Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355770490' post='6081523']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355769423' post='6081411']
Perhaps this could shed a light on this topic:

[/quote]

Thanks for that... a good laugh. Worlds worse seems like a nice guy, but playing from the tips???? Talk about the wrong tees. Only problem I noted was because the rules official called him on his drop error, he questioned what kind of man the official was. I hope it was just for video????

Can't imagine building courses for the worlds worse golfers.
[/quote]

I have labeled myself as "Mister everybody walking down the street" on many occasions in this forum. Sometimes, to be able to understand a situation, I'll take myself out of context and, compare to better understand the meaning of certain words, [i]i,e,[/i]: Why do they say "You SHOULDN'T stand too close to the edge of the platform in the subway" [i]vs[/i] "you MUST not....."!

"SHOULD" implies a risk. Common sense has a big role to play in my decision but, there is No Law.
"MUST" implies a penalty. A citation or worse, there is a Law.

IMHO, the golfer (in this situation) questioned the official's ruling in all honesty/innocense. He is the perfect exemple of the "I'm playing for fun" "carefree" type of golfer. SHOULD he learn the RoG? Absolutely! MUST he? Not in his mind! And, not in the mind of 90% of the Golfing Community unless, of course, they are part of our GolfWRX family.

Are today's courses unfair?
Not IMO. If it's "unfair" to MY game level, I'll be faced with a decision. Do I want to practice a little more and, go back later to teach IT a lesson? Or, do I just want to keep playing for fun at an easier course for ME? Even if I get my head handed back to me on a stick, I still have bragging rights to have "At Least Given IT a TRY"

I'll complain a lot more about course conditions and pace of play than I would about layout. But, that's just ME. Mister everybo.....street.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355774475' post='6081871']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355770490' post='6081523']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355769423' post='6081411']
Perhaps this could shed a light on this topic:

[/quote]

Thanks for that... a good laugh. Worlds worse seems like a nice guy, but playing from the tips???? Talk about the wrong tees. Only problem I noted was because the rules official called him on his drop error, he questioned what kind of man the official was. I hope it was just for video????

Can't imagine building courses for the worlds worse golfers.
[/quote]

I have labeled myself as "Mister everybody walking down the street" on many occasions in this forum. Sometimes, to be able to understand a situation, I'll take myself out of context and, compare to better understand the meaning of certain words, [i]i,e,[/i]: Why do they say "You SHOULDN'T stand too close to the edge of the platform in the subway" [i]vs[/i] "you MUST not....."!

"SHOULD" implies a risk. Common sense has a big role to play in my decision but, there is No Law.
"MUST" implies a penalty. A citation or worse, there is a Law.

IMHO, the golfer (in this situation) questioned the official's ruling in all honesty/innocense. He is the perfect exemple of the "I'm playing for fun" "carefree" type of golfer. SHOULD he learn the RoG? Absolutely! MUST he? Not in his mind! And, not in the mind of 90% of the Golfing Community unless, of course, they are part of our GolfWRX family.

Are today's courses unfair?
Not IMO. If it's "unfair" to MY game level, I'll be faced with a decision. Do I want to practice a little more and, go back later to teach IT a lesson? Or, do I just want to keep playing for fun at an easier course for ME? Even if I get my head handed back to me on a stick, I still have bragging rights to have "At Least Given IT a TRY"

I'll complain a lot more about course conditions and pace of play than I would about layout. But, that's just ME. Mister everybo.....street.
[/quote]

Yes sir, you do have bragging rights. You sound somewhat like a friend of mine. He considers himself average Joe 20 handi golfer. Never complains about difficulty, nor does he use the word unfair anywhere in life. In other words, he's not a victim, but makes choices in life and takes responsibility for them. What he says when walking off 18, if he said lets play the blue or black tees, he bit off more then he can chew, and choked.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

I can see why you would choose to ignore kellygreen...he clowns you every time you choose not to.

Surprised you would take that tact though. Some might label you a quitter.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355776089' post='6081991']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

I can see why you would choose to ignore kellygreen...he clowns you every time you choose not to.

Surprised you would take that tact though. Some might label you a quitter.
[/quote]

Internet yahoo's talk without fear of consequence. Face to face they say nothing, some wet themselves.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355776908' post='6082057']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355776089' post='6081991']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

I can see why you would choose to ignore kellygreen...he clowns you every time you choose not to.

Surprised you would take that tact though. Some might label you a quitter.
[/quote]

Internet yahoo's talk without fear of consequence. Face to face they say nothing, some wet themselves.
[/quote]

Touché.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. Find someone else to argue with.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355780042' post='6082275']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. Find someone else to argue with.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should go back and read your posts.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355780042' post='6082275']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. [color=#0000FF][b]Find someone else to argue with.[/b][/color]
[/quote]


Just an observation but, didn't you say the same thing to Thrillhouse awhile back? Post #60 maybe?


[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/759241-more-blatherings-from-isaacbm-about-handicap/page__view__findpost__p__6050787__hl__%2Bthrillhouse"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/759241-more-blatherings-from-isaacbm-about-handicap/page__view__findpost__p__6050787__hl__%2Bthrillhouse[/url]

[Desert Golf]

It appears that some here don't play well with others.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355785580' post='6082697']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355780042' post='6082275']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. [color=#0000FF][b]Find someone else to argue with.[/b][/color]
[/quote]


Just an observation but, didn't you say the same thing to Thrillhouse awhile back? Post #60 maybe?


[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/759241-more-blatherings-from-isaacbm-about-handicap/page__view__findpost__p__6050787__hl__%2Bthrillhouse"]http://www.golfwrx.c...l__+thrillhouse[/url]
[/quote]

Yep, and I quit posting to him, for the same reason. You missed the private piece where we agreed.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355788750' post='6082931']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355785580' post='6082697']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355780042' post='6082275']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. [color=#0000FF][b]Find someone else to argue with.[/b][/color]
[/quote]


Just an observation but, didn't you say the same thing to Thrillhouse awhile back? Post #60 maybe?


[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/759241-more-blatherings-from-isaacbm-about-handicap/page__view__findpost__p__6050787__hl__%2Bthrillhouse"]http://www.golfwrx.c...l__+thrillhouse[/url]
[/quote]

Yep, and I quit posting to him, for the same reason. You missed the private piece where we agreed.
[/quote]

Later in that same thread, it would seem that he doesn't agree with your agreement, just saying...... No, I didn't miss anything.

[golfin2]

This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:
[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?
[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.
[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list]
[list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]

It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:
[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list]
[list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.

[mdgboxx]

If you ever, Ever, EVER dare to send me a PM, know that I [u]WILL[/u] put it back on the board. [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?app=members&module=messaging&section=view&do=findMessage&topicID=2776845&msgID=__firstUnread"]http://www.golfwrx.c...D=__firstUnread[/url]__

It bothers you enough to send me a PM. So, it DOES make a difference to you.

I don't know or care who you [u]THINK[/u] you are but, you are no Dr. Phil McGraw and, should you be Him (Dr. Phil), you're no "kellygreen".

John Kerry makes no bones about having married UP, you seem to have a problem with it. (You need more help than I do)

Something happened on this board over the summer. I don't come on a lot during the Golf season but, when I came back on, on a regular basis, in mid Nov., I couldn't help but notice that the marshals (as a whole), don't come online as much. I've seen MrPar1noid once and only two others more often but, much less than I was used to.

Now, if we can get back on topic, I'm all for it but, if you still think that "I'll wet myself face to face" I [u]will[/u] PM you my personal address. THAT should be no problem for you since you can travel and, make it a point to bragg about it.

'Nuff said!

I will NOT agree to not post with you again. You look for me, you WILL find me!

Mister everybody (nobody to you, SHEEECHHH) walking down the street

EDIT: I printed my reply to your PM (this one)....Just in case!

[Sean2]

[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]
It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

Thank you for your thoughts Golfin2! Some very good, well thought out ideas. :-)

Forced carries, multiple hazards, and the like, make a course much more difficult for the average golfer, especially when you factor in the added length. There is nothing wrong with making a course a challenge...according to one's ability.

Many of these courses only have three tee boxes. I have contacted a few of them in my area and asked them if they have considered adding more tee boxes (in the spirit of the [i]Tee It Forward[/i] initiative), and have been told, "We are considering it" (I get the impression though that they mean...no). I've even asked our state golf association, which holds "member days" tournaments, to offer senior tees at these events since right now everyone plays the same tees. So a 60 year old golfer competes against a 22 year old golfer from the same tee box (they are considering adding a set of senior tees in these tournaments).

[MtlJeff]

almost 500 replies and 7000 views. Whether you agree or disagree gotta commend you on a discussion worthy article Sean.

from one amateur writer to another, looking forward to the next one!

[Sean2]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1355801514' post='6083945']
almost 500 replies and 7000 views. Whether you agree or disagree gotta commend you on a discussion worthy article Sean.

from one amateur writer to another, looking forward to the next one!
[/quote]

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate it!

ps: don't have your terrific sense of humor though. :-)

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:
[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?
[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.
[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]
It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:
[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

At my old course, I fell in love with a 585 yds par 5 and a 460 yds par 4, both from the tips. The par 4 has a tree branch in play off the tee, you must have a draw to carry water and avoid a ditch on the right. The par 5 is straight as an arrow but, it has six bunkers (three each side opposed to each other) strategically located with no more than 30 yds apart. I could not expect to hit any of both these greens in less than regulation. The 460 yds par 4 was third shot, chip to the green for 1 putt par unless, I chipped in for birdie. The 585 yrds par 5 was a 7i or less third shot to the green but, I knew that I could par them both and, I have done it.

IMO, you don't understand all the issues related to this topic. If I see that a specific course is out of my league (skill level) I'll just move on to something else more suited for me.

I've just finished my 8th year at golf. You have no idea how many times I've heard "80% of your game is from around the greens" to which I reply: Yeah, miss your drive and then talk to me about your short game. IMO, every shot is as important as the next. Not more or less except on the green. THAT'S where the money is. To this day, I'm still convinced that you don't even need a short game if your half as good as you say you are (not you golfin2, the ones pushing short game) you should be on the GIR. The Green In Regulation allows for two putts. What if you make one instead?

My limit is 6800 yds at ± 140 slope. More than that, will I want to play it again or, admit that it's too much for me?

[golfin2]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355804905' post='6084187']
[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]
It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

At my old course, I fell in love with a 585 yds par 5 and a 460 yds par 4, both from the tips. The par 4 has a tree branch in play off the tee, you must have a draw to carry water and avoid a ditch on the right. The par 5 is straight as an arrow but, it has six bunkers (three each side opposed to each other) strategically located with no more than 30 yds apart. I could not expect to hit any of both these greens in less than regulation. The 460 yds par 4 was third shot, chip to the green for 1 putt par unless, I chipped in for birdie. The 585 yrds par 5 was a 7i or less third shot to the green but, I knew that I could par them both and, I have done it.

IMO, you don't understand all the issues related to this topic. If I see that a specific course is out of my league (skill level) I'll just move on to something else more suited for me.

[/quote]

I'm not sure which issues I brought up make you think I do not understand the topic? I agree with everything you wrote. I agree making par on a very difficult/long hole is satisfying.

I also agree on the comments everyone makes on the short game stuff. You should read the topic posted by the stats guy recently showing how for amateurs improving driving is one of the main keys to lower scores which agrees with what you are saying.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355805776' post='6084225']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355804905' post='6084187']
[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]
It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

At my old course, I fell in love with a 585 yds par 5 and a 460 yds par 4, both from the tips. The par 4 has a tree branch in play off the tee, you must have a draw to carry water and avoid a ditch on the right. The par 5 is straight as an arrow but, it has six bunkers (three each side opposed to each other) strategically located with no more than 30 yds apart. I could not expect to hit any of both these greens in less than regulation. The 460 yds par 4 was third shot, chip to the green for 1 putt par unless, I chipped in for birdie. The 585 yrds par 5 was a 7i or less third shot to the green but, I knew that I could par them both and, I have done it.

IMO, you don't understand all the issues related to this topic. If I see that a specific course is out of my league (skill level) I'll just move on to something else more suited for me.

[/quote]

I'm not sure which issues I brought up make you think I do not understand the topic? I agree with everything you wrote. I agree making par on a very difficult/long hole is satisfying.

I also agree on the comments everyone makes on the short game stuff. You should read the topic posted by the stats guy recently showing how for amateurs improving driving is one of the main keys to lower scores which agrees with what you are saying.
[/quote]


I was addressing those parts about the average golfer being embarassed or feeling guilty about playing forward tees. On some courses, I may not find the perfect distance for ME but, if most of the teeboxes, on the scorecard, indicate that the tips or even the whites are too much for me, then, I wouldn't have a problem playing from the senior tees. Of course, that would be on my next visit. Not ALL my pride stays in the trunk of the car when I put my shoes on. My point is, if I feel that a course deserves to be played again, I may play it from the same teebox or more forward without feeling guilty or embarassed about it.

The fact that you mentioned guilt and embarassment didn't sit well with me. I walk, as much as possible but, I don't carry. If someone prefers to ride, there's nothing to be ashamed of. IMHO, it's exactly the same if I prefer to play it forward. You have to take into consideration that not ALL of GolfWRX gorillas will find the perfect distances for each and every one of them either. Some will carry and, some will lay up. The main thing is not to "lie down" because [u]I think[/u] it's unfair to ME and, (now looking for allies) it absolutely HAS to be unfair to everybody else. Just so I can sleep at night, I don't think that any course has any changes to bring to the table. It's a play it as you find it kind of deal. If I don't like a specific course, b/c I think it's unfair to ME then, I won't go back. From what I read from the posters saying that today's courses are unfair, I ask: What are you planning to do about it? Gather a monstrous mob and block all entrances to those courses?

I read from Golf History Archives that some early courses had no more than 6/7 holes, if that. Now, we are limited to 18 and, some find an excuse to complain about it. THAT'S the part I don't grasp. But, I never pretented to be a wizard to begin with.

The thread's question is: Are today's Golf courses unfair to the average Golfer?

My answer is: NO

If I am too proud to play par 3s and executive courses or, even spend ½ day at the driving range, who am I to challenge the layout of a course where I voluntarily buy a tee time from?

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355759726' post='6080651']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355747184' post='6080083']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355705428' post='6078411']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355702504' post='6078175']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355700431' post='6078045']
[quote name='Bulle Rock Golf' timestamp='1355682154' post='6076905']
That's why they are Pros =] and I know you have heard countless times "Par on that hole is like gaining a stroke on the field"

The amateur golfer can still score on a 220 yard par 3 - just exponentially more infrequently; chances are if every par 3 is set up 200+ yards its the Superintendent/Maintenance not the designer (although in some cases it is)
[/quote]

Ha ha! Yes, that is why they are pros. :-)
It could be the superintendent or maintenance, but someone had to put that tee box there originally.
[/quote]

I haven't seen these courses that lack tees for average people. Where are these courses you guys keep talking about? If there is a 200+ tee box there is also one at 175 or 150 on even the most difficult courses I've seen. My home course has two par 3s that can play as long as 235 if you go to the back of the back boxes but on each of those holes there are also boxes that play 130. Members typically are playing these holes from 150 to 175 yards.
[/quote]

It was a course I played on the Cape a couple of years ago. I don't remember the name. The course I played yesterday the shortest par three was 173 and the longest 185 (from the middle tees). The older courses I play usually see a couple of par threes in the mid-130s to 140s and maybe one long one in the 160s 170s.
[/quote]

But what is the front yardage on those holes????? How many potential tee boxes on these holes??? How big are the greens???? You guys keep trying to keep the myth alive that courses are too difficult and lack options for average players. I'm not buying it. We had one guy post a picture of an easy par 3 claiming it was unfair now your claim of a course with par 3s from 173 to 185. Please name the course so we can research it.
[/quote]
I didn't take exact measurements. Three tee boxes. I claim? Why would I lie? Here is link to the scorecard: [url="http://www.poquoybrook.com/course-information/course-tour"]http://www.poquoybro...ion/course-tour[/url]

16 and 17 are 426 and 428 yards from the white tees. Very, very long par 4's for the average golfer. I'm sure they aren't hitting mid-irons to these greens.
[/quote]

So why not play the Red tees???? Does it hurt your manhood???? There in lies the problem. You play where you play from by choice.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote][color=#282828]The thread's question is: Are today's Golf courses unfair to the average Golfer?[/color]

[color=#282828]My answer is: NO[/color]

[u][b][color=#282828]If I am too proud to play par 3s and executive courses or, even spend ½ day at the driving range, who am I to challenge the layout of a course where I voluntarily buy a tee time from?[/color][/b][/u][/quote]

Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Imp]

There are those that love nothing more than bantering on the internet with back and forth finger pointing about a subject, and then there are those that DO something about it.

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355801242' post='6083905']
I have contacted a few of them in my area and asked them if they have considered adding more tee boxes
[/quote]

Like this ^^^

--kC

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355781077' post='6082363']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355780042' post='6082275']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. Find someone else to argue with.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should go back and read your posts.
[/quote]

The arrogance isn't all that breathtaking. I confront that level of arrogance in surgeons--and worse---on a daily basis.

What is rather startling is the lack of self-awareness around it.

[Sean2]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355814585' post='6084597']
[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355805776' post='6084225']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355804905' post='6084187']
[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]
It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

At my old course, I fell in love with a 585 yds par 5 and a 460 yds par 4, both from the tips. The par 4 has a tree branch in play off the tee, you must have a draw to carry water and avoid a ditch on the right. The par 5 is straight as an arrow but, it has six bunkers (three each side opposed to each other) strategically located with no more than 30 yds apart. I could not expect to hit any of both these greens in less than regulation. The 460 yds par 4 was third shot, chip to the green for 1 putt par unless, I chipped in for birdie. The 585 yrds par 5 was a 7i or less third shot to the green but, I knew that I could par them both and, I have done it.

IMO, you don't understand all the issues related to this topic. If I see that a specific course is out of my league (skill level) I'll just move on to something else more suited for me.

[/quote]

I'm not sure which issues I brought up make you think I do not understand the topic? I agree with everything you wrote. I agree making par on a very difficult/long hole is satisfying.

I also agree on the comments everyone makes on the short game stuff. You should read the topic posted by the stats guy recently showing how for amateurs improving driving is one of the main keys to lower scores which agrees with what you are saying.
[/quote]


I was addressing those parts about the average golfer being embarassed or feeling guilty about playing forward tees. On some courses, I may not find the perfect distance for ME but, if most of the teeboxes, on the scorecard, indicate that the tips or even the whites are too much for me, then, I wouldn't have a problem playing from the senior tees. Of course, that would be on my next visit. Not ALL my pride stays in the trunk of the car when I put my shoes on. My point is, if I feel that a course deserves to be played again, I may play it from the same teebox or more forward without feeling guilty or embarassed about it.

The fact that you mentioned guilt and embarassment didn't sit well with me. I walk, as much as possible but, I don't carry. If someone prefers to ride, there's nothing to be ashamed of. IMHO, it's exactly the same if I prefer to play it forward. You have to take into consideration that not ALL of GolfWRX gorillas will find the perfect distances for each and every one of them either. Some will carry and, some will lay up. The main thing is not to "lie down" because [u]I think[/u] it's unfair to ME and, (now looking for allies) it absolutely HAS to be unfair to everybody else. Just so I can sleep at night, I don't think that any course has any changes to bring to the table. It's a play it as you find it kind of deal. If I don't like a specific course, b/c I think it's unfair to ME then, I won't go back. From what I read from the posters saying that today's courses are unfair, I ask: What are you planning to do about it? Gather a monstrous mob and block all entrances to those courses?

I read from Golf History Archives that some early courses had no more than 6/7 holes, if that. Now, we are limited to 18 and, some find an excuse to complain about it. THAT'S the part I don't grasp. But, I never pretented to be a wizard to begin with.

The thread's question is: Are today's Golf courses unfair to the average Golfer?

My answer is: NO

If I am too proud to play par 3s and executive courses or, even spend ½ day at the driving range, who am I to challenge the layout of a course where I voluntarily buy a tee time from?
[/quote]

That's the point. Some people aren't buying tee times from them. They lose revenue, people get laid off, courses close, etc. I don't know about you, but I find that depressing.

[Sean2]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1355836091' post='6085025']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355781077' post='6082363']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355780042' post='6082275']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355778094' post='6082131']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355769526' post='6081419']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355768549' post='6081327']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355767685' post='6081261']
@kellygreen - You just solidified you're not capable of sticking to your word...big tell. I have 8 years of psychology ed and thirty year of related practice. They are measured behaviors that can be changed. Back to ignoring your posts.
[/quote]

Pepper, I thought you worked in business? By the way, Kelly makes some compelling and valid points. No need to ignore him simply because you disagree. That in itself is a "big tell".

This I find especially true:

[i]Labels are things that the[i][b] person assigning them has decided are PERSONALITY TRAITS[/b][/i]....and is therefore (covertly) making a value judgement about that person's character.

So saying that someone is a "whiner", that they are "lazy" or that they are a "quitter" is (in reality) a character attack upon that person, and an effort to hold them up as something worthy of contempt or derision. [/i]

With regards to our average golfer who doesn't have time to practice, or would rather play 18 holes than practice simply because it's either one or the other, making those kinds of value judgments is not only high-handed, but a bit short-sighted.
[/quote]

Thanks for your opinion in the matter regarding someone else, but you're overstepping your bounds, plus influence. I have no issues with differing views either; it's how people present them. I get annoyed by immature internet people that not only argue by repeating themselves, but argue as if they are an authority, yet have no subject experience.

What's found on the internet is NOT all ways fact; Wikipedia is a perfect example. Topics were I use the word whining (verb) is meant generically, making it a personality behavior when it's repeatedly done, an action if done once.. Personalizing it distorts. I am CEO of a company I founded that, in part, handles functions for corporate America that include psychological testing, and I practiced many years back.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm overstepping my bounds. Thank you master. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed to have some kind of "influence" or exhibited an "I know better than you" attitude". I simply posted an opinion that people are free to agree or disagree with.

By the way, how do you know what experience people have or do not have Pepper? Believe it or not, I'm not the ignorant snipe you suggest in this post. I've left out my experience and education on purpose because I find bragging, passive or otherwise, tasteless.

You make me smile Pepper, though at times I find your arrogance breathtaking.
[/quote]

I am glad you're smiling, all while personalizing this further. Find someone else to argue with.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should go back and read your posts.
[/quote]

The arrogance isn't all that breathtaking. I confront that level of arrogance in surgeons--and worse---on a daily basis.

[b]What is rather startling is the lack of self-awareness around it.[/b]
[/quote]

That's even worse.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1355833408' post='6084897']
There are those that love nothing more than bantering on the internet with back and forth finger pointing about a subject, and then there are those that DO something about it.

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355801242' post='6083905']
I have contacted a few of them in my area and asked them if they have considered adding more tee boxes
[/quote]

Like this ^^^

--kC
[/quote]

Thanks. :-)

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355840678' post='6085259']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355814585' post='6084597']
[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355805776' post='6084225']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1355804905' post='6084187']
[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]
It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list][list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

At my old course, I fell in love with a 585 yds par 5 and a 460 yds par 4, both from the tips. The par 4 has a tree branch in play off the tee, you must have a draw to carry water and avoid a ditch on the right. The par 5 is straight as an arrow but, it has six bunkers (three each side opposed to each other) strategically located with no more than 30 yds apart. I could not expect to hit any of both these greens in less than regulation. The 460 yds par 4 was third shot, chip to the green for 1 putt par unless, I chipped in for birdie. The 585 yrds par 5 was a 7i or less third shot to the green but, I knew that I could par them both and, I have done it.

IMO, you don't understand all the issues related to this topic. If I see that a specific course is out of my league (skill level) I'll just move on to something else more suited for me.

[/quote]

I'm not sure which issues I brought up make you think I do not understand the topic? I agree with everything you wrote. I agree making par on a very difficult/long hole is satisfying.

I also agree on the comments everyone makes on the short game stuff. You should read the topic posted by the stats guy recently showing how for amateurs improving driving is one of the main keys to lower scores which agrees with what you are saying.
[/quote]


I was addressing those parts about the average golfer being embarassed or feeling guilty about playing forward tees. On some courses, I may not find the perfect distance for ME but, if most of the teeboxes, on the scorecard, indicate that the tips or even the whites are too much for me, then, I wouldn't have a problem playing from the senior tees. Of course, that would be on my next visit. Not ALL my pride stays in the trunk of the car when I put my shoes on. My point is, if I feel that a course deserves to be played again, I may play it from the same teebox or more forward without feeling guilty or embarassed about it.

The fact that you mentioned guilt and embarassment didn't sit well with me. I walk, as much as possible but, I don't carry. If someone prefers to ride, there's nothing to be ashamed of. IMHO, it's exactly the same if I prefer to play it forward. You have to take into consideration that not ALL of GolfWRX gorillas will find the perfect distances for each and every one of them either. Some will carry and, some will lay up. The main thing is not to "lie down" because [u]I think[/u] it's unfair to ME and, (now looking for allies) it absolutely HAS to be unfair to everybody else. Just so I can sleep at night, I don't think that any course has any changes to bring to the table. It's a play it as you find it kind of deal. If I don't like a specific course, b/c I think it's unfair to ME then, I won't go back. From what I read from the posters saying that today's courses are unfair, I ask: What are you planning to do about it? Gather a monstrous mob and block all entrances to those courses?

I read from Golf History Archives that some early courses had no more than 6/7 holes, if that. Now, we are limited to 18 and, some find an excuse to complain about it. THAT'S the part I don't grasp. But, I never pretented to be a wizard to begin with.

The thread's question is: Are today's Golf courses unfair to the average Golfer?

My answer is: NO

If I am too proud to play par 3s and executive courses or, even spend ½ day at the driving range, who am I to challenge the layout of a course where I voluntarily buy a tee time from?
[/quote]

That's the point. Some people aren't buying tee times from them. They lose revenue, people get laid off, courses close, etc. I don't know about you, but I find that depressing.
[/quote]

See what you did? You sealed the vicious circle of offer and demand.

That said, the question is: Are today's Golf Courses unfair to the Average Golfer?

Do they make children's size tennis courts/racquets? I have yet to see a backyard/schoolyard children's size basketball hoop/ball. Is that fair to the 10-12 yr/old? We both know what THEY would answer. But, they can and, they do, make Golf clubs for children. Furthermore, they adapt golf courses for school children. They move the teeboxes waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy up there for them. They also teach all of them the rudiments of Golf Etiquette. IMHO, that last part seems to be an endangered facet of Golf. If I play hockey on week-ends, do I play on a rink adapted for my 68 years of age? I consider myself an average Golfer at 12 hdc.

At 16, I was riding a Norton 650. At 18, I joined the Air Force, they made a Fire Fighter out of me. I had to learn to drive a truck with three colleagues/friends/family standing on the Tailgate.(Security bars were not invented yet in 1962) I spent my last year at RCAF Goose Bay (your US Goose Air Base on the DEW Line) which was covered with ice 7 months of the year. Does that make me a better than average driver? You bet!

Should I get behind the wheel of an off-road equiped 4X4, would I think that those trails ar unfair to me? Of course. I've met girls that could keep up with the best of them. Could she lose me, in the wild, in a heart beat? Absolutely!

I also think that mountain bike trails are unfair to me. Bicycle paths are more to my level. I started playing Golf at 60 years old, can you imagine how much driving range time and lessons, I had to put in for the first couple of years to be able to simply enjoy playing Golf?

In my later comments about those situations being unfair to me are actually a bad choice of words. They are simply not at my level IMO

[Pepperturbo]

As I said in the pm, it makes no difference what you or others think of me... I am not looking for new unbalanced best friends. There, you feel better? My only purpose in the PM was these ridiculous personalized posts detract from the thread topic.

[hoganfan924]

How about this analogy:

If suddenly every ski resort in the country only had double black diamond runs, very few people would take up skiing and most intermediate level skiers and older folks would stop skiing.

I think that this is somewhat analogous to what happened with golf course design starting in the 1980's that has created an imbalance in the types and quantities of courses available. This has, IMO contributed to the contraction in the number of golfers while the number of courses has exploded since then.

For example, one of the "muni's" built in my area is a very fine golf course and one of my favorites to play (Fieldstone), designed by Arthur Hills. However, the course rating from the tips is 74.6/147 (which I sometimes play) and from the middle tees (where friends and I normally play) is 71.7/141. No problem, as I said it's one of my favorites. It used to even host the Monday qualifier for the Buick open and annually hosts Mi Am qualifiers. Larrybud and I won the 2 man scramble there this year so we both really like the course and play it several times/year. But it's almost impossible to walk the course (long green to tee distances) and I've never seen anyone do it (not sure if it's even allowed). Weekend greens fees range from $42-$55. It has 8 forced carries off the tee (even the forward men's tees), and several forced carries to greens. Marshland and hazards galore. Hence the 147 slope. If you don't have a single digit index, and aren't hitting it really well, you're probably not going to have a very good time. Since opening, the course has operated at a net loss.

However, formerly there was a privately owned 27 hole course on that site called Arrowhead that was bought by the city and plowed under to build Fieldstone. I can't find an old scorecard for it, but it was a more typical old school course. Probably a 118-124 slope would be my guess from the back tees. Inexpensive to play. Probably $25 or less for 18. I used to stop in often on Saturday mornings and play a quick 9 on my way to visit my parents about 20 years ago. The kind of course that really appealed to average players, hosted many golf leagues and was easy to walk. Not a really short course either (they had a 232 yard par 3 on my favorite 9 for example). But very few forced carries, not many hazards. very typical midwestern parkland style course built in the 50's or 60's.

This trend of plowing under older courses and building "championship" courses has happened all over the country. It has made golf less accessible for juniors, beginners, old people, high handicappers, women and those of more limited financial means.

There is unquestionably a place for both types of courses. The problem as I see it, is that there is now an imbalance, which has contributed to the contraction in the number of players and threatens the long term financial viability of these championship courses, which are much more expensive to build and operate.

Similar to as if every ski resort build since 1980 only had black and double black diamond runs.