More blatherings from Isaacbm about handicap...

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1355187331' post='6048601']
90% of golfers are bad at golf.

But the good golfers who shake their heads at the "hackersl ho have "no clue" how good you have to be to be a pro golfer shouldnt forget that lots of good athletes, even pro athletes-MLB, NFL and NBA-are included in that 90% and marvel at golfers who can strike a bunch of nice shots.

Its all context from personal experience.

Its like if a good golfer stood in the batters box and tried to hit a curve ball from a good college pitcher that falls off the table (any good baseball player can hit that pitch)

Or tried to tackle a decent 240lb half way decent college fullback (a decent DB at 180lbs can make that tackle)

The golfer would have an appreciation of this (as they stood there thinking the ball would hit them in the head and the drops to the outside corrner) and have no frame of real reference to determine if this athlete was elite or just really good.
[/quote]

I think it's because every round, a 3-4 handicap can hit shots (and sometimes several shots) that are a lot like the pros would hit. A 270yd drive or a 9 iron that spins to 7 feet. So these guys think "if i just practiced more and started younger i could've been on tour". Whereas with sports like the NFL or NBA there seems to be some thinking that these guys are born so athletically gifted that they seem foreign to us. Some schmuck at home can't fathom being like Lebron James because Lebron is 6'8" 250lbs and runs like a point guard. Same with NFL linebackers or even Quarterbacks. Size is an obvious necessity for a lot of the players except in golf anyone thinks they could have made it

Of course 99% of the time this isn't true. Some guys make it on pure athletic ability, but most of the time even the guys you think are athletically gifted are ridiculously better then the average fan thinks. Most guys would be shocked to see an NBA warmup and realize that the big awkward guy who shoots 43% from the floor is hitting 27 shots in a row. Or the 6-6 swingman who can only hit the corner 3, averaged 26 points per game at the top high school in his state.

I agree with you, all pro athletes are much much better then an average guy thinks

But as i've also argued a bit in this thread, the top 100 guys not in the pro sport you love are usually pretty interchangeable with the bottom 100 in the pro league. So you have to be ridiculously good and sometimes a bit lucky too

[isaacbm]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1355171823' post='6047439']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355164831' post='6046897']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355152507' post='6045939']
Isaac- I guess you're right, the average hacker can't differentiate tour talent from really really good amateur talent. But can the average Joe do so in any sport? Can he watch an NBA player play a pickup game with hacks, and watch a good D1 type player play in the same game and tell the difference? As MTLJeff points out, the difference in a NFL kicker and an NCAA kicker isn't always talent, but nerves. That'd be hard for a casual fan to spot as well.
[/quote]

Well I think you're right. It is hard to spot in any sport. The only way to really know is see what a player can do at high level tournament golf.

I do agree that any am that can continually place in the top 5 has the necessary ability to at least try to test their game at the next level. But I'm talking about players that are already proven to a certain extent.

My point continues to be that a player that simply has a low handicap at their club is not the same as a guy that can prove that ability at a tournament level.

I guess I'm just talking in circles now. As I said in the beginning of this thread, it's winter in Calgary and watching QSchool got me all nostalgic.

It just still amazes me how I can be hitting balls into a wall at an indoor dome and have a couple guys in the next stall say to me: " if you can't make it then no one can. What the hell are you doing here?"

So I get on the computer an "blather" (hence the thread title) about it to all you guys....
[/quote]

First of all, I agree with the whole "you have no idea how good these guys really are" school of thought. But I think the reason that people see a guy like you play and wonder what if or why not or whatever is because you do things about 95% the same as a tour pro and probably a very good one at that. I don't know you personally, but I have seen you post and know you used to play mini tours and such, so I am making some assumptions about what your game looks like. But you'd have to agree that what you do and what Tour Pro A does are substantially similar, setting aside that the minor differences in your games is what leaves you lightyears behind him. My guess is as a +3 handicap type, you probably hit most shots pretty good. You probably rarely make any huge mistakes. You probably routinely hit "tour caliber" shots. And that's the reason that the untrained eye looks at you and says "holy sh*t why aren't you on the tour." But as you know and as I know, although you do things 95% the same as Tour Pro A, his "other 5%" looks pretty much the same as his 95%, and your other 5% is mental edge, penalty shots, lost balls, 3 putts, etc etc etc etc etc - all of the things that add up to 3 or 4 shots a round and represent the difference between a reclaimed AM and a guy paying his bills playing golf. But again, you do things pretty darn similar to him the vast majority of the time. Maybe he has 2 or 3 holes per round where he stares down birdie and you short sided yourself for a bogey or got loose with a tee shot and put one in the trees. But the other 15 or 16 holes, you guys are twins.
[/quote]


I read your post a couple of times. I guess I have to agree with you. The visual differences are slight and I should lay off the guys that can't see between the lines.

I'm sure I would have no idea what I was looking at if I was trying to scout for basketball for example.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='left handed pull cart' timestamp='1355186913' post='6048553']
I'd enjoy hearing from Isaac and or Thrillhouse as to what you think the real difference or "it" factor is. I spent time playing with a lot of mini tour players from 1995-2007 and some made it out on the web.com and PGA tours for a year or so but couldn't hang on to cards.

What's the difference between the career mini tour guy that makes money wins mini tour events 54-72 holes in double digit under par scores and , plays with all the local PGA tour players and is every bit as good as them in theory but can't make it any higher than a regional mini tour and the guy that is seemingly the same in ability as them but puts it together at the right time and never loses his card.

I guess it would be like my sales career, everyone can do my job but some are scared to sell or afraid to go to te next level when they hit a certain income level. Does it come down to fear and self doubt at that level?
[/quote]

thrillhouse and I were talking about this today. He was comparing me to Chez Reavie. He said I basically hit it just like him except his drives are just a little more consistent, his putting is only slightly better, his irons are a little better, his wedges are a lot better, his pitching and chipping are a little sharper, but I'm likely just a little better from the sand. Also, I have more hair than him.

So there you have it, I'm almost but not quite at all, entirely unlike Chez Reavie.

If I could tell you exactly what the difference was, I wouldn't be running a construction company in the frozen north that is Alberta.

What I can tell you is what my own experience was like. If every tournament was like the Hope Classic, I could have made it on tour. I play really well on easy courses. I have no trouble going very low and I don't get nervous in tournaments when i'm 5,6,7,or 8 under par (9 under however gets me shaking...something about birdieing half the holes seems weird to me). I just had trouble playing from long rough and I was never that great from 230 yards to a tucked pin, which is what half the par 3's on tour are like now days. It's amazing what having a scoring average of 3.5 can do to you on par 3's!

Also, when the wind starts to blow on a course with a lot of water, I seemed to loose a little faith in myself. A links course with no water in a semi hurricane however was my best friend. And yet I bet my average on 17 at PGA West Stadium course over the years was probably 2.3..... Makes no sense but there you have it.

The mind can be a fickle thing at times. I found I actually played better in tournaments than in regular rounds when I was playing full time. I just seemed to get up for it more. The trouble is that I was just never quite good enough. If I had to point to one single thing, I would say it was my scores. I'm not trying to be flippant either. I just couldn't add up the scores and have them be low enough.

If I could have just kept my own score care.... Who knows how far I would have gone.


I guess why this whole subject really fascinates me still is because I can't really put my finger on it either. I can't really tell you what the difference is. And it drives me crazy at times!

Like I said earlier in this thread, the thing that impresses me the most about the guys at the top of the world is just how unimpressive they make the whole thing look. I'm not talking about a guy shooting 62, that always impresses me. I'm more talking about someone consistently shooting double digits under par week in and week out. Or someone hitting 10 greens and 6 fairways and still shooting 71 like it was nothing on a hard course.

I guess when it really comes down to it, if I new, i'd be out there doing it.

[Sean2]

^^^Yes, "how unimpressive they make the whole thing look." As a high single digit without a consistent golf swing and a million swing thoughts when I see a great golfer (and I get to see a few...one especially), I see a consistency in a golf swing that takes my breath away, ball striking that is incredible, and a mental toughness that is at the genius level. To me, those are the three ingredients to be successful at the highest levels. I don't know Isaac, perhaps you sell yourself short. Living in Alberta has to be difficult on your golf game. (Though, I've spend time in Canada's Northwest and it's absolutely beautiful).

But what do I know? As I alluded to, I'm not a real golfer in the true sense of the word. I play at golf. Maybe I should stay at a Holiday Inn Express?

[edub72]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1355204819' post='6049911']
[quote name='left handed pull cart' timestamp='1355186913' post='6048553']
I'd enjoy hearing from Isaac and or Thrillhouse as to what you think the real difference or "it" factor is. I spent time playing with a lot of mini tour players from 1995-2007 and some made it out on the web.com and PGA tours for a year or so but couldn't hang on to cards.

What's the difference between the career mini tour guy that makes money wins mini tour events 54-72 holes in double digit under par scores and , plays with all the local PGA tour players and is every bit as good as them in theory but can't make it any higher than a regional mini tour and the guy that is seemingly the same in ability as them but puts it together at the right time and never loses his card.

I guess it would be like my sales career, everyone can do my job but some are scared to sell or afraid to go to te next level when they hit a certain income level. Does it come down to fear and self doubt at that level?
[/quote]

thrillhouse and I were talking about this today. He was comparing me to Chez Reavie. He said I basically hit it just like him except his drives are just a little more consistent, his putting is only slightly better, his irons are a little better, his wedges are a lot better, his pitching and chipping are a little sharper, but I'm likely just a little better from the sand. Also, I have more hair than him.

So there you have it, I'm almost but not quite at all, entirely unlike Chez Reavie.

If I could tell you exactly what the difference was, I wouldn't be running a construction company in the frozen north that is Alberta.

What I can tell you is what my own experience was like. If every tournament was like the Hope Classic, I could have made it on tour. I play really well on easy courses. I have no trouble going very low and I don't get nervous in tournaments when i'm 5,6,7,or 8 under par (9 under however gets me shaking...something about birdieing half the holes seems weird to me). I just had trouble playing from long rough and I was never that great from 230 yards to a tucked pin, which is what half the par 3's on tour are like now days. It's amazing what having a scoring average of 3.5 can do to you on par 3's!

Also, when the wind starts to blow on a course with a lot of water, I seemed to loose a little faith in myself. A links course with no water in a semi hurricane however was my best friend. And yet I bet my average on 17 at PGA West Stadium course over the years was probably 2.3..... Makes no sense but there you have it.

The mind can be a fickle thing at times. I found I actually played better in tournaments than in regular rounds when I was playing full time. I just seemed to get up for it more. The trouble is that I was just never quite good enough. If I had to point to one single thing, I would say it was my scores. I'm not trying to be flippant either. I just couldn't add up the scores and have them be low enough.

If I could have just kept my own score care.... Who knows how far I would have gone.


I guess why this whole subject really fascinates me still is because I can't really put my finger on it either. I can't really tell you what the difference is. And it drives me crazy at times!

Like I said earlier in this thread, the thing that impresses me the most about the guys at the top of the world is just how unimpressive they make the whole thing look. I'm not talking about a guy shooting 62, that always impresses me. I'm more talking about someone consistently shooting double digits under par week in and week out. Or someone hitting 10 greens and 6 fairways and still shooting 71 like it was nothing on a hard course.

I guess when it really comes down to it, if I new, i'd be out there doing it.
[/quote]

I know, I've followed the mini tours just as much as the regular tours and can't figure it out, the difference between me and you is that I still wouldn't make it even if I knew (loft disease). I used to run 2 day tournaments here in Texas for a while and had a player come thru that won half the tournaments he played with me, I think he only won once on the AGPTS but then went on to win the web.com money list and did not keep his card in 2012. At the same time he was cutting his teeth on the AGPTS a former Texas State Open champion was winning his usual 2-3 tournaments a year and the money title and failed to make it past the 2nd round of q-school for about the 10th time. He is a very good player just never puts it together at the right time. This same player was winning tournaments the same time Bubba Watson was coming up on that tour, rarely has a tournament round that shoots him out of a tournament but just doesn't get any further and there are several of them on every tour it seems.

I think either the level of play or the number of able players over the years has increased to a point that younger players can't have the mindset of getting by and keeping their cards, in the 90's I think I remember seeing a stat that if you shot even par on the PGA tour that you could make enough cuts and money to come close, nowadays you have to have several high finishes and even par won't get you many if any cuts, and I rarely see any mini tour cuts at higher than -2. I played in a couple of mini-tour tournaments in the 90's and managed to not look like an idiot shooting my 75-78. I remember one in which I played with the eventual winner on day 1. I'm still friends with him so I remember some of the numbers, he shot 68 on day 1 and I shot 73, 5 strokes I hit more fairways and the same amount of greens he birdied half the greens he hit and got up and down 6 of 7 on the greens he missed, day 2 he shot 68 again and had basically the same #'s, me too but I ballooned to a 78 by getting up and down about half the time and 3 putting a couple of times.

[RRFireblade]

I think THEE main thing the majority of peeple are not aware of is the simple numbers.

This is rough math off the top of my head but for ballparking purposes....

PGA Tour Spots = 230
NBA = 450
MLB = 750-1000+
NFL = 17/1800
ATP =1000s+
PBA = 4000-5000

Golf is the least accessable , the most costly to pursue , the most un-supported and has the least number of the most difficult to obtain.....(whew...) available spots. Factor all that.

So why is it that those guys are so many better than the rest ?

Cause virtually every single PGA tour event is the Super Bowl , World Series or World Championship.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1355241556' post='6051145']
I think THEE main thing the majority of peeple are not aware of is the simple numbers.

This is rough math off the top of my head but for ballparking purposes....

PGA Tour Spots = 230
NBA = 450
MLB = 750-1000+
NFL = 17/1800
ATP =1000s+
PBA = 4000-5000

Golf is the least accessable , the most costly to pursue , the most un-supported and has the least number of the most difficult to obtain.....(whew...) available spots. Factor all that.

So why is it that those guys are so many better than the rest ?

Cause virtually every single PGA tour event is the Super Bowl , World Series or World Championship.
[/quote]

I agree with this somewhat, but almost every kid born with the potential to play in the NBA tries gives basketball a try, at least in the USA. The same cannot be said for golf. What percentage of kids have gave golf a serious try by age 12? My guess is pretty low, especially compared to basketball or football. Probably not a popular opinion on a golf board, but the PGA is probably an easier goal for one born with "talent" than the NBA or MLB. There's simply much more competition.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1355241556' post='6051145']
I think THEE main thing the majority of peeple are not aware of is the simple numbers.

This is rough math off the top of my head but for ballparking purposes....

PGA Tour Spots = 230
NBA = 450
MLB = 750-1000+
NFL = 17/1800
ATP =1000s+
PBA = 4000-5000

Golf is the least accessable , the most costly to pursue , the most un-supported and has the least number of the most difficult to obtain.....(whew...) available spots. Factor all that.

So why is it that those guys are so many better than the rest ?

Cause virtually every single PGA tour event is the Super Bowl , World Series or World Championship.
[/quote]

How many kids play college basketball compared to college golf?

In Edit, I found this>>

[b][color=#000000][size=3]There are roughly 900 teams in college basketball, with an average of about 12-13 players per team, not included inactive players, which means over 10,000 players per year. There are roughly 360 active NBA players. [/size][/color][/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]In Double Edit, but now I found this, interesting>>[/size][/color]

[b][color=#869299][size=3][background=rgb(248, 246, 242)]There are currently over 1,200 college golf programs in the United States with 10-15 players[/background][/size][/color][/b]

[RRFireblade]

How many schools offer golf in gym class.

[spitfisher]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1355253320' post='6052077']
[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1355241556' post='6051145']
I think THEE main thing the majority of peeple are not aware of is the simple numbers.

This is rough math off the top of my head but for ballparking purposes....

PGA Tour Spots = 230
NBA = 450
MLB = 750-1000+
NFL = 17/1800
ATP =1000s+
PBA = 4000-5000

Golf is the least accessable , the most costly to pursue , the most un-supported and has the least number of the most difficult to obtain.....(whew...) available spots. Factor all that.

So why is it that those guys are so many better than the rest ?

Cause virtually every single PGA tour event is the Super Bowl , World Series or World Championship.
[/quote]

How many kids play college basketball compared to college golf?

In Edit, I found this>>

[b][color=#000000][size=3]There are roughly 900 teams in college basketball, with an average of about 12-13 players per team, not included inactive players, which means over 10,000 players per year. There are roughly 360 active NBA players. [/size][/color][/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]In Double Edit, but now I found this, interesting>>[/size][/color]

[b][color=#869299][size=3][background=rgb(248, 246, 242)]There are currently over 1,200 college golf programs in the United States with 10-15 players[/background][/size][/color][/b]
[/quote]

[b]Actually I read rrecently that their # is actually closer to 250 players in NBA, the 360 you may refer to are a misc 120 that could be called in due to injury and are presently under contract- like a 2way contract with thier farm club, But here is the real truth that most do not understand. Take that 250 NBA number well next year between 5-10 players** will retire or be forced to retire due to injury, so if there is 10000 collge players now look at the likelyhood of making it in the NBA- assuming no players make it, that had previously failed from years before and are no longer part of the 10,000.[/b]

[b]In other words your odds of making it are like .0001% chance and even then you'll likly be on the farm team for at least a couple of years. [/b]

[b]** I am being very generous with that number[/b]

[golfortennis]

[quote name='spitfisher' timestamp='1355331370' post='6056937']
[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1355253320' post='6052077']
[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1355241556' post='6051145']
I think THEE main thing the majority of peeple are not aware of is the simple numbers.

This is rough math off the top of my head but for ballparking purposes....

PGA Tour Spots = 230
NBA = 450
MLB = 750-1000+
NFL = 17/1800
ATP =1000s+
PBA = 4000-5000

Golf is the least accessable , the most costly to pursue , the most un-supported and has the least number of the most difficult to obtain.....(whew...) available spots. Factor all that.

So why is it that those guys are so many better than the rest ?

Cause virtually every single PGA tour event is the Super Bowl , World Series or World Championship.
[/quote]

How many kids play college basketball compared to college golf?

In Edit, I found this>>

[b][color=#000000][size=3]There are roughly 900 teams in college basketball, with an average of about 12-13 players per team, not included inactive players, which means over 10,000 players per year. There are roughly 360 active NBA players. [/size][/color][/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]In Double Edit, but now I found this, interesting>>[/size][/color]

[b][color=#869299][size=3][background=rgb(248,246,242)]There are currently over 1,200 college golf programs in the United States with 10-15 players[/background][/size][/color][/b]
[/quote]

[b]Actually I read rrecently that their # is actually closer to 250 players in NBA, the 360 you may refer to are a misc 120 that could be called in due to injury and are presently under contract- like a 2way contract with thier farm club, But here is the real truth that most do not understand. Take that 250 NBA number well next year between 5-10 players** will retire or be forced to retire due to injury, so if there is 10000 collge players now look at the likelyhood of making it in the NBA- assuming no players make it, that had previously failed from years before and are no longer part of the 10,000.[/b]

[b]In other words your odds of making it are like .0001% chance and even then you'll likly be on the farm team for at least a couple of years. [/b]

[b]** I am being very generous with that number[/b]
[/quote]

There are 30 teams, each of which have 12 roster spots, so 360 is a legit number. Injuries, etc, make for a larger number who appear on a roster at any one time during a season. But you also have to account for the fact that there are a number of players who do not do to a US college that go into the pool as well. Guys in Europe in a lot of cases are playing professional club ball at 17, Brandon Jennings spent a year over there.. The pool is much bigger than just the number of college players. Much bigger.

I don't think the farm team thing is correct though, depending on your parameters. There are probably many many more guys who have spent a ten day contract on a roster than have spent 5 years in the NBA. But I think among guys who spent a full season or more in the NBA, I'd think the percentage is actually quite small that spent any time in the NBDL/CBA *before* making it to the NBA. Just based on the nature of contracts(1st round pick is guaranteed a 3 year deal, etc.), salary caps, etc. I think once NBA teams ink guys to a deal, they will ride them out as long as they can, trying to get some return on their investment. It would be an interesting piece of research to see how much of that happens. I think the NBDL/CBA gets parlayed into a European job far more than an NBA gig.

[TheBoomer]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1354797581' post='6026503']
How many guys do you know that have a stroke average that is nearly 8 strokes under your course rating?

None! I'm not even that good in the tiger woods game!

So that means theoretically I'd have to improve about 7-10 shots to get 'there'. Lordy!

You were about +6 or so at your best ya?

Ya...I stick to my day job...
[/quote]


I've never shot over 60 in TW 03' on the PS2

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='GoogleMe' timestamp='1355337125' post='6057557']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1354797581' post='6026503']
How many guys do you know that have a stroke average that is nearly 8 strokes under your course rating?

None! I'm not even that good in the tiger woods game!

So that means theoretically I'd have to improve about 7-10 shots to get 'there'. Lordy!

You were about +6 or so at your best ya?

Ya...I stick to my day job...
[/quote]


I've never shot over 60 in TW 03' on the PS2
[/quote]

Now that's skill!

[DZClark]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354983545' post='6038157']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away
[/quote]

Ok, seriously, I almost never post, just hang around and read what all you guys have to say......BUT.....this is the best response I have every read. Hands down, well played.

[FairwayGolfUSA.com]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354836911' post='6029539']
Somewhere Scott Pinckney is google searching himself and is like "oh cool, they are talking about me on golfwrx....[i]awwww [/i]Isaac why did you have to point out i was last"

[/quote]

LOL, great comment.

RYAN

[JBurns]

I think for us Canadians, financially golf can be compared to hockey as far as expense go. I think it would be very interesting to see the percentage of NHL players came from poverty, I think that number would be very low while in the NFL or NBA where these sports are more accessible you see players from all aspects of life. If you are not able to come up with the money in sports like golf or hockey you are already at a severe disadvantage.

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='Night train' timestamp='1355081662' post='6042499']
It's a strange game!

When my oldest son played in college he had a teammate who was more talented than anyone I had ever seen. I thought he had a real shot at being a star on the PGA Tour............he's been struggling on the mini tours for ten years.

The other side of the coin.........I watched my son play college tournaments in the same foursome with Zach Johnson many times. A very nice polite young man..........who I wouldn't have given a chance in hell at being a PGA Tour star and a Masters winner. Very happy for Zach but I'm still in disbelief.

You just never know who has it!
[/quote]

Zach was a late bloomer. Wasn't even the best player on his high school team.

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355235630' post='6050709']

Maybe I should stay at a Holiday Inn Express?
[/quote]

I hear Jumeirah works too.

[RJRJRJ]

My heart beats out of my chest and I sweat profusely during the final seconds of an ebay auction. I think this might possibly be a limiting factor in my tournament golf success.

[Sean2]

[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356537785' post='6118233']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355235630' post='6050709']
Maybe I should stay at a Holiday Inn Express?
[/quote]

I hear Jumeirah works too.
[/quote]

Nicer accommodations as well. :-)

[spitfisher]

[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356537490' post='6118217']
[quote name='Night train' timestamp='1355081662' post='6042499']
It's a strange game!

When my oldest son played in college he had a teammate who was more talented than anyone I had ever seen. I thought he had a real shot at being a star on the PGA Tour............he's been struggling on the mini tours for ten years.

The other side of the coin.........I watched my son play college tournaments in the same foursome with Zach Johnson many times. A very nice polite young man..........who I wouldn't have given a chance in hell at being a PGA Tour star and a Masters winner. Very happy for Zach but I'm still in disbelief.

You just never know who has it!
[/quote]

Zach was a late bloomer. Wasn't even the best player on his high school team.
[/quote]

Micheal Jordan was cut from the boys freshman team and didn't get to play much on JV either- from what I understand

[Johnny Biarritz]

I had a thought on this the other day. I think you need to be roughly 50 strokes under the effective course rating for a 4 day tournament in order to win. Probably need to be 15 under to make the cut. Where do I get that number? I played TPC Louisiana the other day. Course rating from the back tees is 76.3. Figure the course is 2-3 shots harder when prepped for competition, so effective course rating of 79, rounded. So that would make 316 the "par" for the week, based off the course rating. 50 under would be 266...winning score this past year was 269, so I don't feel wrong.

I'd say that any player who even gets a tour card is a +6 handicap. Guys who can keep them year after year probably closer to +7 and guys at the top are +8 or +9, and when they go on a tear like Rory did to close out the season, probably closer to +12 or +13 in spurts. Disagree?

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1356683059' post='6127955']
I had a thought on this the other day. I think you need to be roughly 50 strokes under the effective course rating for a 4 day tournament in order to win. Probably need to be 15 under to make the cut. Where do I get that number? I played TPC Louisiana the other day. Course rating from the back tees is 76.3. Figure the course is 2-3 shots harder when prepped for competition, so effective course rating of 79, rounded. So that would make 316 the "par" for the week, based off the course rating. 50 under would be 266...winning score this past year was 269, so I don't feel wrong.

I'd say that any player who even gets a tour card is a +6 handicap. Guys who can keep them year after year probably closer to +7 and guys at the top are +8 or +9, and when they go on a tear like Rory did to close out the season, probably closer to +12 or +13 in spurts. Disagree?
[/quote]

Sounds about right.

[tembolo1284]

Yikes...now i'm really depressed. +12? *faints*

I'm not even that good in the video games.

[MtlJeff]

yes but we're talking about [i]Rory Mcilroy [/i]at +12

I don't get diiscouraged when i find out i'm not as good at basketball as Lebron James LOL

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1356710477' post='6128947']
yes but we're talking about [i]Rory Mcilroy [/i]at +12

I don't get diiscouraged when i find out i'm not as good at basketball as Lebron James LOL
[/quote]

Yeah but lebrons put 10,000 hours in.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1356719054' post='6129767']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1356710477' post='6128947']
yes but we're talking about [i]Rory Mcilroy [/i]at +12

I don't get diiscouraged when i find out i'm not as good at basketball as Lebron James LOL
[/quote]

Yeah but lebrons put 10,000 hours in.
[/quote]

Yea, If I could as much time in as he does, I'm sure I could make it in Pro Ball.

[Johnny Biarritz]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1356710031' post='6128909']
Yikes...now i'm really depressed. +12? *faints*

I'm not even that good in the video games.
[/quote]

Well, he's not that good for the entire year, mostly because he, and the rest of the tour, play so many rounds that the index would change with every revision, most likely. I'd also say that Jason Dufner got down pretty close to +12 when he went on that tear early in the year.

But yeah, I say that in order to win an event on the PGA Tour, you need to shoot 48-50 under the effective course rating for that event. So 12 under par a round, 4 rounds (or 5 at the Hope) in a row. That really brings into prespective just how good those guys really are.

Guy at work was talking about someone he knew who was a +1 handicap and was like "how can't this guy make it on tour? that's awesome play." So I say, "yeah, +1, so that means he shoots 1 under the course rating right?" So even if this +1 handicap player plays at or below his handicap for 2 rounds, he probably shoots 77 or 78 for both rounds. That's good enough for DFL most weeks.

The funny thing about those stats that show what you would earn on tour if you shot Even Par every round are misleading as well, considering that 72 or whatever par is on a given week is likely between 3 (at Kapalua or the Hope) and 12 shots (at the US Open) under the real Par for a round.

And no, I wouldn't compare myself to Rory or any of those guys. It's just good to throw out a number like +10 or +12 in reference to a handicap index to show just how good these guys really are.

[thomcad]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1354854585' post='6030881']
Those numbers are cargo shorts backwards hat MJ good!

Why is that middle aged 12 handicaps think they have a shot at the Sr. Tour??? I've run into several over the last few years.
[/quote]
Didn't Harvey Penick tell the story of a succesful 48 yr old business man and scratch golfer that retired early, and planned to totally dedicate himself to getting his game in shape for the Sr. tour in a few years. He came to Harvey and asked for help, and Harvey told him he was having lunch with another member that had the same plans, and he should join them. The other member was Tom Kite.

[Hattori Hanzo]

And here I was all proud of myself for finally getting down to scratch...Thanks a lot, Dan!

In all seriousness, this has quickly become one of my favorite threads on this site! I think it should be required reading for the 8 handicaps asking if/how they can make it on tour.