How to count an OB if you cant re Tee

[KevCarter]

[quote name='cb_golfer' date='16 March 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1268763630' post='2319982']
+1 for being pragmatic!
[/quote]

+2, but I had to look up [i]pragmatic[/i].

Kevin

[rankoutsider]

I think, Sawgrass, you have nailed it. I play a lot of golf with mid to high handicap buddies and I play by the rules whenever I play. I don't make anyone else do it, but I return to the tee when I am OB. People never say anything, except a variant of what I say when it happens with the group in front of me: "I'm sure you didn't try to hit it OB, so take your time and play your shot." Very simple. And yes, the guy will always get caught up and back into position within two holes, so it is really "no harm no foul" time-wise. Believe it or not, if it happens on the first tee, there is no way it will affect the outcome of the day; on 17 it might delay the 19th hole beer a fraction.

[skizix]

PM apologies all the way around. Hopefully everybody is cool. I am.

 

Kevin

 

 

Cheers.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='16 March 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1268763455' post='2319973']
You know what Sawgrass?

Something just dawned on me. It never bothers me to go back, because it happens quickly. I have really bad knees, and always have to ride a cart. Walking back could take an extra 5-10 minutes, and I see why that would make more folks uncomfortable on a busy day...

Kevin
[/quote]

Kevin,

I'm sure you're an excellent golfer, so I believe you have another "advantage" other than your cart on the very rare occasion when you have to go back: Your second tee shot is going to be a good one -- or at the very least it will have come from an impressive-looking swing!

The more "hacker-like" a golfer is, the less viable that trip back to the tee is apt to be! (I feel safe in assuming that the crowd on the tee will be less than charitable if the second tee shot sails o.b. as well.)

In any case, if you find yourself playing in front of me some day, I'll welcome the chance to say "hello" if you are forced to return to the box. Then I'll turn to my foursome and say, "Hey, did you recognize that guy? He's kevcarter!"

[Boomermike]

As far as I'm concerned, pace-of-play problems that come with hitting a ball o.b. are the fault of people who manage the course, not the players who hit balls o.b.

Don't want me hitting provisionals or going back to the tee to take my penalty and hit again? Then paint the white stakes red and turn o.b. into a lateral hazard.

As I see it, the o.b. rule was not put in place during a time in history when golf courses were accessible and affordable to the general public, and thus extremely crowded with foursomes playing on top of each other every weekend. A century-and-a-half ago, nobody ever considered that going back to the tee to hit again after a ball is discovered o.b. might slow the pace of play. Well, guess what? Times have changed, and shots that go o.b. DO lead to such problems.

So if a course in this day and age that KNOWS it's going to be busy INSISTS on clinging the antiquated, outdated, impractical, and mostly pointless o.b. rule, then I'd better not hear a PEEP out of some waste of carbon in a marshall's cart taking issue with the fact that I'm following his employer's rules.

It's the year 2010. Paint the stakes red, and let people take a drop.

[skizix]

Thank you Sawgrass. What you said is pretty much exactly what I was trying to get across -- no idea why today I could not seem to do that without causing a poo-storm.

And...my aplologies to anyone whose skin I got under (and vice-versa, I guess), whom I did not already PM.

[shotmark]

Skizix, When I posted I was replying to the original post which was the only entry at the time because as you may have noticed that entries do not appear straight away. I play at a very busy course but have never encountered a problem when walking back to play 3 of the tee. I do of course wave the people on the tee through so as not to cause a delay - something many people seem pathologically incapable of doing. Perhaps they're scared of the wife if they're home 5 minutes past their deadline. Another solution given your apparent disregard for the rules would of course be to kick it back into play when no ones looking!!!

[oldironman]

Great post Sawgrass. Perhaps muni's and other heavy traffic courses should just replace the white OB stakes with red lateral stakes. (apologies to BoomerMike, Your post wasn't up when I posted0

[NUKE56]

I'm with Sawgrass and Boomermike.

[skizix]

Skizix...

...given your apparent disregard for the rules would of course be to kick it back into play when no ones looking!!!

 

ZING! Hey, I thought we were all, like, koombaya now ...you trying to get me all raggy again?

 

Fortunately, I don't really care anymore

 

 

But anyhow...I suspect part of our disconnect on this one is: chances are I shoot a lot more errant tee shots that yourself

[KevCarter]

I'm with Sawgrass and Boomermike.

 

Oh - Oh, the lines are being drawn!

 

Count to 10 and come out fighting! :cheesy:

 

I really think we are all on the same team. We have guys trying to explain the rules, and guys who just want to have fun. Nobody is saying the guys just wanting to have fun are inferior in any way. Just trying to answer questions on the rules... Like I said before, live and let live, it's just a game, we need more folks to play, do it in a manner that makes you want to come back to the course next weekend!

 

Kevin

[skizix]

...we need more folks to play...

 

Actually, if we can avoid this part, this issue would become entirely moot

[shotmark]

Hey Skizix, I wouldn't bet on that. 89 gross today playing off 8. Maybe that's why i've got my head up my Harris. Anyway nuff said and let's all be freinds.

[Speedly]

[quote]Another solution given your apparent disregard for the rules would of course be to kick it back into play when no ones looking!!![/quote]
Quit with your self-righteousness.

Aside from your COMPLETELY arbitrary claim there, what the hell do you care? You'll never have to play with him.

While i understand the RoG are there for a reason, you're vastly overreacting. Grab a beer, kick back in your La-Z-Boy, and relax. This is nothing worth a rise in anyone's blood pressure.

[Sawgrass]

I'm with Sawgrass and Boomermike.

 

Oh - Oh, the lines are being drawn!

 

Count to 10 and come out fighting!

 

I really think we are all on the same team. We have guys trying to explain the rules, and guys who just want to have fun. Nobody is saying the guys just wanting to have fun are inferior in any way. Just trying to answer questions on the rules... Like I said before, live and let live, it's just a game, we need more folks to play, do it in a manner that makes you want to come back to the course next weekend!

 

Kevin

 

If the lines are in fact being drawn, I'm not on my side -- I'm on the USGA's side! I want to play by an objective third-party's rules.

 

I can't be trusted to make the rules. Pretty soon I'd make a rule that I get a hole in one on every hole, and then what would I do with my free time?

 

But I can be trusted to complain. And to look for loopholes. Just ask my wife.

[Newby]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='16 March 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1268762989' post='2319950']
There are three kinds of golfers:

1) Those that always play by the rules
2) Those that are very comfortable altering the rules for whatever reason suits them.
3) Those that really want to play by the rules, but feel they sometimes can't

[/quote]

What about a fourth type?
Those that want to play by the rule but don't know what it is and ask on a forum such as this.

But the real problem is with players who are too stupid not to play a provisional if there is any chance of the ball being OOB and with the money grabbers who pack their courses to the rim.

[skizix]

[quote name='Newby' date='16 March 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1268771816' post='2320473']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='16 March 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1268762989' post='2319950']
There are three kinds of golfers:

1) Those that always play by the rules
2) Those that are very comfortable altering the rules for whatever reason suits them.
3) Those that really want to play by the rules, but feel they sometimes can't

[/quote]

What about a fourth type?
Those that want to play by the rule but don't know what it is and ask on a forum such as this.

But the real problem is with players who are too stupid not to play a provisional if there is any chance of the ball being OOB and with the money grabbers who pack their courses to the rim.
[/quote]

Well the rule applies to lost balls as well as OB, and it is not tough to be duped by either, at least occasionally.

Someday you will hit a shot, 100% positive you know right where it landed (possibly even right in the fairway!)...then you will walk up and realize that it is nowhere to be found. Sometimes it's because you've landed in leaves or grass clippings, and other times it is just pure Twighlight Zone material. Totally infuriating.

Or, you'll think you actually see your ball IB after hitting, and so don't hit a provisional, but then you walk up and it was a shiny leaf, etc. and your ball is nearby, just OB.

Yes, it will happen to you too.

[Newby]

[quote name='skizix' date='16 March 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1268773026' post='2320559']
[quote name='Newby' date='16 March 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1268771816' post='2320473']
[quote name='Sawgrass' date='16 March 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1268762989' post='2319950']
There are three kinds of golfers:

1) Those that always play by the rules
2) Those that are very comfortable altering the rules for whatever reason suits them.
3) Those that really want to play by the rules, but feel they sometimes can't

[/quote]

What about a fourth type?
Those that want to play by the rule but don't know what it is and ask on a forum such as this.

But the real problem is with players who are too stupid not to play a provisional if there is any chance of the ball being OOB and with the money grabbers who pack their courses to the rim.
[/quote]

Well the rule applies to lost balls as well as OB, and it is not tough to be duped by either, at least occasionally.

Someday you will hit a shot, 100% positive you know right where it landed (possibly even right in the fairway!)...then you will walk up and realize that it is nowhere to be found. Sometimes it's because you've landed in leaves or grass clippings, and other times it is just pure Twighlight Zone material. Totally infuriating.

Or, you'll think you actually see your ball IB after hitting, and so don't hit a provisional, but then you walk up and it was a shiny leaf, etc. and your ball is nearby, just OB.

Yes, it will happen to you too.
[/quote]

I agree. But I sometimes wonder if it is a macho thing.
When officiating I find men far more resistant to taking a provisional than ladies.

If 50% more provisionals were played for marginally doubtful OOB or lost balls it would be an improvement.

[Skaffa77]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='16 March 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1268763455' post='2319973']
You know what Sawgrass?

Something just dawned on me. It never bothers me to go back, because it happens quickly. I have really bad knees, and always have to ride a cart. Walking back could take an extra 5-10 minutes, and I see why that would make more folks uncomfortable on a busy day...

Kevin
[/quote]

I've seen the poor sap who left his bag in the fairway, grabbed the driver, tee and a ball to walk back to the tee box only to hit it OB again. Talk about uncomfortable...

One time at a golf course, I hooked my tee shot 3 times into the same house...after the 3rd time, I told my group that the rules of golf won't pay for a broken window if I press my luck again.

[DaveLeeNC]

Not to belabor the obvious, but the USGA Handicap Manual gives the golfer a clear option. You can just pick up your ball at any time and record the score that you would have most likely achieved had you not picked up the ball and completed the hole under the Rules of Golf (USGA Manual 4-1). THe rule stipulates that you can't do this for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

If I am facing this situation on a crowded course where the competition doesn't require 'a real score' for me on that hole (virtually all my golf is team competitions), I'll take this route in a heartbeat. After ESC adjustments this is almost always a double bogey for me. To me this is still golf - maybe not to others.

dave

[grabthepin]

Painting OB stakes red: a region must have the characteristic of a hazard to be declared a hazard. Too many clubs abuse this already. Out of bounds is out of bounds - that's golf. It's part of the course architect's design, it's part of golf strategy in weighing up the risks of certain shots.

[grabthepin]

Sure balls disappear from unlikely spots and no provisional was hit. But how often? Treat it as bad luck. In tournament play either go back, disqualify yourself in stroke play or concede the hole in match play.

In a non-tournament handicap round, go back or disqualify yourself from the hole as the handicap system allows. If you've got some bet on, do whatever you've agreed on.

Because consider this scenario:

My hook is killing me today.

I drive, it's heading towards OOBs. I hit a provisional, it's also heading there. I hit another provisional but this time up the middle. I get up there, find the first two OOBs and are hitting 6 from the middle.

Your hook is also nasty.

You hit your first towards OOB and don't worry about a provisional. You find it OOB, take a two-stroke penalty and drop where the ball cross OOB. You're playing 4 from the rough.

Dang, why did I play a provisional?

A two stroke penalty is insufficient. Even a four stroke could be insufficient.

OOB is not something that you can limit the damage from by simply taking a finite penalty. You must keep on hitting until you avoid it.

[JonT]

I liked the idea of painting the white stakes red until I thought it about a moment; than the problem of the hacker who is convinced he can play his/her ball and escape from "the hazard" and save par, or something close to that, so he/she spends 10 minutes (or more) looking for the ball (hacker has a poor concept of time or no watch or doesn't care 'cause he's going to find that ball); you get the idea...

I am a ranger at my home course and you see this kind of stuff all the time. My job is to help out those in trouble and make sure things are done in timely fashion meanwhile smoothing out tempers if I can. It helps to remind ourselves that keeping a cool head under pressure of time, feeling embarrassed, imposition to your group and others, is part of golf. The same applies (mental state) to groups following the OB golfer, it's all part of the game/match and always will be.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='JonT' date='17 March 2010 - 08:13 AM' timestamp='1268827980' post='2322298']
I liked the idea of painting the white stakes red until I thought it about a moment; than the problem of the hacker who is convinced he can play his/her ball and escape from "the hazard" and save par, or something close to that, so he/she spends 10 minutes (or more) looking for the ball (hacker has a poor concept of time or no watch or doesn't care 'cause he's going to find that ball); you get the idea...

I am a ranger at my home course and you see this kind of stuff all the time. My job is to help out those in trouble and make sure things are done in timely fashion meanwhile smoothing out tempers if I can. It helps to remind ourselves that keeping a cool head under pressure of time, feeling embarrassed, imposition to your group and others, is part of golf. The same applies (mental state) to groups following the OB golfer, it's all part of the game/match and always will be.


[/quote]

Actually it is worse than that. In [b]most[/b] cases outside the white stakes is somebody else's property. Red stakes (without some additional rules of some kind) would imply that you can play out of Joe's tomato garden/etc.

dave

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='jontyc' date='17 March 2010 - 04:14 AM' timestamp='1268813672' post='2322143']

Because consider this scenario:

My hook is killing me today.

I drive, it's heading towards OOBs. I hit a provisional, it's also heading there. I hit another provisional but this time up the middle. I get up there, find the first two OOBs and are hitting 6 from the middle.

Your hook is also nasty.

You hit your first towards OOB and don't worry about a provisional. You find it OOB, take a two-stroke penalty and drop where the ball cross OOB. You're playing 4 from the rough.

Dang, why did I play a provisional?

A two stroke penalty is insufficient. Even a four stroke could be insufficient.

OOB is not something that you can limit the damage from by simply taking a finite penalty. You must keep on hitting until you avoid it.
[/quote]

Of course you are right jontyc. In order to comply with the spirit of the game you'd always have to hit a provisional if you thought you were in danger of being lost or o.b. And it clearly wouldn't make any sense to create a situation where you are given the right to contemplate the option of hitting again or taking a drop with a two stroke penalty. That's why in my proposed local rule in my post #11 I suggested the local rule only apply when one is "surprised" to find that your ball is lost or o.b. Not when you've clearly hit it into the woods or over the fence.

I was trying to dream up some alternative to having to go back and likely upset other players. (I find when playing with strangers it even sometimes upsets people that I take the time to putt out -- let alone go back for a stroke and distance penalty! But that's another subject.)

Since it's likely a loser hole for you anyway, I hoped that the USGA might see their way clear to providing an option like this for casual play. I know it's not an issue for handicap purposes, because that can be dealt with, but it's just very disappointing to me to have to "DQ" myself from my casual round rather than coming home with an actual score I can contemplate.

I'd even be comforted if the four stroke penalty discussed by Kevin and HigherGround in post #24 were sanctioned by the USGA, but I'm not at all sure that you can legitimately claim that you didn't commit a "serious breach" of the rule in attempting that solution, and thereby have to DQ yourself anyway. And regardless, a four stroke penalty for losing a ball under a leaf is perhaps more harsh than the fathers of golf intended.

I don't know, maybe it's just something a player on a muni or resort course should just have to suffer every now and then. Or maybe I should just suck it up and go back to hit even in uncomfortably crowded situations. But somehow it seems that a more workable, yet legitimate solution for non-tournament rounds could be developed.

[Speedly]

Maybe it's just a northern California thing, but I've only ever seen one hole on the courses around here with defined OB stakes. There are, of course, the fences that bound the property, but that's clearly OB because you can't exactly go find it anyhow (fence is in the way!). But aside from those fences, I've seen one. Count 'em.

One.

The OB rule only tends to apply out here if you shank one off the course, so my experience with OB rules and procedures are very, very limited. Maybe some of you guys should move out here!

[dcaput02]

The question of why someone would NOT want to follow the official rules of golf has already been well explained. In reaction, some people have expressed an attitude that if you're not following the rules of golf you might as well kick your ball down the fairway any way you see fit. To that point, let me mention why I feel it is a worthwhile discussion to invent an unofficial rule for handling OB and lost balls.



** The whole point of such a discussion is to determine an unofficial rule that has as much equity to the original rule as possible. **



Most people understand that by not re-teeing they are not following the ROG and cannot post scores for handicap purposes (which the majority of golfers do not maintain). So the question arises, "What course of action should be taken for a lost or OB ball that would result in a similar handicap to that of one under the official ROG?" In other words, what penalty would give me as similar a score as possible on the hole if I followed the official rules? This gives recreational golfers their best chance to estimate a handicap that is a least in the same ball park as official indexes.



I don't pretend to know the answer to that question but it's not conceptually hard to test. A large enough sample size of variously skilled golfers playing an appropriate number of rounds under both sets of rules could easily test any proposed course of action. Barring that, I think a more conservative rule (more penal) should be adopted. I imagine playing it like a lateral hazard with a 2 stroke penalty would fit that criterion.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='dcaput02' date='18 March 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1268925494' post='2324931']
The question of why someone would NOT want to follow the official rules of golf has already been well explained. In reaction, some people have expressed an attitude that [b]if you're not following the rules of golf you might as well kick your ball down the fairway any way you see fit.[/b] ...
[/quote]

If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!

Perhaps when people come to this forum and ask questions on the rules, we should clarify which answers pertain to the USGA rules, and what you may do if you're just having fun? Perhaps a different forum would be in order... rules for those who don't wish to follow the USGA / R&A rules. We have options!

Kevin

[farmer]

If a ball is obviously headed OB, you need to hit a provisional until you get one in play. If, as the OP stated, you have no reason to be concerned, drop, play out the hole, add two and go on. NOT in tournament play. My experience is that by the time you find the original ball, determine that it is in fact OB, go back to the tee, hit another ball or two, go find them and play out, unless the course is empty, you have made a logjam. Unless you are playing for organs or more than a post-round beverage, other players on the course need to be considered. I know the rules, understand the importance and so on, but I hate to take 20 minutes to play one hole in a purely recreational round. BTW, I sometimes break the speed limit also.

[atlanta golfer]

[quote name='rankoutsider' date='16 March 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1268761242' post='2319876']
Kev is exactly right here; I have no idea what you guys are getting on him for.

Do whatever you like. Drop a ball and play 4 and go about your business, but the rules of golf, if those are what you want to play by, offer you no provision for doing that. You must return to the tee.

As well, and this rule really confuses people, you are only permitted to hit a provisional when there is a reasonable likelihood your ball is lost (you hit it a mile wide of your fairway and lose it, or into the woods, etc.). If you see the ball hit the path and have a good sense of where it landed, you are not permitted to hit a provisional, even to speed up play. If you get to your ball and find it, you must immediately take the provisional out of play, even if you intend to choose, as your remedy, returning to the tee. So, if you hit a provisional, find the original but don't want to play it, you are never permitted to just say "I'll play my provisional instead of this one." The provisional is a provisional against a lost ball only, not against an unplayable lie, or a ball that has rolled OB and is not lost.

But guys, do whatever you want to speed up play. If you have an unwritten rule in your foursome to just drop and play, then go ahead. The rules of golf don't let you do this, but collective assent does. And if you are going to play by a form of consensus, then maybe it is best not to get on a board like this, ask about the "real" rules of golf, and then scoff when you hear them. Your grievance is with the USGA and the R and A, not with Kevin.

And of course, a tournament committee is able to implement local rules for any competition. The rules are meant to cover issues with the course, conditions, or nature of the event, and are binding on all players in the tournament. That post was simply flat-out strange.
[/quote]

I need a clarification. I thought you could hit a provisional "if my ball is lost [u]OR[/u] OB". Everything else you said, I am right on with you.