Mr. Hogans 1st Bend

[chris_golf]

My search for how Mr. Hogan initiated his backswingl...

Thanks to powerfade66, I have some new inspiration to practice the start of the backswing and maybe it will be helpful for some Mr. Hogan fellowers... I knew this Drill since a long time (martin wiht DOCF is doing it as well) but actually many moons ago I had lessons with Peter Croker and he wanted me to do this drill. I must admit that I never understood it right until now... <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> Here my first attempt in slomo FO: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> Slomo DSL: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> 1st bend practice Face on normal speed: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> 1st bend practice Down the line normal speed: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> You just need a short pvc tube, and a camcorder... I had to use a my old midbody handposition at setup... It was not hard to hit the pipe in the backswing because I knew the drill, but I do it totally wrong and this, you can only evaluate on video. Mr. Hogan did it with creating space in front of him and he lowered his body at the same time without moving away from the ball. But anyway I hope It will be some inspiration for some Mr. Hogan fellowers... Chris P.S. Perfect practice for my rhythm...even sometimes the pipe went 15 yard backwards (stupid fast)...

[LYG]

Chris:

I THOUGHT I understood Five Lessons....but you all speak on a very high knowledge.

Didn't Hogan move (slightly) to the right, into the brace of a strong right leg....creating the DYNAMIC loading and torque?

Am I missing something?

Thanks, Chris, you are awesome.

Lawson

[powerfade66]

[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1280624235' post='2610581']
Chris:

I THOUGHT I understood Five Lessons....but you all speak on a very high knowledge.

Didn't Hogan move (slightly) to the right, into the brace of a strong right leg....creating the DYNAMIC loading and torque?

Am I missing something?

Thanks, Chris, you are awesome.

Lawson
[/quote]

yes, good observation. this helps to keep the club low at the start of the swing. it gives the club momentum - low, back and behind you - increases the bend (clubhead trailing hands due to midbody address and stays bent due to hands and wrists working such that clubhead is moving last/trailing), and sets the clubhead up with some speed before we disrupt its movement again, and, bend it some more.

[Ezgolfer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk

I do n't see no mops here...

[eightiron]

[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1280632648' post='2610792']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk[/media]

I do n't see no mops here...
[/quote]

totally agree.. the waggle is the opposite of the concept

[powerfade66]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280634363' post='2610837']
[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1280632648' post='2610792']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk[/media]

I do n't see no mops here...
[/quote]

totally agree.. the waggle is the opposite of the concept
[/quote]

further explanation of your opinion would be appreciated. probably depends what we're trying to achieve with the waggle. it's not always about getting the clubhead working first. we're not saying he wasn't trying to do that anyway. you can have this aim and still get some lag in the clubhead depending on how you do it. but then i'm just guessing this to be your argument. hopefully you can clarify this.

[Zico Martin]

[quote]further explanation of your opinion would be appreciated. probably depends what we're trying to achieve with the waggle. it's not always about getting the clubhead working first. we're not saying he wasn't trying to do that anyway. you can have this aim and still get some lag in the clubhead depending on how you do it. but then i'm just guessing this to be your argument. hopefully you can clarify this.
[/quote]
+1 - would like to hear the longer version if possible.

ZM

[JD3]

[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1280632648' post='2610792']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk

I do n't see no mops here...
[/quote]
Nice vid Ez. Curiously my post warning against mopping was deleted. Mops turn into lawn mowers. Leave that stuff for the (ever dwindling) Hardy-faithful.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280634363' post='2610837']
[

totally agree.. the waggle is the opposite of the concept
[/quote]



What about if the waggle is more related to the right elbow than hands and club head?

[eightiron]

[quote name='Zico Martin' timestamp='1280647332' post='2610998']
[quote]further explanation of your opinion would be appreciated. probably depends what we're trying to achieve with the waggle. it's not always about getting the clubhead working first. we're not saying he wasn't trying to do that anyway. you can have this aim and still get some lag in the clubhead depending on how you do it. but then i'm just guessing this to be your argument. hopefully you can clarify this.
[/quote]
+1 - would like to hear the longer version if possible.

ZM
[/quote]


I would say that his initial trigger , which Dariusz posts on regularly is already putting momentum into motion , no need for any dragging , resisting or pushing etc from the arms/hands to be actively involved.
Its clear in that footage that hogan is not float loading the club on takeaway , at least not adding to it with the arms ..if he did with his body motion his arm width would be increased ( be over-extended ) from his body. His waggle shows soft arms and elevates the clubhead first , so I don't see a low clubhead drag-away or such as his swing evolved , certainly earlier in his younger days it was there.
@powerfade , I can see where you are coming from in regard to your own swing , from memory your arm swing was good but your body motion needed some adjustment , so if changing the arm swing helped that , good ... but imop the hardest and most important aspect is changing the body motion , adjusting arms is easy

[powerfade66]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280656756' post='2611039']
[quote name='Zico Martin' timestamp='1280647332' post='2610998']
[quote]further explanation of your opinion would be appreciated. probably depends what we're trying to achieve with the waggle. it's not always about getting the clubhead working first. we're not saying he wasn't trying to do that anyway. you can have this aim and still get some lag in the clubhead depending on how you do it. but then i'm just guessing this to be your argument. hopefully you can clarify this.
[/quote]
+1 - would like to hear the longer version if possible.

ZM
[/quote]


I would say that his initial trigger , which Dariusz posts on regularly is already putting momentum into motion , no need for any dragging , resisting or pushing etc from the arms/hands to be actively involved.
Its clear in that footage that hogan is not float loading the club on takeaway , at least not adding to it with the arms ..if he did with his body motion his arm width would be increased ( be over-extended ) from his body. His waggle shows soft arms and elevates the clubhead first , so I don't see a low clubhead drag-away or such as his swing evolved , certainly earlier in his younger days it was there.
@powerfade , I can see where you are coming from in regard to your own swing , from memory your arm swing was good but your body motion needed some adjustment , so if changing the arm swing helped that , good ... but imop the hardest and most important aspect is changing the body motion , adjusting arms is easy
[/quote]


Can't get a basic JPG to upload, very frustrating.

As much as I'd like to have a forum dedicated to me (actually I wouldn't), it's not about me. I can't play golf at the moment so enjoying spending some extra time studying Hogan. I'm 6'3" so trying to pivot the same as a shorter man is probably out of the question although I am always willing to, and do, try new things.

Thanks for your reply though eight. For what it's worth, I don't buy into the shut clubface business on takeaway as any deliberate or conscious manouver as an end itself. I just think various factors caused it to open up a bit later than he was trying to and that this is not a bad thing. I like the effect on the shaft but not any shut face for the sake of it being shut or any deliberate maintenance or prolonging of any dragging feeling.

It all starts with his setup and where he moves the club and the effects thereof.

[Zico Martin]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280656756' post='2611039']
[quote name='Zico Martin' timestamp='1280647332' post='2610998']
[quote]further explanation of your opinion would be appreciated. probably depends what we're trying to achieve with the waggle. it's not always about getting the clubhead working first. we're not saying he wasn't trying to do that anyway. you can have this aim and still get some lag in the clubhead depending on how you do it. but then i'm just guessing this to be your argument. hopefully you can clarify this.
[/quote]
+1 - would like to hear the longer version if possible.

ZM
[/quote]


I would say that his initial trigger , which Dariusz posts on regularly is already putting momentum into motion , no need for any dragging , resisting or pushing etc from the arms/hands to be actively involved.
Its clear in that footage that hogan is not float loading the club on takeaway , at least not adding to it with the arms ..if he did with his body motion his arm width would be increased ( be over-extended ) from his body. His waggle shows soft arms and elevates the clubhead first , so I don't see a low clubhead drag-away or such as his swing evolved , certainly earlier in his younger days it was there.
@powerfade , I can see where you are coming from in regard to your own swing , from memory your arm swing was good but your body motion needed some adjustment , so if changing the arm swing helped that , good ... but imop the hardest and most important aspect is changing the body motion , adjusting arms is easy
[/quote]
@8 - much obliged.

ZM.

[chris_golf]

[b]A Drill is a Drill....
And a swing is a swing. End of the story.[/b]

IMOP this drill is only for a sensation that you can load the shaft quite early. How will you ever
feel this if you don´t exaggerate it? If I would own this feeling I had no need to exaggerate it , because
if you own it, you blend it to your backswing (look at the video Hogan 1stBend) and it will be not
visible.

I would be happy if anyone can explain this 1st foot of Mr. Hogan better and show me
on video how it works! Sure there are trillion ways to do a backswing. But we are here
on how Mr. Hogan did it, and I am not here to proof anything! I am here to learn - but then
you have to show me what you think how this 1st food of Mr. Hogan can happen without
footage of Mr. Hogan.

[b]Why we can not go one step ahead on this forum and instead discussing only Mr. Hogan´s
movements - we are trying to use his movements and showing them!

I would appreciate to discuss this topic more with people who contribute!
[/b]
Saludos

Chris

[attachment=635228:BenHoganP1,4.jpg]

[JD3]

It's called "Octogenerian" ... everyone's swing gets more hands/arms oriented as they get older and the body loses elasticity. Look at the legends hitting ceremonial tee shot at The Masters.

If not, can you please show me all the quotes from Hogan where he discussed dragging/mopping/lawn mower? Because I don't see the slightest bit of evidence in his own words or drawings that's the feel he was after. But I'm only a minor-Hogan historian at best, so I could have missed them.

[TeeAce]

There is many things that are confusing us in a golf swing. Mainly they are connected to confusion between action and reaction. What Our eyes see, our mind thinks it's an action. Thin how many people in the world are pulling arms to the neck to get club there, because that's what they see happening in good players swings. Even that those good players do just the opposite and try to keep club going low and laws of geometry makes the opposite happen.

It's same thing in backswing. We see the club going up and don't realize that the action is down. Back, in and low. Made with the combination of hips, and shoulders. When that triangle reaches it's maximum distance from the swing center, mass and energy turns it up. That's the simply explanation for that old and ever working drill, which gets even better when all people understand actions.

[chris_golf]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1280663626' post='2611093']
It's called "Octogenerian" ... everyone's swing gets more hands/arms oriented as they get older and the body loses elasticity. Look at the legends hitting ceremonial tee shot at The Masters.
[/quote]

Thank you JD3,

"Octogenerian" now I know how to call it. That is true...

I am not a Hogan historian, but it looks that even at age 75 for Mr. Hogan his start of the swing
was even more important than all the other pieces. He didn´t bow anymore or stayed low thru the shot,
but his start of his swing and backswing were his priority. For me this is evidence enough that this part
of his swing was important.

I can´t quote Mr. Hogan about this move, but I am sure it has nothing to do with any dragging, mopping, lawn mower move
we know today.
It is his first move and I will call it 1st bend. And how he did it, I don´t know - I was hoping for some support here...

Chris

[chris_golf]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1280664457' post='2611103']
There is many things that are confusing us in a golf swing. Mainly they are connected to confusion between action and reaction. What Our eyes see, our mind thinks it's an action. Thin how many people in the world are pulling arms to the neck to get club there, because that's what they see happening in good players swings. Even that those good players do just the opposite and try to keep club going low and laws of geometry makes the opposite happen.

It's same thing in backswing. We see the club going up and don't realize that the action is down. Back, in and low. Made with the combination of hips, and shoulders. When that triangle reaches it's maximum distance from the swing center, mass and energy turns it up. That's the simply explanation for that old and ever working drill, which gets even better when all people understand actions.
[/quote]

Yes teeace,

that is my point as well. What we see has maybe nothing to do with the real actions involved... and to understand these actions I post here.

Why not anyone can say: I have no clue Chris, but I will help you to find out?

Chris

[TeeAce]

There is many things that are confusing us in a golf swing. Mainly they are connected to confusion between action and reaction. What Our eyes see, our mind thinks it's an action. Thin how many people in the world are pulling arms to the neck to get club there, because that's what they see happening in good players swings. Even that those good players do just the opposite and try to keep club going low and laws of geometry makes the opposite happen.

 

It's same thing in backswing. We see the club going up and don't realize that the action is down. Back, in and low. Made with the combination of hips, and shoulders. When that triangle reaches it's maximum distance from the swing center, mass and energy turns it up. That's the simply explanation for that old and ever working drill, which gets even better when all people understand actions.

 

Yes teeace,

 

that is my point as well. What we see has maybe nothing to do with the real actions involved... and to understand these actions I post here.

 

Why not anyone can say: I have no clue Chris, but I will help you to find out?

 

Chris

 

Chris

 

When working with my players (not with regular students) they quite often call me back. Sometimes after two days, sometimes after two years asking questions about what I said. After two years they don't often even remember that I've said that, but it has ben there somewhere in their mind. That's my way to get them to find things themselves and maybe that's a bad habit that follows me in these kind of forums. I ask more questions than give straight answers.

 

For me the answer for 1st bend is in my posting here, but there is bit more.

 

I think there is two kind of action in golf swing. There is an action which I call power action and there is action that I call guiding action. The power action is what moves the mass and guiding action is to guide it to the right way.

 

In this case for example power action is the movement of hips and shoulders, and because they are the inner circle parts, the club head is lagging a bit. I think there is no guiding action in the first moments of back swing and it comes little later. I also feel that the waggle is the guiding action. The waggle where right elbow is pulled to right hip and which makes happen all we see in hands and arms.

 

So in the beginning of the back swing there is only movement of hips and shoulders which are starting the club back about straight and low. Really soon after that movement has started the guiding action is pulling the right elbow and power action still continues the sam way it started. Back and low.

 

With those actions and laws of geometry and physics together we can see that hands and club start to come in, wrist angle is produced without helping and the club swings where it should. There is no movement to lift anything up, it's an reaction. If we continue to do that move (specially pull the elbow) during all the swing, what we get? And I really mean whole swing, not only back swing.

 

Now I have to apologize again my style, but I want You to think and try that for a while

 

 

 

[Diz]

chris, I would rather have a little of that lagy feel of the clubhead moving inward and by the torso / soft arms then the clubhead getting a lead on the shaft to early and flung under the right forearm, I never had success that way.....In the mexico footage I see eights point of the elevation of the shaft..... I just wouldnt get to disconnected with the right arm,the shaft does find a way up that forearm for a better plane....tough call,somewhere in the middle is what I strive for , u dont wont to get to slashy or overrotated...good luck ... i like your hardwork ....

diz

[LYG]

Chris' original close up video (Hogan's feet and knees) of first 12-18 inches of backswing....


- Sure looks to me like the WEIGHT IS MOVING SLIGHTLY BACK to the right foot

- Also, the clubface is staying really LOW TO THE GROUND...due to his extension (arms) going back


Thoughts?

Lawson

[Guest]

Turning the hips on the backswing has the EFFECT of keeping the club lower going back. C'mon guys, in a championship caliber golf swing the hips are cleared on the forward swing pivot and the club stays low producing a shallow longer divot. Backswing is the same. Turn hips back to the max as you swing back, turn hips to max as you swing forward. Try to pose arm or wrist positions or resist and you'll pick the club straight up. Extend your arms artificially to make a low and slow backswing and you destroy the chain of connection. I promise this is the last time I annoy everyone with my infatuation of the hips and how EVERYTHING moves back together with them.......to the fullest extent. It's so blatantly obvious in all of his swings.

[dream_stryker]

This should be a good thread. The low and laggy takeaway is more Mr Bobby Jones than Hogan and shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Jones used this takeaway to setup shaft bending on the downswing....Mr Hogan chose another way. Keep in mind that Jones' choice in takeaway was more than likely influenced by hickory shafts at the time. Would he have used the same technique if he came along in the late 40's 50's?....probably not. At any rate....this takeaway IMO is most effective for folks that want a pure left-sided swing of the clubhead. I don't believe it as effective or necessary for those who 's hitting action has right side leverage built into it. I've seen a few Hogan swings with this motion.....but not many. If I had to guess...used this when he wanted to throw the ball higher than he normally did.

Looking forward to the where this thread ends up...good topic Chris-golf.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

it wouldn't surprise me if he never even hit the ball in the first close up. you might gain insight from this clip but be i'd be very careful about what you decide to see, ...its a very poor choice of swing model, he's old, in pain, and edited like a stephen seagal flick.

[powerfade66]

[quote name='trajectory' timestamp='1280707085' post='2612062']
Turning the hips on the backswing has the EFFECT of keeping the club lower going back. C'mon guys, in a championship caliber golf swing the hips are cleared on the forward swing pivot and the club stays low producing a shallow longer divot. Backswing is the same. Turn hips back to the max as you swing back, turn hips to max as you swing forward. Try to pose arm or wrist positions or resist and you'll pick the club straight up. Extend your arms artificially to make a low and slow backswing and you destroy the chain of connection. I promise this is the last time I annoy everyone with my infatuation of the hips and how EVERYTHING moves back together with them.......to the fullest extent. It's so blatantly obvious in all of his swings.
[/quote]

a decent portion of arrogance with this post! aside from the fact that I disagree with it. you won't pick the club straight up unless you make a movement with the hands and arms that causes this. to think the arms and hands just go along for the ride (I think that's what you're saying), is nice in theory, but not in reality in my opinion.

Those who kept the clubhead lowest on the throughswing eg Trevino and Nelson, went laterally with their hips and used the hands a little through the ball. Same goes for the backswing.

[chris_golf]

[b]This thread is getting now more in the direction what I aimed for....thank you for posting - there are some helpful posts...[/b] <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sJ6bGDDJDo0&hl=de_DE&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sJ6bGDDJDo0&hl=de_DE&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object> [b]This is one of my favourite videos, because in the beginning it looks like we can see the original swing rhythm and speed of Mr. Hogans swing... You can see it on the movements of the other persons in the backround - most videos are slowed down or speed up for whatever reason.[/b] [b]His backswing is quite fast and that gave me the inspiration that he is not guiding or doing something to have a muscle controlled backswing - he is giving some impuls and then he is loading something in this first 3 foot of his backswing. And I am after this! Since I want to start in my own swing like Mr. Hogan I found out that there are not many informations out there. Most are referring he is doing a one-piece takeaway etc, etc....... others are dragging and shutting the face... others are rolling only the left forearm etc.... I believe he is doing something different and more like the Bruce Lee 1inch punch (was it actually 6 inch!) movement right from the beginning - how, I still don´t know - what we know is that every golfer loads his accu#3 in a direction to hit staight, draws or fade it in this first part of the swing and I want your opinion what he is doing in this first part of the swing... Hopefully in the future I can show you my 2nd attempt, how I think Mr. Hogan did his 1st bend and sure it will be different like the first try.... Chris P.S. I don´t want do be a clone of Mr. Hogan, but I want his dynamics... and there he was lightyears ahead. Hmm, and yes I must admit that he had the coooolest swing I ever witnessed.[/b]

[Guest]

Look at the .30 mark and tell me honestly what you see happening there?

[grahler]

I think if you are referring to the first slight 'bend' in the SHAFT in the video the loading is the result of the application of force. Breaking one's wrists and letting the club lag behind is cushioning the shaft from the force of the torso turningback. IMO the loading you see is the result of turning back with the core with FIRM wrists-intention is not to let the club lag. Firm wrists transfer the energy to the shaft. BTW cool swing action you have-Are you trying to duplicate Hogan or make the best scoring move for yourself via Hogan?

[powerfade66]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1280804109' post='2614571']
I think if you are referring to the first slight 'bend' in the SHAFT in the video the loading is the result of the application of force. Breaking one's wrists and letting the club lag behind is cushioning the shaft from the force of the torso turningback. IMO the loading you see is the result of turning back with the core with FIRM wrists-intention is not to let the club lag. Firm wrists transfer the energy to the shaft. BTW cool swing action you have-Are you trying to duplicate Hogan or make the best scoring move for yourself via Hogan?


[/quote]

i think firm wrists will create the opposite effect. firm wrists will keep everything together and have the arms, hands and club work at a similar RPM. i agree that the greatest lag in the shaft will not come until any speed is created by the pivot, but not with firm wrists. i'm not saying you need especially soft wrists, just not firm wrists. or should i say, FIRM wrists, as you put it.

i'm also not advocating a really loose swing. good things are normally best in moderation (although some i confess are better in moderate excess, or moderate overabundance, or something). i'm not saying we want to swing like bobby jones. although it strikes me as a bit more than mere coincidence that some of the guys that grew up playing hickory and then switched to steel seemed to find their way to an efficient and powerful swing a bit better than today's players. there's not a whole lot of grace out there. or as high a percentage of guys that shoot the lights out week in week out and then retire early to build ranches and things like that.

[Guest]

I also think it's important to note a brisk backswing motion with a heavier club gets the wrists set early. Also interesting, is the hogan concentration drill he does on the beach. THERE IS NO SWINGING MOMENTUM GOING BACK......Hogan is forced to use (raise) his arms, hands, club unit up higher to a position that looks a lot like everyone else due to the lack of momentum .30 shows how he does it IMO.

[powerfade66]

[quote name='trajectory' timestamp='1280869765' post='2616095']
I also think it's important to note a brisk backswing motion with a heavier club gets the wrists set early. Also interesting, is the hogan concentration drill he does on the beach. THERE IS NO SWINGING MOMENTUM GOING BACK......Hogan is forced to use (raise) his arms, hands, club unit up higher to a position that looks a lot like everyone else due to the lack of momentum .30 shows how he does it IMO.
[/quote]

i think this is where i leave the discussion, screaming is not civilized, whether verbally (in person) or through a keyboard. Hogan does not set as early as the modern Leadbetter style early set like a Faldo or Price and his less successful guys since then. it seems he's not getting as many guys with talent anymore. because it's not a very good way to swing a club in my opinion. Faldo and Price had the talent before they went to Leadbetter. then Norman followed and it stuffed him up. and then he hasn't had any really good players since.

i believe ben hogan swings the club better than any player in the history of the game. i don't think he just relied on his body doing everything for him. he didn't have passive arms and hands. he knew what they were doing. you can pick this up from his personality as much as anything. he didn't leave anything to chance, and, he enjoyed working on his game so much that experimenting with all the different possibilities was the great passion of his life. anyway, good luck with that dog wags the tail approach. it does supply most of the power and i'm not saying the body isn't the engine; just don't neglect all the other elements of the wonderful thing that is... the golf swing.