Hogan leverage magic - Pitch to punch elbow = 3 right hands wish??

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1345048618' post='5476730']
I don't know why you would focus on old man Hogan over early Hogan anyways. His best swings post secret pre-accident (and even right after his accident I think) he is clearly in an extreme pitch position. Doesn't that say enough?
[/quote]

I don't understand what extreme pitch is then. When I look at those swings, even pre accident post secret swings, he looks much less pitch at impact than he was pre-secret.

Tiger 2012 is what I would call extreme pitch. But Hogan just looks like his right shoulder internally rotated through impact in all post secret swings.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1345048840' post='5476752']
@Tylerdurden

You are using the terms "pitch" and "punch" elbow to learn/study about Hogan and then you call TGM nonsense? I don't get it. The terms "pitch" and "punch" elbows are invented by TGM. Then they became of widespread use. That's quite "sorta" hypocritical for me, IMHO. That is why I have so much respect for TGM because they have brought out variables/options that would not have otherwise been available to golfers for analyzing purposes.

Anyway...TGM defines punch as on the side of the torso, pitch otherwise. That's what Gilly09 is saying (Gilly please correct me if I'm wrong). If you want to re-define punch elbow as being IRRS, why not just say IRRS instead of punch elbow?

IMO, you have to know what shot Hogan is hitting in the pics/vids you are analyzing. Lets say a fade vs a draw. Hogan's hips will be more in extension/open/ahead for a fade, IMO, so naturally it will look less pitch or look like its already in punch (relative to the side of the torso). But actually its just that the hips are more open relative to the torso. The torso reference point shouldn't change. So even if it now looks on the side of the hips, its actually still in front of the torso, not on the side of the torso, not below the R shoulder. If its a draw, where the hips turns later/slower/less aggressively, it will look more pitch rather than punch because the hips are less open relative to the torso/R shoulder. Maybe a better definition of punch vs pitch should be whether the R elbow is directly below the R shoulder along the axis of the vertical spine/torso looking at the torso/R shoulder DTL.

So, IMO, Hogan went from pitch to less pitched or more like looking punch. People that needs to get into true punch (R elbow directly below the R shoulder) needs it as a compensation or to correct an over plane clubhead. An alternative to humping the goat or lifting the head/upper center. Like pulling the clubhead so that you won't whiff or shank or hit the ball on the heel of the clubface.

Did Hogan internally rotated his R shoulder? Mmmmmmm...have you ever tried having a pitch elbow on top of BS, then unbend the R elbow in DS while keeping the R shoulder externally rotated? You just can't, otherwise your L hand will come off the R hand. You don't have to intend the IRRS though.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Yes I've probably been over critical of TGM because I prefer more strait forward definitions and was just turned off by most of the TGM tour swings I've seen. So when I see a bunch of bogus TGM swings and a bunch of hard to understand terms instead of describing things in a more strait forward way, I deem the book nonsense. Even though it probably isn't.

Anyway, thanks for the post. Makes sense. You say:
Did Hogan internally rotated his R shoulder? Mmmmmmm...have you ever tried having a pitch elbow on top of BS, then unbend the R elbow in DS while keeping the R shoulder externally rotated? You just can't, otherwise your L hand will come off the R hand. You don't have to intend the IRRS though.

I get your point but I disagree. I can hold my right shoulder in external rotation (which is what I thought I had to do through impact) and let the right arm straiten if you drive your eblow toward the navel. I didn't (and likely still don't) fully understand this concept, so I didn't realize that if you do this you'll leave the club face WAY open and hit it a mile right. Maybe that's why tiger has a super strong grip now.

[tylerdurden]

Also HG101 -

I agree you probably don't need to intend on having internal right shoulder rotation through impact. But I think it's important for me at this juncture because I've been trying to hold external shoulder rotation basically forever. And my point is that holding external rotation of right shoulder through impact can be damaging to release pattern and the pivot because it almost forces you to back out and flip stall.

[ej002]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345049806' post='5476858']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1345048618' post='5476730']
I don't know why you would focus on old man Hogan over early Hogan anyways. His best swings post secret pre-accident (and even right after his accident I think) he is clearly in an extreme pitch position. Doesn't that say enough?
[/quote]

I don't understand what extreme pitch is then. When I look at those swings, even pre accident post secret swings, he looks much less pitch at impact than he was pre-secret.

Tiger 2012 is what I would call extreme pitch. But Hogan just looks like his right shoulder internally rotated through impact in all post secret swings.
[/quote]

Put it this way, the right elbow cannot be leading the hands at impact, I have seen a picture of that once and it is goofy as hell looking. At some point, the right elbow stops leading, it is just a matter of when and the sequence. His right elbow gets into deep pitch pretty early and stays there longer than most. IMO of course... Looking at stills doesn't help alot, it is kind of the whole picture type of thing. I am not sure there is much of an argument on this one (as the terms are currenlty defined), but if I am wrong, can someone point me out? I have pictures on my home desk top, if I remember I will post them later.

[tofur99]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1345048884' post='5476758']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1345041293' post='5475918']
The "3 right hands" comment is too often taken as a stand alone, when in fact, in 5L it has very relevent context that is too easily forgotten:


[color=#000000]T[/color]
[quote]
[color=#000000]The great value, as I see it, of thinking in terms of this joint two[size=2]-[/size]hand action is that it keeps the left hand driving all the time. During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. They continue to supinate throughout the rest of the swing. The sequence drawings below will describe the exact nature of this gradual supination much more clearly than words can.[/color]

[color=#000000]In the sequence below, there is one position of such signal importance that it warrants closeup study. This is the position of the left wrist and hand at the actual moment of impact.[/color]


[color=#000000]AT IMPACT THE BACK OF THE LEFT HAND FACES TOWARD YOUR TARGET. THE WRIST[size=2]-[/size]BONE IS DEFINITELY RAISED. IT POINTS TO THE TARGET AND, AT THE MOMENT THE BALL IS CONTACTED, IT IS OUT IN FRONT, NEARER TO THE TARGET THAN ANY PART OF THE HAND. When the left wrist is in this position, the left hand will not check or interrupt the speed with which your clubhead is traveling. There’s no danger either that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over. It can’t. As far as applying power goes, I wish that I had three right hands![/color]
[/quote]


Caps are exactly as in the book (Hogan's emphasis).
[/quote]

i'll stand by my interpretation. He basically goes off on a tangent when he makes that comment at the end. He cleary didn't want to flip the club over, so why would he want the force of three right hands? if Hogan had a helping hand, he could create a torsion with his body and build up a ton of potential energy on the backswing.
[/quote]

hogan mentions that when your left hand is working properly you can't overpower it with the right hand. So as far as applying power, he wished he had a stronger/more right hands. He even mentions that, in the quote, you just read. "there is no danger either that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over".

personally I think he along with any other human being with a powerful and accurate swing goes into internal rotation just before impact. Staying externally rotated (in right shoulder) all the way through is silly. That's like trying to throw a baseball without releasing your hand past your elbow, makes no sense, you'd be negating all the built up potential energy and speed when you need it most.

[IH82BOGEY]

Film yourselves from dtl throwing a ball half side arm and half underhand a la page 97 in 5L. You cant do it if you are stacked on the left side. You have to begin with your weight on the right with the lower body leading (think of the infield throw and how the weight flows). Now try it by moving your weight into the right leg (not over) and maintain the angle of the right leg. Hello pitch elbow. A better description would be what is called 4 barell hittting because there seems to be some left pull as well. In my opinion, Mr. Hogan is more right sided in his pivot point than some realize. Look at the Coleman video of his slow motion routine. He seems to stay on the right angled leg until the momentum of the right side goes through as if in a throwing motion.

[tylerdurden]

[sup][quote name='tofur99' timestamp='1345057162' post='5477606']
personally I think he along with any other human being with a powerful and accurate swing goes into internal rotation just before impact. Staying externally rotated (in right shoulder) all the way through is silly. That's like trying to throw a baseball without releasing your hand past your elbow, makes no sense, you'd be negating all the built up potential energy and speed when you need it most.
[/quote][/sup]
[sup] [/sup]
[sup]Word up.[/sup]

[tylerdurden]

Put it this way, the right elbow cannot be leading the hands at impact, I have seen a picture of that once and it is goofy as hell looking. At some point, the right elbow stops leading, it is just a matter of when and the sequence. His right elbow gets into deep pitch pretty early and stays there longer than most. IMO of course... Looking at stills doesn't help alot, it is kind of the whole picture type of thing. I am not sure there is much of an argument on this one (as the terms are currenlty defined), but if I am wrong, can someone point me out? I have pictures on my home desk top, if I remember I will post them later.


I agree. I guess I think this is a big deal for me cause I was subconciously trying to lead with the elbow the whole way.

[crapula]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1345041293' post='5475918']
The "3 right hands" comment is too often taken as a stand alone, when in fact, in 5L it has very relevent context that is too easily forgotten:


[color=#000000]T[/color]
[quote]
[color=#000000]The great value, as I see it, of thinking in terms of this joint two[size=2]-[/size]hand action is that it keeps the left hand driving all the time. During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. They continue to supinate throughout the rest of the swing. The sequence drawings below will describe the exact nature of this gradual supination much more clearly than words can.[/color]

[color=#000000]In the sequence below, there is one position of such signal importance that it warrants closeup study. This is the position of the left wrist and hand at the actual moment of impact.[/color]


[color=#000000]AT IMPACT THE BACK OF THE LEFT HAND FACES TOWARD YOUR TARGET. THE WRIST[size=2]-[/size]BONE IS DEFINITELY RAISED. IT POINTS TO THE TARGET AND, AT THE MOMENT THE BALL IS CONTACTED, IT IS OUT IN FRONT, NEARER TO THE TARGET THAN ANY PART OF THE HAND. When the left wrist is in this position, the left hand will not check or interrupt the speed with which your clubhead is traveling. There’s no danger either that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over. It can’t. As far as applying power goes, I wish that I had three right hands![/color]
[/quote]


Caps are exactly as in the book (Hogan's emphasis).
[/quote]

I ignored the 3 right hands comment. For a guy that fought a hook for so long, he should have wished for 3 left hands (maybe that's part of the secret; he had 10 hands and wished he had two less right hands).

[tofur99]

[quote name='IH82BOGEY' timestamp='1345058131' post='5477696']
Film yourselves from dtl throwing a ball half side arm and half underhand a la page 97 in 5L. You cant do it if you are stacked on the left side. You have to begin with your weight on the right with the lower body leading (think of the infield throw and how the weight flows). Now try it by moving your weight into the right leg (not over) and maintain the angle of the right leg. Hello pitch elbow. A better description would be what is called 4 barell hittting because there seems to be some left pull as well. In my opinion, Mr. Hogan is more right sided in his pivot point than some realize. Look at the Coleman video of his slow motion routine. He seems to stay on the right angled leg until the momentum of the right side goes through as if in a throwing motion.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is one must wind up behind the ball, noticeably into their braced right leg in order for this pitch elbow, free ride down type move to happen? What stuck out to me watching that hogan instructional clip is in his first practice swings demonstrating the lower body move. He really winds up "behind" the ball, but without really moving off it a ton. The move is less exaggerated when he swings but it's still there.

[IH82BOGEY]

[quote name='tofur99' timestamp='1345064089' post='5478490']
[quote name='IH82BOGEY' timestamp='1345058131' post='5477696']
Film yourselves from dtl throwing a ball half side arm and half underhand a la page 97 in 5L. You cant do it if you are stacked on the left side. You have to begin with your weight on the right with the lower body leading (think of the infield throw and how the weight flows). Now try it by moving your weight into the right leg (not over) and maintain the angle of the right leg. Hello pitch elbow. A better description would be what is called 4 barell hittting because there seems to be some left pull as well. In my opinion, Mr. Hogan is more right sided in his pivot point than some realize. Look at the Coleman video of his slow motion routine. He seems to stay on the right angled leg until the momentum of the right side goes through as if in a throwing motion.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is one must wind up behind the ball, noticeably into their braced right leg in order for this pitch elbow, free ride down type move to happen? What stuck out to me watching that hogan instructional clip is in his first practice swings demonstrating the lower body move. He really winds up "behind" the ball, but without really moving off it a ton. The move is less exaggerated when he swings but it's still there.
[/quote]

IMOP, the best evidence of Mr. Hogan's intentions are his slow motion routines, especially Coleman. I think the dynamic result of the slow motion routine at speed yields different alignments and results. I like to experiment with combining what he said and what he did. For me, a throwing motion with the right arm as on page 97 of 5L combined with the slow motion intentions in Coleman, at speed, results in pitch elbow until release dtl. He is behind the ball, into (not on) his right side, shoulders on a constant axis, pivoting on the right side as if a shortstop making a play to first. Exactly as he wrote.

[Jobu]

This is a lousy swing, probably 30% effort. Zero right arm involvement and no swing thoughts. If i add right arm into my swing, my elbow stays pinned. Figure out how to use your right arm, i've been hinting at it in my previous posts in this thread.

[url="http://youtu.be/XBn8ON0wyhE"]http://youtu.be/XBn8ON0wyhE[/url]

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1345131344' post='5482682']
This is a lousy swing, probably 30% effort. Zero right arm involvement and no swing thoughts. If i add right arm into my swing, my elbow stays pinned. Figure out how to use your right arm, i've been hinting at it in my previous posts in this thread.

[media=]http://youtu.be/XBn8ON0wyhE[/media]
[/quote]

Lol how was the ball flight on that one???

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1345131344' post='5482682']
This is a lousy swing, probably 30% effort. Zero right arm involvement and no swing thoughts. If i add right arm into my swing, my elbow stays pinned. Figure out how to use your right arm, i've been hinting at it in my previous posts in this thread.

[media=]http://youtu.be/XBn8ON0wyhE[/media]
[/quote]

30% effort?! step aside Jamie Sadlowski, theres a new sheriff in town

[farmer]

Tyler, I've seen your swing. You have a fine swing. Forget the Hogan swing and own the Tyler swing. You're not going to be Hogan, you will not have his swing. Trying to dissect a complicated chain of actions and then trying to fit into those positions will cause you to eventually to wear a Hogan hat made of tinfoil. My guess is that he focused on how he wanted the swing to feel rather than positions.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1345226627' post='5490004']
Tyler, I've seen your swing. You have a fine swing. Forget the Hogan swing and own the Tyler swing. You're not going to be Hogan, you will not have his swing. Trying to dissect a complicated chain of actions and then trying to fit into those positions will cause you to eventually to wear a Hogan hat made of tinfoil. My guess is that he focused on how he wanted the swing to feel rather than positions.
[/quote]

Lol thanks man.

I'm honestly just trying to get better, and I've never been very naturally talented (whatever that means), so I have to do it through better mechanics. I just try to use Hogan and slicefixer students as a model because I like that release pattern the best. And I'm still working on my action because I'm still about 50% flipper, especially on my bad days, and I HATE the feeling of the club rolling through impact. I'm probably brain washed at this point.

And I know I'm not going to be Hogan or have his swing (I've cried to sleep many nights for this very reason), but I think I can get more Hoganish through impact and I think that'll make me better (as it already has).

[dairic]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1345226627' post='5490004']
Tyler, I've seen your swing. You have a fine swing. Forget the Hogan swing and own the Tyler swing. You're not going to be Hogan, you will not have his swing. Trying to dissect a complicated chain of actions and then trying to fit into those positions will cause you to eventually to wear a Hogan hat made of tinfoil. My guess is that he focused on how he wanted the swing to feel rather than positions.
[/quote]

I've been wondering about his too. So many of us study to death videos and everything written about hogan. We do slicefixer 9 to 3 drills, and debate the most subtle of points of his swing.

Wouldn't a better approach be to follow in his footsteps by doing the things he did which led to him discovering his swing? I'm sure this didn't involve YouTube, slow motion video, track man, Internet forums, PGA instructor lessons, and the ability to quote encyclopedia texarcana at will.

In other words, wouldn't it be better to study his process rather than his results?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1345233637' post='5490690']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1345226627' post='5490004']
Tyler, I've seen your swing. You have a fine swing. Forget the Hogan swing and own the Tyler swing. You're not going to be Hogan, you will not have his swing. Trying to dissect a complicated chain of actions and then trying to fit into those positions will cause you to eventually to wear a Hogan hat made of tinfoil. My guess is that he focused on how he wanted the swing to feel rather than positions.
[/quote]

I've been wondering about his too. So many of us study to death videos and everything written about hogan. We do slicefixer 9 to 3 drills, and debate the most subtle of points of his swing.

Wouldn't a better approach be to follow in his footsteps by doing the things he did which led to him discovering his swing? I'm sure this didn't involve YouTube, slow motion video, track man, Internet forums, PGA instructor lessons, and the ability to quote encyclopedia texarcana at will.

In other words, wouldn't it be better to study his process rather than his results?
[/quote]

Agree 100%, actually about 80% because Hogan himself said he wished he could've had a video cause it would've helped him get to where he needed to be faster.

Anyway, I only post on here while I am either chained to my desk (currently) or its night time and my range is closed and the lights are out. Otherwise, believe me, I am copying the process, minus the morning bacon .

[hoganfan924]

Tyler,

Seems like you've made some good progress. Just don't get so obsessive about it that you forget to play the GAME and MAKE SHOTS. I literally spent 2 hours on the phone last night "talking a friend down" who'd become a bit of a head case in his search for swing perfection and now is stuggling to play and to pull the trigger on the course.

Having spent so much time with Slicefixer, I've had the opportunity to play, practice and converse with a few professional golfers. Their mindset is very different. They fully appreciate that golf is a game, and that the full swing is only a means to an end and a relatively small component of that end.

I suggest finishing each range session playing a few holes in your mind (and hitting the necessary shots) or hitting 20-30 balls in target only mode, completely forgetting about mechanics.

[tylerdurden]

Thanks for the compliments/suggestions. Especially nice for this highly critical forum lol.

I'm going to get back to playing golf and what not soon. Never was trying to copy Hogan anyway, just want to look like a stud through impact and be able to repeat it.

I'm actually getting a lot closer now too. Best range season and swings I've ever made tonight. Not there yet but it's better. Hopefully I don't lose it. The plan is to go see Slicefixer himself after I fix what I already know is messed up in my swing.

[ALIF]

Tyler, I've seen your swing video and you actually bear an erie resemblance to his swing. You have a pure, smooth motion. If you can putt and are mentally tough, I would expect you to do very well in state level and hold your own in regional level events. It's good to keep working at it though. Just don't drive yourself crazy:)

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1345262141' post='5492948']
Tyler, I've seen your swing video and you actually bear an erie resemblance to his swing. You have a pure, smooth motion. If you can putt and are mentally tough, I would expect you to do very well in state level and hold your own in regional level events. It's good to keep working at it though. Just don't drive yourself crazy:)
[/quote]



I would say that working on the mental aspect of the game would be just as beneficial for him now............ routine, shot visualization, breathing, target focus, shot shaping, strategy........... saying that I don't know what his goals are........... becoming a Hogan obsessive, or focusing on playing competitive golf.

The swing looks pretty good but perhaps it could be broken down 50:50............... sometimes not best to solely focus on swing mechanics in pursuit of 'perfection', whatever that is.

Easy for me to say though, I already swing like Ben Hogan

[eightiron]

More rubbish , yes pitch is Tgm , morad use elbow location 1 , 2, 3 . Hogan is 1, 1, 1 , 1 infinity

[SunkTheBirdie]

I thought this thread might benefit from this
http://youtu.be/N17qi5EW9lM

[Jim Waldron]

I think perhaps the answer to this question is that the strict categories of "pitch" vs "punch" as definded by Homer Kelly in 1967 are sorely lacking. Trying to understand a thoroughbred golf swing like Hogan's especially by close visual analysis of photos is a futile exercise, in my opinion. You really need more knowledge than is available from 2D photos. The pivot of Core and Torso can cause a visible "gap" to form, creating the illusion of a change from pitch to punch, when the orientation of the right upper arm - and by extension, the elbow and forearm - has not really changed.

I think all Hogan meant was that he felt a sense of power during Release - and who doesn't? - and in his case, he felt that power/speed in the release of his right wrist c0ck. Just as easily could have felt it in his left wrist c0ck - IF that is where his mind was focused.

[tylerdurden]

I was so confused at the time of this thread. I can barely read this.

[tembolo1284]

haha, it is a real gem of a thread though.

[tylerdurden]

lol[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360113223' post='6369905']
haha, it is a real gem of a thread though.
[/quote]

lol I suppose. I'm actually amazed how patient people were with me with a lot of my early posts. I'm quite a mess now. But I was a train wreck back then.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1360085415' post='6367425']
I think perhaps the answer to this question is that the strict categories of "pitch" vs "punch" as definded by Homer Kelly in 1967 are sorely lacking. Trying to understand a thoroughbred golf swing like Hogan's especially by close visual analysis of photos is a futile exercise, in my opinion. You really need more knowledge than is available from 2D photos. The pivot of Core and Torso can cause a visible "gap" to form, creating the illusion of a change from pitch to punch, when the orientation of the right upper arm - and by extension, the elbow and forearm - has not really changed.

I think all Hogan meant was that he felt a sense of power during Release - and who doesn't? - and in his case, he felt that power/speed in the release of his right wrist c0ck. Just as easily could have felt it in his left wrist c0ck - IF that is where his mind was focused.
[/quote]

Thanks Jim. I've been meaning to mention that your posts have been extremely helpful and insightful. I'll try to make it out to see you if/when I make it out to the left coast .

[tembolo1284]

Why do you say you are still a mess tyler?