How to count an OB if you cant re Tee

[dcaput02]

[quote name='jontyc' date='17 March 2010 - 04:14 AM' timestamp='1268813672' post='2322143']
...OOB is not something that you can limit the damage from by simply taking a finite penalty. You must keep on hitting until you avoid it.
[/quote]

That's a good point; I've seen pros hit consecutive balls out of bounds. It makes determining an equitable rule difficult, but i still feel a simplified set of rules could be determined that, on average, would result in similar scores as the official rules (while addressing pace of play and other challenges faced by more casual golfers).


[quote name='jontyc' date='18 March 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1268949728' post='2325734']
[quote name='dcaput02' date='18 March 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1268925494' post='2324931']
[b]Most people understand that by not re-teeing they are not following the ROG and cannot post scores for handicap purposes[/b] (which the majority of golfers do not maintain). So the question arises, "What course of action should be taken for a lost or OB ball that would result in a similar handicap to that of one under the official ROG?" In other words, what penalty would give me as similar a score as possible on the hole if I followed the official rules? This gives recreational golfers their best chance to estimate a handicap that is a least in the same ball park as official indexes.

I don't pretend to know the answer to that question but it's not conceptually hard to test. A large enough sample size of variously skilled golfers playing an appropriate number of rounds under both sets of rules could easily test any proposed course of action. Barring that, I think a more conservative rule (more penal) should be adopted. I imagine playing it like a lateral hazard with a 2 stroke penalty would fit that criterion.
[/quote]

This is a wrong understanding and on the contrary you are expected to still post that round. The handicap system caters for holes not played under the Rules of Golf or holes unfinished. The handicap system is trying to be accurate, and you have 17 totally accurate hole scores it can make use of. For the bad hole, you will need to estimate what you would have truly scored (for unfinished holes) or post par + strokes given on the hole (when not played to the RoG). It's already catered for, no new protocol needed.
[/quote]

Can someone expand how this might work? Say i played 17 holes in accordance with the rules, and also one hole where i didn't go back to retee a lost ball. How would the round be handicapped? Does it matter how many holes were not played under the rules?

[Sawgrass]

Here are to relevent segments of the handicap manual:

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

b. Posting a Score When a Complete Round is not Played

 

If 13 or more holes are played, the player must post an 18-hole score. If 7 to 12 holes are played, the player must post a nine-hole score. In either case, scores for unplayed holes must be recorded as par plus any handicap strokes that the player is entitled to receive on the unplayed holes. (See Section 4-2 and 5-1a .)

 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 30 stops playing after 16 holes because of darkness. Hole 17 is a par 3 and is the number 18 handicap-stroke hole. The player will record 3 (par) plus 1 handicap stroke for an X-4 on hole 17. Hole 18 is a par 4 and is the number 12 handicap-stroke hole. The player will record 4 (par) plus 2 handicap strokes for an X-6 on hole 18.

 

 

 

 

[/url]4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

 

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under "The Rules of Golf" (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Section 5-2b.)

 

Note: A score must not be posted if the majority of the holes are not played under the principles of "The Rules of Golf."

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In your case, you should replace the score you might have written down on the illegally-played hole with par plus any handicap strokes you were given for that particular hole.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

Here are to relevent segments of the handicap manual:

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

b. Posting a Score When a Complete Round is not Played

 

If 13 or more holes are played, the player must post an 18-hole score. If 7 to 12 holes are played, the player must post a nine-hole score. In either case, scores for unplayed holes must be recorded as par plus any handicap strokes that the player is entitled to receive on the unplayed holes. (See Section 4-2 and 5-1a .)

 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 30 stops playing after 16 holes because of darkness. Hole 17 is a par 3 and is the number 18 handicap-stroke hole. The player will record 3 (par) plus 1 handicap stroke for an X-4 on hole 17. Hole 18 is a par 4 and is the number 12 handicap-stroke hole. The player will record 4 (par) plus 2 handicap strokes for an X-6 on hole 18.

 

 

 

 

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

 

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under "The Rules of Golf" (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Section 5-2b.)

 

Note: A score must not be posted if the majority of the holes are not played under the principles of "The Rules of Golf."

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In your case, you should replace the score you might have written down on the illegally-played hole with par plus any handicap strokes you were given for that particular hole.

 

 

 

There is a 3rd case in the USGA Handicap Manual not listed above and is the one that directly affects the situation posted.

 

4-1. Unfinished Loles and Conceded Strokes

 

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap puposes the most likely score. This must not exceed ESC Limits .....

 

dave

 

ps. The goal of the USGA vs. the 'other systems' that I am VAGUELY familiar with are different. The systems typically used in Europe/etc. (from my limited understanding) are EXTREMELY careful to only record 'very valid scores'.

 

The USGA system intends to capture 'as many scores as feasible' (where 'feasible' might not be 'very valid'). From what I know I would not have a handicap in the UK, even though I consider myself a serious golfer. I play a lot of golf, but play very little golf that is some kind of formal competition.

 

But you can't deny that the US system cannot avoid sandbaggers in all cases. The US Handicap problems mostly don't exist in the UK, I would assume (at the cost of golfers like me not having a handicap).

 

No obviously 'better' solution in either case - just different.

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

Here are to relevent segments of the handicap manual:

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

b. Posting a Score When a Complete Round is not Played

 

If 13 or more holes are played, the player must post an 18-hole score. If 7 to 12 holes are played, the player must post a nine-hole score. In either case, scores for unplayed holes must be recorded as par plus any handicap strokes that the player is entitled to receive on the unplayed holes. (See Section 4-2 and 5-1a .)

 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 30 stops playing after 16 holes because of darkness. Hole 17 is a par 3 and is the number 18 handicap-stroke hole. The player will record 3 (par) plus 1 handicap stroke for an X-4 on hole 17. Hole 18 is a par 4 and is the number 12 handicap-stroke hole. The player will record 4 (par) plus 2 handicap strokes for an X-6 on hole 18.

 

 

 

 

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

 

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under "The Rules of Golf" (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Section 5-2b.)

 

Note: A score must not be posted if the majority of the holes are not played under the principles of "The Rules of Golf."

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In your case, you should replace the score you might have written down on the illegally-played hole with par plus any handicap strokes you were given for that particular hole.

 

 

 

There is a 3rd case in the USGA Handicap Manual not listed above and is the one that might (or might not) directly affect the situation posted.

 

4-1. Unfinished Loles and Conceded Strokes

 

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap puposes the most likely score. This must not exceed ESC Limits .....

 

dave

 

ps. The goal of the USGA vs. the 'other systems' that I am VAGUELY familiar with are different. The systems typically used in Europe/etc. (from my limited understanding) are EXTREMELY careful to only record 'very valid scores'.

 

The USGA system intends to capture 'as many scores as feasible' (where 'feasible' might not be 'very valid'). From what I know I would not have a handicap in the UK, even though I consider myself a serious golfer. I play a lot of golf, but play very little golf that is some kind of formal competition.

 

But you can't deny that the US system cannot avoid sandbaggers in all cases. The US Handicap problems mostly don't exist in the UK, I would assume (at the cost of golfers like me not having a handicap).

 

No obviously 'better' solution in either case - just different.

 

dave

 

I once asked a guy with USGA Rating Authority how he handled (as in posting) match play where he was conceded a number of 5' putts in a match (as an example). He said that he kept track of concessions and would record the 3rd 5 footer as 2 putts as he knows that he makes less than 2/3's of his 5 footers. This was more of a 'general principles statement (IMHO) than a strict methdology.

[Newby]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='19 March 2010 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1269028328' post='2327646']
ps. The goal of the USGA vs. the 'other systems' that I am VAGUELY familiar with are different. The systems typically used in Europe/etc. (from my limited understanding) are EXTREMELY careful to only record 'very valid scores'.

The USGA system intends to capture 'as many scores as feasible' (where 'feasible' might not be 'very valid'). From what I know I would not have a handicap in the UK, even though I consider myself a serious golfer. I play a lot of golf, but play very little golf that is some kind of formal competition.

dave
[/quote]

Dave

The UK and European systems are based almost exclusively on Competition scores.
In the UK, 3 scores are required to maintain an active handicap but it is possible to pre-declare a non competition round to be counted for handicap purposes. But the round must be played strictly to the rules.
That is simply the essence, there is obviuosly more to it than that.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Newby' date='19 March 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1269029877' post='2327709']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='19 March 2010 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1269028328' post='2327646']
ps. The goal of the USGA vs. the 'other systems' that I am VAGUELY familiar with are different. The systems typically used in Europe/etc. (from my limited understanding) are EXTREMELY careful to only record 'very valid scores'.

The USGA system intends to capture 'as many scores as feasible' (where 'feasible' might not be 'very valid'). From what I know I would not have a handicap in the UK, even though I consider myself a serious golfer. I play a lot of golf, but play very little golf that is some kind of formal competition.

dave
[/quote]

Dave

The UK and European systems are based almost exclusively on Competition scores.
In the UK, 3 scores are required to maintain an active handicap but it is possible to pre-declare a non competition round to be counted for handicap purposes. But the round must be played strictly to the rules.
That is simply the essence, there is obviuosly more to it than that.
[/quote]

Thanks - didn't know that. And I'm not sure what to think about it either. Is the "pre-declare" something formal?

dave

ps. FWIW - I don't have a strong opinion about right vs. wrong here.

[Newby]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='19 March 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1269030729' post='2327743']
Is the "pre-declare" something formal?

[/quote]

Yes. Yes, the player and marker have to sign in at the proshop (or login at a terminal) before going to play.

It tends to put some pressure on the player.

[Sawgrass]

Dave,

I was responding above to the following question:


[quote name='dcaput02' date='19 March 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1269007605' post='2326957']

Can someone expand how this might work? Say i played 17 holes in accordance with the rules, and also one hole where i didn't go back to retee a lost ball. How would the round be handicapped? Does it matter how many holes were not played under the rules?
[/quote]

I believe you are incorrect in your below statement that my handicap rule citing regarding "holes not played under the rules of golf" was not the situation that directly effected the situation posted. It was not an unfinished hole, and had nothing to do with conceded strokes.

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='19 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1269028125' post='2327638']
There is a 3rd case in the USGA Handicap Manual not listed above and is the one that directly affects the situation posted.

4-1. Unfinished Loles and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap puposes the most likely score. This must not exceed ESC Limits .....

dave

[/quote]

Perhaps you were commenting on a different situation.

[gvogel]

[quote name='shotmark' date='16 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1268747868' post='2319334']
This is not an option when you go OB. You need to go back to where you played the shot from that went OB and play your next from the same place. Penalty is stroke and distance so if your 1st shot went OB you are now playing your 3rd. Hope this clarifies.
[/quote]

If you mean that playing a provisional is not an option, you are incorrect. You are always allowed to play a provisional if there is a chance that your ball has gone OB. That way, when you find that your first ball is OB, you can play your provisional. That speeds up play.

However, if you find your first ball in bounds, but unplayable, you can not play your provisional. In that case, you must proceed under the unplayable ball rules - one of which is to go back to the tee and hit again.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='19 March 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1269039039' post='2328006']
Dave,

I was responding above to the following question:


[quote name='dcaput02' date='19 March 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1269007605' post='2326957']
Can someone expand how this might work? Say i played 17 holes in accordance with the rules, and also one hole where i didn't go back to retee a lost ball. How would the round be handicapped? Does it matter how many holes were not played under the rules?
[/quote]

I believe you are incorrect in your below statement that my handicap rule citing regarding "holes not played under the rules of golf" was not the situation that directly effected the situation posted. It was not an unfinished hole, and had nothing to do with conceded strokes.

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='19 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1269028125' post='2327638']
There is a 3rd case in the USGA Handicap Manual not listed above and is the one that directly affects the situation posted.

4-1. Unfinished Loles and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap puposes the most likely score. This must not exceed ESC Limits .....

dave

[/quote]

Perhaps you were commenting on a different situation.
[/quote]

While this has nothing to do with conceded strokes, the case that you described (you teed off within the rules of golf and then didn't finish the hole per the rules of golf) should be handicapped per USGA Handicap Rule 4-1 (with ESC adjustments, of course).

dave

[Sawgrass]

Perhaps you are interpreting dcaput2's comment as meaning he didn't complete the hole. I interpreted it as if he had completed the hole but not complete it under the rules of golf.

I fear we still disagree.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='19 March 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1269040438' post='2328040']
Perhaps you are interpreting dcaput2's comment as meaning he didn't complete the hole. I interpreted it as if he had completed the hole but not complete it under the rules of golf.

I fear we still disagree.
[/quote]

We disagree. IMHO, if he started the hole under the Rules of Golf, but didn't complete it under the Rules of Golf, nothing else matters - apply Rule 4-1. The fact that you used a "gunpowder based golf ball gun" to 'hit' your second shot on a par 5 vs. putting it in your pocket is irrelevant.

But I suppose I could be wrong about that.

dave

[Blues Golfer]

I started a thread on this a year ago...It's interesting this time because others have pointed out the consequences of dropping a ball where you think the ball went out, and finishing the hole from there -- add an additional two stroke penalty (which I will call stroke and distance plus two for playing from the wrong place, as two plus two).

If you are playing in a tournament, you are at the mercy of the committee overseeing play. Odds are, you will be DQ'd, unless you finished the hole, returned to the spot from where you hit the ball that went out of bounds, took a stroke penalty, and completed the hole. In that case, you might, might, not be DQ'd. I've never heard of it, but the rules seem to imply it could happen.

If you are not in a tournament, you have no committee to present your case to.

I am curious about how to record the gross score. Some who have posted have said that the golfer did not complete the hole, and takes par plus handicap strokes, and puts down an X-(whatever). What was the golfer's gross score on the hole?

Rather than pick up, I would be more inclined to finish the hole, take my two plus two penalty, and record that as my gross score. After the round, I can adjust it to get an adjusted gross...but at least this way, I have a gross score on the hole.

Which is the proper way to record a gross score?