Hogan's hips

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280532245' post='2609086']Why don't you put up the videos of the power golf vs later ones of Hogan going through his routine / waggle and hitting the shot to enlighten me... apples with apples as well ... in other words a short iron v a short iron and long iron v long iron, wood v wood... pre accident to post accident
[/quote]

Thought that you have them somewhere in your collection...

Power Golf (no trigger compresion - only starting the backswing with arms - without pressing into the lead side):

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQK4551-omc&feature=related[/media]


Later (enough to see what old Ben had in his instant memory when having club in his hands - vide his beach clip, especially in his slo-mo performed for hosts) - you can see it everywhere on vids post 1946. Everywhere.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1280533672' post='2609109']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280532245' post='2609086']Why don't you put up the videos of the power golf vs later ones of Hogan going through his routine / waggle and hitting the shot to enlighten me... apples with apples as well ... in other words a short iron v a short iron and long iron v long iron, wood v wood... pre accident to post accident
[/quote]

Thought that you have them somewhere in your collection...

Power Golf (no trigger compresion - only starting the backswing with arms - without pressing into the lead side):

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQK4551-omc&feature=related[/media]


Later (enough to see what old Ben had in his instant memory when having club in his hands - vide his beach clip, especially in his slo-mo performed for hosts) - you can see it everywhere on vids post 1946. Everywhere.

Cheers
[/quote]


I could not produce that and show that in any court as evidence... simply the footage does not show the precursor or any prep moves

[Dariusz J.]

Well, even if that compilation did not convince you, the most important is that whatever moves to trigger his motion he had before 1947 - he had a very visible trigger compression after [b]and not without a cause[/b].

Cheers

[jak_bot]

Two videos from a local teaching pro. Some basic stuff, but sometimes going back to basics is good.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iya8VDEN7c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iya8VDEN7c[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsQ8NB0eRAg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsQ8NB0eRAg[/url]

[powerfade66]

[/quote] quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1280524211' post='2608859']
[quote name= timestamp='1280469717' post='2607838']
[b]Hello Powerfade66,

I don´t want to hijack the thread but...

very interesting what you are thinking - I see the same,
but I have a question about the 5 shaft bending movements. I don´t count the bodylag but than:

1st bend (since I floatload) at transition = longitudinal loading
2nd bend from laying off to steepen shaftplane = radial loading
3rd bend from my release sequence 2 1 4 ( that is a strange accumulator release, but I believe that is how
Mr. Hogan released and he was strong with releasing accu#2 and this supinated his left forearm without using accu#3)

So you can help me please what are the 5 transitions are... I am looking forward

Chris [/b]
[/quote]


[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1280529178' post='2608996']
Ahh, c'mon....the first shaft bend is the trigger compression action setting the clubface being delayed from the start. All best ballstrikers (except Trevino and Furyk) started their adventure with hickory shafts where it was sort of necessary in order to avoid shaft breakage.

Cheers
[/quote]

Hi Dariusz J
I have a different take on the first bend. I think it is partly due to trigger compression but that is not the whole story. Hogan starts with his hands downcocked or uncocked (or however you want to call it!) and from an upright posture. From here, I think at the start of his backswing he slightly downcocks a little bit more. Add to this his address position and, anatomically speaking, you have the wrists in the perfect position to bend the back of the right wrist to its fullest (put your hands up in front of you and experiment with bending the right wrist from varying degrees of **** - and i'm not talking about something your wife helps you with ). How does this help us? The downcock keeps the clubhead low, the upright posture stops us from shoving it into the turf and the great range of motion in the right wrist (and left) allows him to start the club low and inside him with such speed in the hands that the clubhead is delayed to the extent that the shaft bends (partly by hands leading the motion and partly because they started behind in the first place). When I say speed, we're not hitting the ball yet, use enough for the clubhead to feel a bit heavier and the shaft stressing.

While the right wrist is bending, the forearms, wrists and hands also work together to open the clubface and sit it on his very flat plane (at this stage anyway). He alluded to this many times.

So, we've got the club low and flat and open with the shaft bending. Relative to neutral or standard or "the norm" anyway. How do we bend it some more? How do we use it, increase it, let it guide our feel for both distance and accuracy? I'm sorry Dariusz but this is where I can't see where an automated swing can work. When I get on a run of consecutive birdies by knocking some pins out I do that through my mechanics but also my feel for both my swing and my particular shot. [u]E[/u][u]specially[/u] under pressure in a tournament that means anything to me, an automated swing isn't going to help because my body chemistry is very different from one situation to the next. In something that means something to you there are nerves and adrenaline and higher blood pressure etc etc. This makes you an entirely different beast to when you're playing a less important round or just practicing. I don't think we can just flick an on switch and have it go on auto-pilot. To a certain extent getting lost in minutae is detrimental but not there is a happy medium. If however you are trying to help guys break 80 (and not 60!!!!) then I think you will reach that goal. I would have thought you're well on the way.

Hey Chris
Thanks for being open to these ideas. I think it will help if we try and use plain English rather than TGM speak. I am a bit of a golf geek like most on here and so understand the terms, but many on here wouldn't be able to decipher the code we are speaking. I'll get to the other bends eventually, maybe (maybe definitely or....) but for now I need a rest. Typing things into the computer is worse than hitting a thousand balls at the moment. Oh well.

[Dariusz J.]

Very interesting post, Powerfade. My comments in bold, for what they're worth:

[quote name='powerfade66' timestamp='1280549827' post='2609549']
Hi Dariusz J
I have a different take on the first bend. I think it is partly due to trigger compression but that is not the whole story. Hogan starts with his hands downcocked or uncocked (or however you want to call it!) and from an upright posture. From here, I think at the start of his backswing he slightly downcocks a little bit more. Add to this his address position and, anatomically speaking, you have the wrists in the perfect position to bend the back of the right wrist to its fullest (put your hands up in front of you and experiment with bending the right wrist from varying degrees of **** - and i'm not talking about something your wife helps you with ). How does this help us? The downcock keeps the clubhead low, the upright posture stops us from shoving it into the turf and the great range of motion in the right wrist (and left) allows him to start the club low and inside him with such speed in the hands that the clubhead is delayed to the extent that the shaft bends (partly by hands leading the motion and partly because they started behind in the first place). When I say speed, we're not hitting the ball yet, use enough for the clubhead to feel a bit heavier and the shaft stressing.
While the right wrist is bending, the forearms, wrists and hands also work together to open the clubface and sit it on his very flat plane (at this stage anyway). He alluded to this many times.[/quote]

[b]OK, so in your opinion, shortly saying, the "trigger downcocking" is one of the crucial elements of reaching a low plane ? I hate the word "flat plane" because the word "flat" signifies an error to me. When the plane is parallel to the spine it never is flat.
As said, very interesting. [/b]

[quote]So, we've got the club low and flat and open with the shaft bending. Relative to neutral or standard or "the norm" anyway. How do we bend it some more? How do we use it, increase it, let it guide our feel for both distance and accuracy? I'm sorry Dariusz but this is where I can't see where an automated swing can work. When I get on a run of consecutive birdies by knocking some pins out I do that through my mechanics but also my feel for both my swing and my particular shot. [u]E[/u][u]specially[/u] under pressure in a tournament that means anything to me, an automated swing isn't going to help because my body chemistry is very different from one situation to the next. In something that means something to you there are nerves and adrenaline and higher blood pressure etc etc. This makes you an entirely different beast to when you're playing a less important round or just practicing. I don't think we can just flick an on switch and have it go on auto-pilot. To a certain extent getting lost in minutae is detrimental but not there is a happy medium. If however you are trying to help guys break 80 (and not 60!!!!) then I think you will reach that goal. I would have thought you're well on the way.
[/quote]

Thank you for kind words, mate. Indeed, my work is for weekend hacker, I'd be delighted if the partial automatism (that is surely reachable) allow them to fulfill Hogan's dream of scoring sometimes even in 70-ies. I would be an idiot if I thought that either human action can be fully automated or accomplished players wouldn't need more than biokinetics to score par or better.

Cheers

[supercharger]

The more confidence one has in his mechanics the less pressure he will feel no matter what the situation. Hogan trusted his mechanics because they are biokinetically sound and reliable, not to mention effecient. If the swing utilizes natural bio limits producing chain reactions as much as possible the less there is for the brain to have correct for these out of position feelings we get and correct on the fly in milliseconds which we do very well. There is no automatic swing as we perceive it. The movements in the human skeleton can be set up to be sequencing natural biokinetic events which in a way is automating the structure to be automatic like a machine. The muscles have to be rehearsed as with any movement. The brain will always play its role in overseeing and correction, but the less it has to correct the less it will be involved, thus the more relaxed you will be due to a consistent repeatable action. Pressure only exists if one puts it upon himself, usually when they are not confident in their ability when an oppurtune moment presents itself to achieve something they want.

[powerfade66]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1280583026' post='2609845']
Very interesting post, Powerfade. My comments in bold, for what they're worth:

[quote name='powerfade66' timestamp='1280549827' post='2609549']
Hi Dariusz J
I have a different take on the first bend. I think it is partly due to trigger compression but that is not the whole story. Hogan starts with his hands downcocked or uncocked (or however you want to call it!) and from an upright posture. From here, I think at the start of his backswing he slightly downcocks a little bit more. Add to this his address position and, anatomically speaking, you have the wrists in the perfect position to bend the back of the right wrist to its fullest (put your hands up in front of you and experiment with bending the right wrist from varying degrees of **** - and i'm not talking about something your wife helps you with ). How does this help us? The downcock keeps the clubhead low, the upright posture stops us from shoving it into the turf and the great range of motion in the right wrist (and left) allows him to start the club low and inside him with such speed in the hands that the clubhead is delayed to the extent that the shaft bends (partly by hands leading the motion and partly because they started behind in the first place). When I say speed, we're not hitting the ball yet, use enough for the clubhead to feel a bit heavier and the shaft stressing.
While the right wrist is bending, the forearms, wrists and hands also work together to open the clubface and sit it on his very flat plane (at this stage anyway). He alluded to this many times.[/quote]

[b]OK, so in your opinion, shortly saying, the "trigger downcocking" is one of the crucial elements of reaching a low plane ? I hate the word "flat plane" because the word "flat" signifies an error to me. When the plane is parallel to the spine it never is flat.
As said, very interesting. [/b]

[quote]So, we've got the club low and flat and open with the shaft bending. Relative to neutral or standard or "the norm" anyway. How do we bend it some more? How do we use it, increase it, let it guide our feel for both distance and accuracy? I'm sorry Dariusz but this is where I can't see where an automated swing can work. When I get on a run of consecutive birdies by knocking some pins out I do that through my mechanics but also my feel for both my swing and my particular shot. [u]E[/u][u]specially[/u] under pressure in a tournament that means anything to me, an automated swing isn't going to help because my body chemistry is very different from one situation to the next. In something that means something to you there are nerves and adrenaline and higher blood pressure etc etc. This makes you an entirely different beast to when you're playing a less important round or just practicing. I don't think we can just flick an on switch and have it go on auto-pilot. To a certain extent getting lost in minutae is detrimental but not there is a happy medium. If however you are trying to help guys break 80 (and not 60!!!!) then I think you will reach that goal. I would have thought you're well on the way.
[/quote]

Thank you for kind words, mate. Indeed, my work is for weekend hacker, I'd be delighted if the partial automatism (that is surely reachable) allow them to fulfill Hogan's dream of scoring sometimes even in 70-ies. I would be an idiot if I thought that either human action can be fully automated or accomplished players wouldn't need more than biokinetics to score par or better.

Cheers
[/quote]

My pleasure Dariusz. I think you've well and truly earnt them.

Yes I think downcocking is very important. And not necessarily having any noticable difference on the clubhead travel. But, it does have an effect on where it might have otherwise ended up. If thigs are left as they are, the momentum of the clubhead, and the natural sequence of movement of the body, will bend the right arm and **** the left wrist. I think if we fight this tendency then we get some very desirable outcomes. The downcocking is not the whole deal though...

While executing this downward pressure on the clubhead, the clubface need to roll open, because, if we didn't do this, it would be too low and get snagged by the turf.

Oh and thanks for the "very interesting" compliment. I hate to think how many thousands of golf posts you have read by now. It must mean something to lift your level of interest to "very".

[chris_golf]

I will go back to Mr. Hogan´s hip movement and I need some more bulb efects....

[attachment=634913:Hogan-ElasticBand.jpg]

I must admit that I never understood the drawings left and right of him.
Is he showing hipslant (backswing right hip heigh, downswing left hip heigh)???

Next question where I have my most difficult time now (coming from the reverse K setup):

This is how my hips are turning now:
[attachment=634914:PelvisDiagram1.jpg]

But how it looks Mr. Hogans left femoral head stayed there and then the body will react like
it does in Mr. Hogans backswing...

Saludos

Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1280594383' post='2610046']

This is how my hips are turning now:
[attachment=634914:PelvisDiagram1.jpg]

But how it looks Mr. Hogans left femoral head stayed there and then the body will react like
it does in Mr. Hogans backswing...

Saludos

Chris
[/quote]

Great post again Chris and good drawings.

What is not discussed a lot, is how to continue from that position. As I see it, the left hip should continue rotation toward the original ball position.

If we continue movement "left hip left" there, we get Our weight to heel and loose balance. For me it goes first to the left and continues rotating so it comes closer to the target line again. I use terms around and in, but it maybe says nothing without showing that move. Hope You get the idea.

[Guest]

Chris, The drawings to the left and right are showing the relation of the hips and how they lead the shoulders. It's a bird's eye view from above. The elastic band is stretched out by turning the hips to their full amount in the backswing. The torsion allows you to let her all go with the left hip snapping everything back. The hips can only be used in this manner when they are under tension or loaded up deeply against the inside of the right thigh.

[chris_golf]

Thank you trajectory,

I had to look 5 minutes to look on the pic left and right to identify the birdeye view...

How you can explain the hipsland if Mr. Hogan used only rotation and no lateral motion - I mean the belt line
inclination after impact ... For my part I can say it is due to my tailbonerelease
(I didn´t had an accident in my left leg)

[attachment=636574:HipslantAfterImpact.jpg]

And hopefully someone of the trolio followers can explain me if the left femoral head has in
his model to stay in the backswing on the same position or it moves with the rotation?

Saludos

Chris

[Guest]

The rotation going back IS the lateral motion.

[chris_golf]

[quote name='trajectory' timestamp='1280875393' post='2616287']
The rotation going back IS the lateral motion.



[/quote]

You are right, if I look on my backview elkington drill vid, I can see this very good - the rotation is going back...
And from the the caddy view it looks like a lateral motion...

[attachment=636649:Turning1.jpg][attachment=636650:Turning2.jpg]

Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1280877162' post='2616335']
[quote name='trajectory' timestamp='1280875393' post='2616287']
The rotation going back IS the lateral motion.



[/quote]

You are right, if I look on my backview elkington drill vid, I can see this very good - the rotation is going back...
And from the the caddy view it looks like a lateral motion...

[attachment=636649:Turning1.jpg][attachment=636650:Turning2.jpg]

Chris
[/quote]

Thats what I call 2D-illusion. And how many wrong thoughts it has gave to people for years. Lo-speed video cameras together with this 2D-illusion.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='trajectory' timestamp='1280875393' post='2616287']
The rotation going back IS the lateral motion.
[/quote]

Oh, no. This particular sentence I cannot absolutely agree to. This can only lead to something similar to a weak Clement "Hogan drill" procedure which might be a good drill for some but definitely did not mirror what Hogan did.
Hogan's linear motion in the hip area that happens before the upper body backswing ends is a pure automatic biophysical reaction to what happened under the pelvis a moment before. It is a reaction of his pelvis to the torques that have been built thanks to finding natural limitations and creating the firm rear side sequentially from the ground up. The overtorques in the ankle and knee joints that cause the rear femur guide the rear hip joint the only one way - the way Mr.Hogan wanted - also, we may add, the moment Mr.Hogan wanted (before completing the backswing).

BTW, I am of the opinion that Trolio did a good job from the physical point of view presenting the linear aspect as a reaction. Unfortunately, he was rather clueless how to explain it with anatomical terms and, therefore, to complete a very good work on Hogan's motion.

Cheers

[JD3]

Dariusz,

With all due respect, I've never seen anyone of the automatic (or semi-automatic crowd as it relates to hip movement) come within shouting distance of Hogan's extension. Even Trolio's work, which isn't bad, exhibits hip turn but is seriously lacking extension.

In the future, can anyone claiming to have Hogan's hip action nailed down please provide video of their own to support this?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1280917056' post='2617331']
Dariusz,

With all due respect, I've never seen anyone of the automatic (or semi-automatic crowd as it relates to hip movement) come within shouting distance of Hogan's extension. Even Trolio's work, which isn't bad, exhibits hip turn but is seriously lacking extension.

In the future, can anyone claiming to have Hogan's hip action nailed down please provide video of their own to support this?
[/quote]

JD, Trolio's motion is different that Hogan's because his linear motion of the hips is sort of artificially manufactured due to the reasons I mentioned above (not a reaction to natural limitations in hard strucure).
I am not a good model with my fat and untrained body, but using the principles of an automatic hips action (that is a reaction to an under-pelvis cascade of previous events) was never a problem to me - judge yourself:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYzlC7A294Y[/media]

The above vid is an old one - do not pay attention to the description about Tom Tomassello's priinciples - refers to a specific arms' motion only).

Cheers

[JD3]

First off, i think you have a nice swing, with no need for qualification.

But your extension falls well short of Hogan's.

Try this simple test: at setup place the cursor so it touches or points to the outside of your left hip. leave it there for the full swing and see where it points at the finish. Now do the same on this Hogan video:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D5oDen_qHM"]Hogan Swing[/url]

See how a good amount of Hogan's hips have moved ahead of the cursor? And your's almost none at all? I put forth the difference is mostly from lateral movement and extension.

[chris_golf]

Hello Dariusz,

for me as a Hogan fan - this is a very good hip movement, and I think what JD is speaking of in his terms
as "extension" are in my words "tailbonerelease" after impact the rotation goes in extension (tailbonerelease).
Hopefully we are meaning the same JD... and that is what I said in the beginning of my post that Mr. Hogan had
the most pronounced tailbonerelease (extension) and I would break my lumbar if I do this....
[attachment=636920:Hogan-back-follow-thru.jpg]

Chris

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1280923415' post='2617423']
First off, i think you have a nice swing, with no need for qualification.

But your extension falls well short of Hogan's.

Try this simple test: at setup place the cursor so it touches or points to the outside of your left hip. leave it there for the full swing and see where it points at the finish. Now do the same on this Hogan video:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D5oDen_qHM"]Hogan Swing[/url]

See how a good amount of Hogan's hips have moved ahead of the cursor? And your's almost none at all? I put forth the difference is mostly from lateral movement and extension.
[/quote]

C'mon, JD. How can you compare:
1. lateral motion of a driver swing with a short iron swing ??? it is obvious that the amount of the linear motion will be bigger the longer the club is (i.e. the farther back the rear leg is in the address/backswing phase);
2. FO vid with a rear view ??? it is obvious that the FO view brings an illusion of a much bigger linear shift because it focuses on the total movement of the lead hip in 3-D;
3. in order to see the real amount of the linear shift before transition, you should ALWAYS watch rear view and the REAR HIP JOINT motion, never lead one;
4. the camera should be stable (which isn't in my clip) and placing the cursor is not adequate method - I can assume you that my pre-transition linear motion is relatively noticeable;
5. Mr. Hogan was something like 1345 times better athlete, even after accident

The point is not to compare a weekend hacker to the best ballstriker in the history, but to analyze the similarities of the motion that would suggest that the principle is the same.

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1280926030' post='2617492']
Hello Dariusz,

for me as a Hogan fan - this is a very good hip movement, and I think what JD is speaking of in his terms
as "extension" are in my words "tailbonerelease" after impact the rotation goes in extension (tailbonerelease).
Hopefully we are meaning the same JD... and that is what I said in the beginning of my post that Mr. Hogan had
the most pronounced tailbonerelease (extension) and I would break my lumbar if I do this....
[attachment=636920:Hogan-back-follow-thru.jpg]

Chris
[/quote]

Chris, despite the pic is from a wood swing again that brings more momentum, of course Hogan had a great "tailbone release". In the discussion I focused the hip motion around transition, i.e. exactly what Trolio work refered to - the ability of performing a deep "tailbone release" is a function of a completely different thing than this what happened just before the backswing ended.

Cheers

[eightiron]

If the right shoulder is internally rotating in the transition and start down, how can the hip motion ever be the same?

[JD3]

@ Chris: Yes I think of as pelvis press or something like that so we're saying the same thing. The only caveat I'd add is that it doesn't occur after impact, for me it's all just sort of mixed in together during impact. Lateral movement and tailbone release are both just 2 sides of the same coin as "hips pressing forward."

@Dariusz: here's an example of a player hitting an 8 iron who I can assure you is very much aware of lateral movement and pelvis press/tailbone release:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjaV1H9letY"]8 Iron[/url]

Even if you reject my cursor test, one can clearly tell with the naked eye he gets far more extension than you.

Seriously, what is so wrong about someone remaining focused/aware until the finish? Am I the only one suspicious of a model that instructs one to setup properly, have a key trigger move and the rest will take care of itself?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280927570' post='2617542']
If the right shoulder is internally rotating in the transition and start down, how can the hip motion ever be the same?
[/quote]

Well, if we assume that the motion is guided from the ground up, what happens with shoulder joints has no effect on what hips are (or should be) doing, until the transition at least.

Cheers

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1280927922' post='2617561']@Dariusz: here's an example of a player hitting an 8 iron who I can assure you is very much aware of lateral movement and pelvis press/tailbone release:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjaV1H9letY"]8 Iron[/url]

Even if you reject my cursor test, one can clearly tell with the naked eye he gets far more extension than you.

[/quote]

But of course he's got more extension later on because he slides hips after transition - I thought we were speaking of the hips linear motion before transition in a real Hoganesque way, not a S&T way. The linear shift happens BEFORE transition. This rear hip joint shift done before the clubhead finished backswing; the shift when the hip is still high.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4[/media]

Cheers

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1280928804' post='2617596']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280927570' post='2617542']
If the right shoulder is internally rotating in the transition and start down, how can the hip motion ever be the same?]

Well, if we assume that the motion is guided from the ground up, what happens with shoulder joints has no effect on what hips are (or should be) doing, until the transition at least.

Cheers

Makes no sense to me Dariusz. Anyone can grasp how a different elbow location and right shoulder motion will change the hip motion and this is happening before transition, even well before backswing is complete, the ground ain't gonna do squat for that

[JD3]

@ Dariusz,

Fair enough, I was making a more general case against the many posters who claim to have nailed Hogan's pivot -- start to finish -- yet have never posted swing vids anything like it. Where it starts in transition is simple enough to regulate, it's the degree of lateral movement and extension that I'm after. The swing I posted was not to provide an S&T alternative, as there are a variety components an S&T purist would pick apart in it. Rather, it was to show how one's pivot/hip action can look when one remains focused/aware to the finish. Perhaps it's the case that automation is only good thru the transition and craps out somewhere in the downswing? As stated elsewhere, that's my concern. Getting back to Hogan, if you haven't captured him beyond transition, well then it's academic you haven't captured him.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280929824' post='2617639']
Makes no sense to me Dariusz. Anyone can grasp how a different elbow location and right shoulder motion will change the hip motion and this is happening before transition, even well before backswing is complete, the ground ain't gonna do squat for that
[/quote]

OK, Eight. If we presume that the rear shoulder or elbow are leaders and we presume some conscious motions of them - probably yes. But don't you think that when the whole rear side works in unisono leading the motion at 45* up and back, there are no much options left ?
I simply cannot see a reason (maybe because I am not a great player) why the motion of shoulder or elbow should destroy the natural motion of the rear hip...

Cheers


[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1280929992' post='2617649']
@ Dariusz,

Fair enough, I was making a more general case against the many posters who claim to have nailed Hogan's pivot -- start to finish -- yet have never posted swing vids anything like it. Where it starts in transition is simple enough to regulate, it's the degree of lateral movement and extension that I'm after. The swing I posted was not to provide an S&T alternative, as there are a variety components an S&T purist would pick apart in it. Rather, it was to show how one's pivot/hip action can look when one remains focused/aware to the finish. Perhaps it's the case that automation is only good thru the transition and craps out somewhere in the downswing? As stated elsewhere, that's my concern. Getting back to Hogan, if you haven't captured him beyond transition, well then it's academic you haven't captured him.
[/quote]

Ah, of course I agree, JD. I was talking about the phase until transition. Period.
And really, what happens later in my motion - my release (wrists, arms or tailbone) is different than Hogan's, because I am not able to introduce it into my motion on basis of automatic incorporation. It can be a proof that automating the transition is not enough to capture everything and we must dig in the dirt either I am dumb enough to figure it out. That's why I say many times that I can talk about partial automatism (including the automatism of the transition that I am able perform very easily).
The last thing I want is to give my swing motion as an example - but show me a more Hoganesque motion of the hips, please.

Cheers

[chris_golf]

I am really proud that the posters are getting more productive - even we don´t have the
same opinion and I only wish it would be more friendly and not a fight of opinion´s.

[b]There is a big possibility we can learn from each other - why not use it...[/b]

For my part I already learned a view things from this thread...
Thank you...

Chris

I am looking forward for more productive topics and that more posters have the guts to
show pics or vids with there interpretation of parts of Mr. Hogan´s swing.

[attachment=636934:past-impact.jpg]

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1280933187' post='2617784']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280929824' post='2617639']
Makes no sense to me Dariusz. Anyone can grasp how a different elbow location and right shoulder motion will change the hip motion and this is happening before transition, even well before backswing is complete, the ground ain't gonna do squat for that


OK, Eight. If we presume that the rear shoulder or elbow are leaders and we presume some conscious motions of them - probably yes. But don't you think that when the whole rear side works in unisono leading the motion at 45* up and back, there are no much options left ?
I simply cannot see a reason (maybe because I am not a great player) why the motion of shoulder or elbow should destroy the natural motion of the rear hip...

Cheers


NO , I don't see what you are writing about that the right shoulder / right elbow are leaders..... its just simply how a player loads the club is going to effect hip motion

NO I don't believe in the 45 deg up and back stuff whole right side leading the motion, its a bunch of crap and zero relevance to Hogan