmmmm......
New Theory: The Whole Body Awareness Golf Swing.

[Jim Waldron]

Pin - you are stealing my thunder,I actually came up with that exact same phrase for how I teach the golf swing, Whole Body Awareness. You do need to have awareness that is expanded enough to include more than one part of the body to really excel at ballstriking. It is genius level talent if natural, but us ordinary mortals can learn it, I teach people how to do it everyday. It starts with clear awareness of just one part from Feel Channel and after that level is mastered, one can expand the awareness to an adjacent body part.

It is very much about knowing "where things are" as you state. Clubhead awareness is part of that, but it is mostly kindergarten level stage of learning, unless one swings like Bubba.

Golfers who are stuck inside their thinking mind - I call that "contamination" - confusing swing theory with swing execution, and thinking that their conscious mind can actually control their body with precision while swinging at normal swing speeds, are engaging in superstitious non-rational approach to golf improvement.

You train consciously in slow motion in front of a mirror, then forget about positions when you practice on the range and especially when playing on the golf course. You train the body so that you can eventually forget about the body. This is not rocket science, it has been employed in many other sports and for two thousand years in Asian martial arts tradition.

Many golfers confuse swing theory with a set of mental instructions that the conscious mind engages in over a golf shot: "Put Tab A into Slot B, the rotate Tab A 45 degrees...". That is NOT effective practice or effective play.

There is an alternative to that madness...

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.

Was Earl Woods telling a 3 year-old Tiger about the illusion of arms swinging and how it really needs to be seen to understand it? Rory's father? Jack? Were they reading about how hogans flat shallow downswing was ideal biomechanical BS and spending countless hours drilling to force themselves into it? Was Bubba Watson constantly reading internet forums to help conceptualize what he is SUPPOSED to do while he was self learning (no instruction he says)?

Or is the golf swing really just simple but we get in the way? They picked up a club and being young not very strong and ended up learning how to "swing" it freely with pivot?

I don't get it. I think as adults we complicate the golf swing. Breaking it down way too much. Devising concepts (such as Arm Swing Illusion, Stack/Tilt, etc) that attempt to help explain how tour pro's hit the ball. Or sticking devices on themselves to force positions/FLW.

But where did the pro's learn to do these things properly?

I handed my 2 yo son a golf club and told him to swing at golf ball. He swung his arms and body without worrying about where he was or what he supposed to look like. He'd eventually just learn to propel the ball and be in all these proper concepts. No?
[/quote]

is your name Brandel Chamblee??

[tylerdurden]

Jim do you ever make it to the east coast?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1358834210' post='6274957']
[quote name='borker' timestamp='1358812720' post='6273167']
How are tour pro's able to do all this stuff and get into proper positions/motions with no instruction for it? Hard to explain what I am asking. But most tour pro's start/started at a very young age. They start by just going out and hitting balls. Finding what works for them then refining it while young.


[/quote]

Most of the tour pros have never been taught away from this and that's why they are there.

We adults, specially we men, can't really understand how heavy the club feels for the kids and how weak their arms and hands are at that age. So what happens naturally is that they start to produce all the forces they can with everything they can and they end up something similar to this what we are talking about. That's why I always tell kids how they need to learn high distance before accuracy
[/quote]
Tee and JW...perhaps the problem comes in explaining "Feels"... ie., "arm across chest" or, "elbow to navel"... these are feels, imo. To a literalist, they would be very confusing. Perhaps better to say, the anatomical movements you are decribing and the sequence...ie., [size=4][b]on the downswing the left shoulder stays in internal rotation, and the left scapula retracts[/b][/size]...the feel would be the left arm lays across the chest more to the right, and the left shoulder does not open rather the chest expands and the feel is the opening of the entire left chest and pec...YEs? No? After all, the left arm clearly abducts in the post impact interval, and your description of a "feel" would likely have golfers decelerating the left arm and pivot. True?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1358738521' post='6268123']
I have no idea what this topic is about.
But I did find a pic of Ping10guy with his left elbow very out and high.
I think he is saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor".
[attachment=1498499:strong-golfer.jpg]
[/quote]

Lordy. If only the cart girls looked like that.