How to count an OB if you cant re Tee

[Sawgrass]

Atlanta,

 

Here's the rule and a relevent decision:

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke

 

 

 

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

 

Q. In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

 

A. No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play see Decision 27-2a/2.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Rankoutsider seems to feel that when a ball hits a path and disappears from view is not "reasonable" to believe that it might possibly be lost. I'm not so sure that he is correct. It's my suspicion that this rule is meant to prevent someone from simply taking a practice shot and calling it a provisional to make the practice shot legal. If you see your ball after it comes to rest, it's clearly not reasonable to think that it might be lost. But to me, a ball hitting a cartpath and moving off might create a reasonable possibility that it may be lost, depending on other circumstances.

 

I'd also welcome a second opinion on what seems "reasonable" in this situation.

It would seem that the proximity of brush and length of the rough should be taken into consideration.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1268927654' post='2325021']
[quote name='dcaput02' date='18 March 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1268925494' post='2324931']
The question of why someone would NOT want to follow the official rules of golf has already been well explained. In reaction, some people have expressed an attitude that [b]if you're not following the rules of golf you might as well kick your ball down the fairway any way you see fit.[/b] ...
[/quote]

If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!

Perhaps when people come to this forum and ask questions on the rules, we should clarify which answers pertain to the USGA rules, and what you may do if you're just having fun? Perhaps a different forum would be in order... rules for those who don't wish to follow the USGA / R&A rules. We have options!

Kevin
[/quote]

There really is an intermediate ground here. An unexpected ball OB/lost on a crowded course is one. And there are answers that can be helpful (like how the USGA Handicap Manual would suggest you deal with this).

Or the situation I ran into yesterday. I was at a strange course. Depending on the state of my swing I sometimes take a 9* and 11* driver to the range and make a decision there. We had hit about 10-15 balls when the starter guy (bright and intelligent - quite a pleasant change) came up to us (3-some of mid to low handicappers) and said "if you can tee off "RIGHT NOW" I can get you ahead of a couple of pretty slow groups. It was 20 minutes to our scheduled tee time.

I didn't think - we just headed for the tee and there I was with 15 golf clubs (which I realized as I reached for my driver on the 1st tee). I suppose I should have given myself a four stroke penalty (I believe that is correct). I didn't (nor did I hit the 9* driver).

There is a gray zone here.

dave

[atlanta golfer]

Atlanta,

 

Here's the rule and a relevent decision:

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke

 

 

 

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

 

Q. In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

 

A. No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play — see Decision 27-2a/2.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Rankoutsider seems to feel that when a ball hits a path and disappears from view is not "reasonable" to believe that it might possibly be lost. I'm not so sure that he is correct. It's my suspicion that this rule is meant to prevent someone from simply taking a practice shot and calling it a provisional to make the practice shot legal. If you see your ball after it comes to rest, it's clearly not reasonable to think that it might be lost. But to me, a ball hitting a cartpath and moving off might create a reasonable possibility that it may be lost, depending on other circumstances.

 

I'd also welcome a second opinion on what seems "reasonable" in this situation.

It would seem that the proximity of brush and length of the rough should be taken into consideration.

 

The part where I think rankoutside may be mistaken is where he says "The provisional is a provisional against a lost ball only, not against an unplayable lie, or a ball that has rolled OB and is not lost."

 

The unplayable lie part I get. But I think he is mistaken because a provisional may be taken against a lost ball or an OB ball. Sometimes you do not know. Myself and the people I play with usually say something like "I'm hitting a provisional in case my first ball is lost or OB". Is this incorrect? Because that is not the way I read that rule.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='18 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1268931659' post='2325163']
[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1268927654' post='2325021']
[quote name='dcaput02' date='18 March 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1268925494' post='2324931']
The question of why someone would NOT want to follow the official rules of golf has already been well explained. In reaction, some people have expressed an attitude that [b]if you're not following the rules of golf you might as well kick your ball down the fairway any way you see fit.[/b] ...
[/quote]

If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!

Perhaps when people come to this forum and ask questions on the rules, we should clarify which answers pertain to the USGA rules, and what you may do if you're just having fun? Perhaps a different forum would be in order... rules for those who don't wish to follow the USGA / R&A rules. We have options!

Kevin
[/quote]

There really is an intermediate ground here. An unexpected ball OB/lost on a crowded course is one. And there are answers that can be helpful (like how the USGA Handicap Manual would suggest you deal with this).

Or the situation I ran into yesterday. I was at a strange course. Depending on the state of my swing I sometimes take a 9* and 11* driver to the range and make a decision there. We had hit about 10-15 balls when the starter guy (bright and intelligent - quite a pleasant change) came up to us (3-some of mid to low handicappers) and said "if you can tee off "RIGHT NOW" I can get you ahead of a couple of pretty slow groups. It was 20 minutes to our scheduled tee time.

I didn't think - we just headed for the tee and there I was with 15 golf clubs (which I realized as I reached for my driver on the 1st tee). I suppose I should have given myself a four stroke penalty (I believe that is correct). I didn't (nor did I hit the 9* driver).

There is a gray zone here.

dave
[/quote]

Dave,

I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones...

However, if we are trying to answer questions on the rules of golf, I think we should give the correct answer, not make up our own.

For example, in that situation, playing a friendly game, I would not in a million years expect you to penalize yourself. However, if someone asks the question, 2 shots per hole with a maximum of 4.

I stay out of threads like "Do you play by the rules?" I don't always, I make sure I am playing the same rules as everyone else, and if they are not played by the rules of golf, I don't turn in my score for handicap. For example, I used to take members on winter trips. We post our own "local" rules. Some of which are totally against the rules of golf, but we all play by the same rules, and we don't turn in our scores for handicap. We're on vacation!

Sometimes golf is just about having fun. A rules forum is the place for correct answers to rules questions.

I'm tired of being looked at as a rules nazi when all I'm trying to do is give correct information. Incorrect answers, or deciding what is OK when you feel like it does nothing but confuse the issue.

Kevin

[Sawgrass]

The part where I think rankoutside may be mistaken is where he says "The provisional is a provisional against a lost ball only, not against an unplayable lie, or a ball that has rolled OB and is not lost."

 

The unplayable lie part I get. But I think he is mistaken because a provisional may be taken against a lost ball or an OB ball. Sometimes you do not know. Myself and the people I play with usually say something like "I'm hitting a provisional in case my first ball is lost or OB". Is this incorrect? Because that is not the way I read that rule.

 

 

Atlanta, I'm afraid that part of the rule I quoted didn't get printed above. Here's another attempt:

 

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

 

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance

 

The way you and your friends state your intention to play a provisional is exactly right. And yes, to Rankoutsider's point, if you or your opponents find your ball in bounds within the time limit, you must abandon the provisional ball.

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1268937394' post='2325328']
Dave,


Sometimes golf is just about having fun. A rules forum is the place for correct answers to rules questions.

I'm tired of being looked at as a rules nazi when all I'm trying to do is give correct information. Incorrect answers, or deciding what is OK when you feel like it does nothing but confuse the issue.

Kevin
[/quote]

Hey Kevin, I know I speak for many, many people when I say your reputation is one of an articulate and accurate resource. Not a Nazi.

Please keep the faith!

[sigmapete1]

I think the real problem underlying all this is NOT either side in this debate nor the rule, but instead is the d'bag that's at the tee when you go to re-tee who is b*tching about the slow round and blames your one OOB shot for the entire slow day and then tries to fight you about it. Without that guy, no educated golfer would feel compelled to drop instead of go back and the rule would be perfectly fine. I am almost positive that that guy is NOT posting here on WRX so we should all get along just fine, because we are just discussing different approaches to a common problem, the d'bag. Unfortunately, there is no cure for that, especially as golf becomes more popular.

[shotmark]

[quote name='sigmapete1' date='18 March 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1268939971' post='2325412']
I think the real problem underlying all this is NOT either side in this debate nor the rule, but instead is the d'bag that's at the tee when you go to re-tee who is b*tching about the slow round and blames your one OOB shot for the entire slow day and then tries to fight you about it. Without that guy, no educated golfer would feel compelled to drop instead of go back and the rule would be perfectly fine. I am almost positive that that guy is NOT posting here on WRX so we should all get along just fine, because we are just discussing different approaches to a common problem, the d'bag. Unfortunately, there is no cure for that, especially as golf becomes more popular.
[/quote]


If you're coming back to play 'three off the tee' just let those behind play through then no one get's held up.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1268937394' post='2325328']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='18 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1268931659' post='2325163']
[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1268927654' post='2325021']
[quote name='dcaput02' date='18 March 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1268925494' post='2324931']
The question of why someone would NOT want to follow the official rules of golf has already been well explained. In reaction, some people have expressed an attitude that [b]if you're not following the rules of golf you might as well kick your ball down the fairway any way you see fit.[/b] ...
[/quote]

If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!

Perhaps when people come to this forum and ask questions on the rules, we should clarify which answers pertain to the USGA rules, and what you may do if you're just having fun? Perhaps a different forum would be in order... rules for those who don't wish to follow the USGA / R&A rules. We have options!

Kevin
[/quote]

There really is an intermediate ground here. An unexpected ball OB/lost on a crowded course is one. And there are answers that can be helpful (like how the USGA Handicap Manual would suggest you deal with this).

Or the situation I ran into yesterday. I was at a strange course. Depending on the state of my swing I sometimes take a 9* and 11* driver to the range and make a decision there. We had hit about 10-15 balls when the starter guy (bright and intelligent - quite a pleasant change) came up to us (3-some of mid to low handicappers) and said "if you can tee off "RIGHT NOW" I can get you ahead of a couple of pretty slow groups. It was 20 minutes to our scheduled tee time.

I didn't think - we just headed for the tee and there I was with 15 golf clubs (which I realized as I reached for my driver on the 1st tee). I suppose I should have given myself a four stroke penalty (I believe that is correct). I didn't (nor did I hit the 9* driver).

There is a gray zone here.

dave
[/quote]

Dave,

I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones...

However, if we are trying to answer questions on the rules of golf, I think we should give the correct answer, not make up our own.

For example, in that situation, playing a friendly game, I would not in a million years expect you to penalize yourself. However, if someone asks the question, 2 shots per hole with a maximum of 4.

I stay out of threads like "Do you play by the rules?" I don't always, I make sure I am playing the same rules as everyone else, and if they are not played by the rules of golf, I don't turn in my score for handicap. For example, I used to take members on winter trips. We post our own "local" rules. Some of which are totally against the rules of golf, but we all play by the same rules, and we don't turn in our scores for handicap. We're on vacation!

Sometimes golf is just about having fun. A rules forum is the place for correct answers to rules questions.

[b][size="3"]I'm tired of being looked at as a rules nazi when all I'm trying to do is give correct information. Incorrect answers, or deciding what is OK when you feel like it does nothing but confuse the issue.[/size][/b]

Kevin
[/quote]

Kev, I think that the problem/issue is that

[i]If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!
[/i]
Can easily be interpreted as hugely inflexible and totally inconsistent with the statement

[i]I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones..[/i]

In the meantime thanks for all you have contributed here. I have learned a bunch about the RoG from you on this forum.

dave

[bermuda]

If someone wants to just drop one, take two strokes and say he's just playing for fun not for handicap purposes or money or in a tournament or will just take his ESC maximum for handicap purposes, I don't have a problem with that.

But once, a friend of mine hit a tee shot on a par 5 OB. He reteed and hit in the middle of the fairway. He hit his next shot about three feet from the hole, then made the putt for an official par.

Whenever I think about just dropping after a lost or OB tee shot, I think about that hole and know that I would hate to hit the next shot tight and make the putt but not be able to count it as an official 5. So if I haven't hit a provisional, I usually head back to the tee. Then again, I usually play in the evenings when few others are on the course.

[Newby]

[quote name='shotmark' date='18 March 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1268940334' post='2325422']

If you're coming back to play 'three off the tee' just let those behind play through then no one get's held up.
[/quote]

If there is no space ahead of your group you should rarely let a group through. They are not going anywhere. There is absolutely no point.
Simple queuing theory tells you that.

[Newby]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1268937394' post='2325328']

I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones...

[/quote]

Kevin

None that I could see in this thread. All were covered by an appropriate rule.
But I may have missed a sidetrack.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Newby' date='18 March 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1268945627' post='2325592']
[quote name='kevcarter ' date='18 March 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1268937394' post='2325328']

I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones...

[/quote]

Kevin

None that I could see in this thread. All were covered by an appropriate rule.
But I may have missed a sidetrack.
[/quote]



Agree or disagree, good guy or rules nazi, I can't win!

[Sawgrass]

Dave,

In Kevin's first post in this thread he said:


[quote name='kevcarter ' date='16 March 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1268755587' post='2319617']
. . . If you are playing golf, you go back to the tee.

If you are making up your own rules anyway, have fun and who cares. Live and let live. . .
[/quote]


Then he said:


[quote nme='kevcarter ' date='16 March 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1268767040' post='2320149']

. . . I really think we are all on the same team. We have guys trying to explain the rules, and guys who just want to have fun. Nobody is saying the guys just wanting to have fun are inferior in any way. Just trying to answer questions on the rules... Like I said before, live and let live, it's just a game, we need more folks to play, do it in a manner that makes you want to come back to the course next weekend!
[/quote]

Now, in your latest post you quote him as saying:


Kev, I think that the problem/issue is that

[i]If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!
[/i]
Can easily be interpreted as hugely inflexible and totally inconsistent with the statement

[i]I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones..
[/i]

I respectfully submit that there is no way that Kevin has said anything that remotely comes off as inflexible. He's actually supported the concept of making up rules when you choose, and he's helped those who wish to be precise with the rules do so. What more could you ask of him?

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='18 March 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1268945941' post='2325603']
Dave,

In Kevin's first post in this thread he said:


[quote name='kevcarter ' date='16 March 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1268755587' post='2319617']
. . . If you are playing golf, you go back to the tee.

If you are making up your own rules anyway, have fun and who cares. Live and let live. . .
[/quote]


Then he said:


[quote nme='kevcarter ' date='16 March 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1268767040' post='2320149']
. . . I really think we are all on the same team. We have guys trying to explain the rules, and guys who just want to have fun. Nobody is saying the guys just wanting to have fun are inferior in any way. Just trying to answer questions on the rules... Like I said before, live and let live, it's just a game, we need more folks to play, do it in a manner that makes you want to come back to the course next weekend!
[/quote]

Now, in your latest post you quote him as saying:


Kev, I think that the problem/issue is that

[i]If you want to play by the rules, play by the rules. If you don't, have fun!
[/i]
Can easily be interpreted as hugely inflexible and totally inconsistent with the statement

[i]I agree 100%. Lots of gray zones..
[/i]

I respectfully submit that there is no way that Kevin has said anything that remotely comes off as inflexible. He's actually supported the concept of making up rules when you choose, and he's helped those who wish to be precise with the rules do so. [b]What more could you ask of him[/b]?
[/quote]


Absolutely nothing.

I was just stating a meta-opinion (my opinion of other's opinion).

dave

[grabthepin]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='18 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1268931659' post='2325163']
[Or the situation I ran into yesterday. I was at a strange course. Depending on the state of my swing I sometimes take a 9* and 11* driver to the range and make a decision there. We had hit about 10-15 balls when the starter guy (bright and intelligent - quite a pleasant change) came up to us (3-some of mid to low handicappers) and said "if you can tee off "RIGHT NOW" I can get you ahead of a couple of pretty slow groups. It was 20 minutes to our scheduled tee time.

I didn't think - we just headed for the tee and there I was with 15 golf clubs (which I realized as I reached for my driver on the 1st tee). I suppose I should have given myself a four stroke penalty (I believe that is correct). I didn't (nor did I hit the 9* driver).

There is a gray zone here.

dave
[/quote]

The thing is that you know you're honest and won't use the unwanted club, but no-one else does.

Yes, golf is a game of honesty but the Rules do try to put up some barriers to at least make it more difficult for those less honest to intentionally cheat. Someone with two identical drivers bar loft could very easily go a whole round using the one called for without anyone detecting it and having solid proof to penalize.

You would be only given a 2-stroke penalty in your situation if you declared the extra driver out of play before the next hole, but could have avoided that by giving the excess club to the starter or pro shop before teeing off.

[Newby]

Kevin

I will freely admit to being something of a rules aficionado but I find the use of the word nazi very offensive because of its history. I suspect many who use the word so freely have never been to Belsen or Auswitch or lived through a blitz.

I will also freely admit there are many social rounds in which I forget I have a rules book and just go with the swing. If however I am asked a question or I see a friend who obviously just doesn't know a rule, I am happy to help out if I don't think they will be offended.

But In a forum such as this I expect that if a rules question is asked, a rules answer is expected.

[mark m]

Kev - you do a great job and I appreciate it as well. This is how we learn as reading the rule book and retaining the info is not something most of us do.

Dave - I agree with you that it can be a challenge at times. I play with a group of 20-30 guys most weekends. We all throw money in and play by the rules (for the most part). Most of the money goes into skins and nearies - and a little goes to the low net score of the day. So if you do decide to pick up on a hole you are out of the low net competition. Some guys can't pick up ever because they have medal play bets with others. Obviously, in a tournament you can't pick up - but I think it is probably a good idea to do so in casual rounds once you have reached your ESC max, or believe you will (the "most likely score" scenario). As you say, the Handicap rules make allowances for this. (This is a good feature of a stableford competitions as well.)

The one rule I think is violated in our bunch is asking advice - "what did you hit there?" - especially on the par 3's. Other than that, rule compliance is pretty good. The seldom encountered rules are often topics for discussion after play in the bar. This really is the way we learn (and remember) those rules.

Whether or not you play by the rules in non-tournament rounds is often determined by who you are playing with. It's hard to do when the others in your group aren't. Another factor is the golf course itself. Courses with OB everywhere, long thick grass or thick woods close to playing areas, or just poorly maintained lead to a disrespect for the rules IMO.

Lastly, going back to re-tee can be embarrassing. I've had some personal experience in our State Open and they are not easily forgotten. So I guess you should consider the situation and use your best judgment.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='jontyc' date='18 March 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1268947631' post='2325666']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='18 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1268931659' post='2325163']
[Or the situation I ran into yesterday. I was at a strange course. Depending on the state of my swing I sometimes take a 9* and 11* driver to the range and make a decision there. We had hit about 10-15 balls when the starter guy (bright and intelligent - quite a pleasant change) came up to us (3-some of mid to low handicappers) and said "if you can tee off "RIGHT NOW" I can get you ahead of a couple of pretty slow groups. It was 20 minutes to our scheduled tee time.

I didn't think - we just headed for the tee and there I was with 15 golf clubs (which I realized as I reached for my driver on the 1st tee). I suppose I should have given myself a four stroke penalty (I believe that is correct). I didn't (nor did I hit the 9* driver).

There is a gray zone here.

dave
[/quote]

The thing is that you know you're honest and won't use the unwanted club, but no-one else does.

Yes, golf is a game of honesty but the Rules do try to put up some barriers to at least make it more difficult for those less honest to intentionally cheat. Someone with two identical drivers bar loft could very easily go a whole round using the one called for without anyone detecting it and having solid proof to penalize.

You would be only given a 2-stroke penalty in your situation if you declared the extra driver out of play before the next hole, but could have avoided that by giving the excess club to the starter or pro shop before teeing off.
[/quote]

You are correct - you can 'limit the damage' to 2 strokes. I didn't know that (Rule 4-4-c). Thanks!

Not knowing the course, the starter (or even where he disappeared to after he allowed us to 'sneak ahead'), with the next group (two octogenarian golfing couples - God bless them) driving up to the tee after the 1st drive by a playing partner, there was no reasonable alternative in my mind - or at least not a risk I was willing to take with a golf club.

dave

[tdk8180]

I play a lot of practice rounds with no spotters like every other guy. Sometimes I lose a ball in the rough, like every other guy does. Good drive, can't find it. Heck, I've lost balls I've hit down the middle of the fairway, lol.

Anyway, when I think there might be a chance my ball is OB, I hit another real quick. If I get up there and I can't find the ball cause it's lost, here is my own personal rule.

Since I am at the disadvantage of not being able to hit another drive from the tee, I can't assume that I would pump another ball OB, however, I can't assume that I wouldn't hit it OB. So, I drop my 2nd stroke, take my 3rd as a penalty, and hit my 4th from a "decent, fair" area, not in the fairway, but not so close to the OB. That way I balance out the fairness aspect of it. I could go back to the tee, pump it 290 down the middle, but because I'm passing up that opportunity, I can't justify dropping it in a bad lie, side hill lie.

And NO, you can't gi back to the tee, when there are people behind you. They don't understand you're playing by the rules, because they don't want to wait fo that. Pace of play is king on public golf courses. Otherwise, i always go back to the tee, if I know no one is behind me.

[Newby]

[quote name='mark m' date='18 March 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1268948122' post='2325683']
Lastly, going back to re-tee can be embarrassing. I've had some personal experience in our State Open and they are not easily forgotten. So I guess you should consider the situation and use your best judgment.
[/quote]

Mark

I don't how well your State Open is staffed in numbers up but it sounds as if the Rules Officials may not have been doing their job.

[grabthepin]

[quote name='dcaput02' date='18 March 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1268925494' post='2324931']
[b]Most people understand that by not re-teeing they are not following the ROG and cannot post scores for handicap purposes[/b] (which the majority of golfers do not maintain). So the question arises, "What course of action should be taken for a lost or OB ball that would result in a similar handicap to that of one under the official ROG?" In other words, what penalty would give me as similar a score as possible on the hole if I followed the official rules? This gives recreational golfers their best chance to estimate a handicap that is a least in the same ball park as official indexes.

I don't pretend to know the answer to that question but it's not conceptually hard to test. A large enough sample size of variously skilled golfers playing an appropriate number of rounds under both sets of rules could easily test any proposed course of action. Barring that, I think a more conservative rule (more penal) should be adopted. I imagine playing it like a lateral hazard with a 2 stroke penalty would fit that criterion.
[/quote]

This is a wrong understanding and on the contrary you are expected to still post that round. The handicap system caters for holes not played under the Rules of Golf or holes unfinished. The handicap system is trying to be accurate, and you have 17 totally accurate hole scores it can make use of. For the bad hole, you will need to estimate what you would have truly scored (for unfinished holes) or post par + strokes given on the hole (when not played to the RoG). It's already catered for, no new protocol needed.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Newby' date='18 March 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1268948045' post='2325680']
Kevin

I will freely admit to being something of a rules aficionado but I find the use of the word nazi very offensive because of its history. I suspect many who use the word so freely have never been to Belsen or Auswitch or lived through a blitz.

I will also freely admit there are many social rounds in which I forget I have a rules book and just go with the swing. If however I am asked a question or I see a friend who obviously just doesn't know a rule, I am happy to help out if I don't think they will be offended.

But In a forum such as this I expect that if a rules question is asked, a rules answer is expected.
[/quote]

I apologize, you are correct.

Kevin

[dbringans]

Coincidentally, the R&A posted this a few days ago on their website.

 

 

http://randa.org/node/44750

 

Why can't I drop my ball near where it went Out of Bounds?

 

Rules - 16 Mar, 2010

David Rickman: There are technical difficulties. There may be wide disagreement as to where the ball actually went, which could make a big difference. But historically there have been attempts to do this, most recently in the 1960s when the USGA tried a ‘stroke only’ penalty. That lasted a year, so you can tell how successful it was.

 

There were other times when they tried ‘distance only’, but we feel both are just too generous. We need to be careful what we’re trying to fix. If people are concerned about pace of play, that’s a legitimate concern and one we have looked at in our latest review in terms of our regulatory options.

 

Peter Dawson: The provisional ball Rule 27-2 really addresses any pace of play issues.

 

DR: Indeed. If there are pace of play concerns we believe on balance it’s an educational issue, so don’t feel that changing fundamental Rules and procedures is the way to solve it.

 

 

[Newby]

Kevin

I wasn't meaning you at all. I was critcizing those who call others rules nazis with no comprehension of the hurt and offense they may cause.

[mark m]

Newby: It wasn't very well staffed. But that didn't bother me. It was just a couple of fluke situations. I've played in 11 State Opens and had some very good experiences as well. But you tend to remember these things. Our group plays fast at my home track. I really like that as I know that this often is not the case on a public access course. Slowing down play is not something I ever want to do.

Here's 2 experiences:

State Open: Par 5, slight dog right, I hit a big drive over a tall tree on the corner with a little draw. Well, there is a line of small pine trees there about 3 yards from the fairway and my ball stuck in one of them. It was 100 degrees and very muggy. Had to wear pants. I declared that I believed it was in one of two trees and would take an unplayable if I could find it by shaking the trees. No luck - but I did get sap all over myself! Long walk back after 5 minutes. The guys behind gave me a look of course. What really hurts is I found it the next day (round 2) in the tree while waiting to hit my second shot! Ouch!

USGA Mid-Am Qualifier: I arrive an hour late because a tanker truck rolled over and closed the freeway. No other good route to the course. Went directly to the tee for my 8:00am tee time. Got there 1 minute before. Hit the first shot left and close to some OB. I asked the starter, is that OK? "Should be, anything right of the cart path is in." I was about 10 yards right of the path BUT - if you lined up the stakes that were about 60 yards apart - I was out by less than a yard. This obviously was golf course property as it was inside the cart path and the the grass was mowed the same, etc. I waived down an official - but - it was out. (He told me after that a stake was missing where the path curved.) At least he gave me a ride back.

It was a beautiful day and the course was in tremendous condition. The kicker here was what I found out on the 4th or 5th hole from one of the guys in my group. He had a bunch of messages so he checked his voice mail. It was 9/11/2001.

We obviously didn't care much about our golf scores after that.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='mark m' date='18 March 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1268953244' post='2325833']

...Long walk back after 5 minutes. The guys behind gave me a look of course...

[/quote]

Give them the look right back. What did they expect you to do?

[Par Fore]

Last year I hit one OB, well a lot of times, but one time I had to go back because I lost my GPS and thought it was on the tee, I got back there and the foursome said, "need to hit another one, huh"? I did need to hit another one but was going to do the whole, drop hit 4 thing, I said "yeah", re teed and they were cool about it, that is the only time I returned to the tee to hit another ball. I have never had a player return to the tee I was on and ask to re-tee, but after the cool guys behind me that day I would welcome them. I always try and hit a provisional and when I cannot becuase of speed of play I do take the hit 4 approach, but they guys I play with don't care, hell, half of may not even know you are supposed to return to the tee. I would much rather wait for a guy to return and hit a ball than watch them wait for a green to clear on a par 5 350 yards away.

[mark m]

I did - but I was one miserable sweat drenched cowboy - and somewhat embarrased as well.

I laugh about it now. I've had some wonderful luck in my day as well. This post just got me to think back to those past clusterxxxxx.

[atlanta golfer]

Whether it be an actual tournament round, or just friendly weekend play, I don't believe most people get upset when a player comes back to re-tee. The only thing that gets to me is when the same person comes back twice or perhaps three times in the same round to re-tee. That tells me they are too much of an optimist about their own game and are not thinking of others.

Personally, I embrace the opportunity to hit a provisional. It is basically a free practice ball, which is needed if I am not really feeling it off the tee on that day.