More blatherings from Isaacbm about handicap...

[Mulligan26]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1354851306' post='6030657']
I don't know how this makes me feel now.
[/quote]

You play professionally right?

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1354850901' post='6030631']
This thread should be required reading for all of the 2 hdcp 16 year old's that post threads about wanting to play pro golf. This is REAL empirical evidence that this game is the hardest sport on earth and that it takes unbelievable ability to make a living playing it. Golf is a game that not only takes immense physical ability but immense mental ability as well. The men (and women) that we watch on TV are amazing human beings. It really makes me feel small when the game is put into this perspective, a guy who can beat almost everyone he plays with at his local course. That same guy would get his a** handed to him in the smallest mini tour event. I'm glad that my goal is to be a golf teacher and not a professional golfer.
[/quote]

2 handicap 16 year olds would be a welcome change. you can make a compelling case they can, or at least have a chance, to make it. It's the 24 year old 8 Hc's or the 45 year old 5 who has his sights set on the closed door Senior tour. They are the ones who should be forced to read this.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1354851569' post='6030673']
[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1354851306' post='6030657']
I don't know how this makes me feel now.
[/quote]

You play professionally right?
[/quote]

As best as an old man can.

[Hstead]

A guy I worked with once asked me what he should be working on because he was dead serious that he wanted to give the senior tour a run. At that time he was 38 and a poor 12 hc. I said well, I would do what the guys you will be competing against are doing, like Els and Phil, they are hitting thousands of balls a week, and playing in major championships to hone their senior tour skills lol. This guy was dead serious.

[finalist]

Those numbers are cargo shorts backwards hat MJ good!

Why is that middle aged 12 handicaps think they have a shot at the Sr. Tour??? I've run into several over the last few years.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1354853790' post='6030835']
A guy I worked with once asked me what he should be working on because he was dead serious that he wanted to give the senior tour a run. At that time he was 38 and a poor 12 hc. I said well, I would do what the guys you will be competing against are doing, like Els and Phil, they are hitting thousands of balls a week, and playing in major championships to hone their senior tour skills lol. This guy was dead serious.
[/quote]

not an uncommon attitude. Guys just have no idea. I played in a Tuesday evening beer league the HC's ranged from 30ish to a couple guys who were probably scratch. Ages were mid 20's up to mid 60's, It was 9 holes of "hurry up and hit so we can get to the beer' kind of thing. This is the course I grew up on, played there hundreds of times since about 1982, i shot either even or 1 over one night and these 2 old guys who i knew a little bit and played with a few times over the years kept asking me in their thick Hungarian accents why I didn't go pro. After I successfully stopped myself from spitting my beer out all over, I tried to explain it to them. I have no chance. Might as well ask me why I don't become a heart surgeon or President. They thought I was being humble. 'oh no, you are good, you are good!" NO, I AM NOT ANY DAMN GOOD!

The Senior tour is an even harder nut to crack. Virtually impossible, especially in the next few years as more world class guys head out on that tour.

[Sean2]

A +6 MIGHT have a chance to play professionally, BUT then he or she has to learn how to play under SEVERE pressure. People fail to realize how good these men and women really are. Those folks play golf. I play at golf.

[mandudebro]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1354854585' post='6030881']
Those numbers are cargo shorts backwards hat MJ good!

Why is that middle aged 12 handicaps think they have a shot at the Sr. Tour??? I've run into several over the last few years.
[/quote]

Because as 12 handicaps, they've noticed that they're quite a bit better than the majority of golfers they play with. But their 12 handicaps tell quite a lot about their knowledge of the game, as well as the fact that they don't play with serious players much. Btw- this all applies to me too, except the delusion part.

[offapex]

I love people who dream big. More power to them. Imagine a world full of "you can't" people.

[DJ Aus]

Handicap is an interesting one, at some point the gap narrows. At my club there is a 9-5 working guy playing of +5, very good amateur but not near a tour pro. A top 100 pro also plays at our club and I believe is off +6. If you can get to +4 I think you have the talent it then comes down to drive, ability to take it on the road, financial backing, and a little bit of luck. I don't think it would be that tour pro's are off +10 just because it gets hard to shoot 60-62 every day. What seperates them and this I have seen is the difference between the guy with a +4 who only plays his home track and the guy off +4 who is playing tourneys all over the place.

[isaacbm]

this is
[quote name='DJ Aus' timestamp='1354865905' post='6031445']
Handicap is an interesting one, at some point the gap narrows. At my club there is a 9-5 working guy playing of +5, very good amateur but not near a tour pro. A top 100 pro also plays at our club and I believe is off +6. If you can get to +4 I think you have the talent it then comes down to drive, ability to take it on the road, financial backing, and a little bit of luck.[b] I don't think it would be that tour pro's are off +10[/b] just because it gets hard to shoot 60-62 every day. What seperates them and this I have seen is the difference between the guy with a +4 who only plays his home track and the guy off +4 who is playing tourneys all over the place.
[/quote]

This is part of what I'm saying. A top 100 tour pro WOULD be a +10 at an average members course rated 74. They don't have to shoot 60-62 every day. They have to shoot 64 1 out of 3 rounds. I was a plus 4.3 at one point last season and I never had a round under 70 at my home course all year. My home course is rated 75.5. I did however shoot a lot of 67's , 68's and 69's at courses rated 70 or 71.

This is the point of this thread. Not a lot of guys really understand how the handicap system works and not a lot of players understand that a + 4 at a members course is light years away from breaking even on the mini tours. You have to have an actual tournament stroke average of 70 to think about playing mini tour golf. Not weekend morning average with your buddies with gimmies average...

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just saying that I was a + 5.9 at my best with only tournament scores entered and I only broke even on the mini tours 2 out of 8 years.

[isaacbm]

A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....

[DJ Aus]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354866920' post='6031477']
this is
[quote name='DJ Aus' timestamp='1354865905' post='6031445']
Handicap is an interesting one, at some point the gap narrows. At my club there is a 9-5 working guy playing of +5, very good amateur but not near a tour pro. A top 100 pro also plays at our club and I believe is off +6. If you can get to +4 I think you have the talent it then comes down to drive, ability to take it on the road, financial backing, and a little bit of luck.[b] I don't think it would be that tour pro's are off +10[/b] just because it gets hard to shoot 60-62 every day. What seperates them and this I have seen is the difference between the guy with a +4 who only plays his home track and the guy off +4 who is playing tourneys all over the place.
[/quote]

This is part of what I'm saying. A top 100 tour pro WOULD be a +10 at an average members course rated 74. They don't have to shoot 60-62 every day. They have to shoot 64 1 out of 3 rounds. I was a plus 4.3 at one point last season and I never had a round under 70 at my home course all year. My home course is rated 75.5. I did however shoot a lot of 67's , 68's and 69's at courses rated 70 or 71.

This is the point of this thread. Not a lot of guys really understand how the handicap system works and not a lot of players understand that a + 4 at a members course is light years away from breaking even on the mini tours. You have to have an actual tournament stroke average of 70 to think about playing mini tour golf. Not weekend morning average with your buddies with gimmies average...

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just saying that I was a + 5.9 at my best with only tournament scores entered and I only broke even on the mini tours 2 out of 8 years.
[/quote]

fair call, it might not seem like it but I agree fully with you just think that the actual number suffers at a point due to diminishing returns- at my club, rating is 72 and a current top 100 pro plays off +6 but then I imagine he just mucks around when playing at home and may be able to get to +10 if he wanted to. I play off 2 and know the distance between me and +5 and then tour pro's! Course rating comes into it in that tour pro's can probably shoot 65 whether it is tough or easy course, they probably wont play off +10 at a course where the rating is 69 as it is too tough to make that many putts every day.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='DJ Aus' timestamp='1354868439' post='6031529']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354866920' post='6031477']
this is
[quote name='DJ Aus' timestamp='1354865905' post='6031445']
Handicap is an interesting one, at some point the gap narrows. At my club there is a 9-5 working guy playing of +5, very good amateur but not near a tour pro. A top 100 pro also plays at our club and I believe is off +6. If you can get to +4 I think you have the talent it then comes down to drive, ability to take it on the road, financial backing, and a little bit of luck.[b] I don't think it would be that tour pro's are off +10[/b] just because it gets hard to shoot 60-62 every day. What seperates them and this I have seen is the difference between the guy with a +4 who only plays his home track and the guy off +4 who is playing tourneys all over the place.
[/quote]

This is part of what I'm saying. A top 100 tour pro WOULD be a +10 at an average members course rated 74. They don't have to shoot 60-62 every day. They have to shoot 64 1 out of 3 rounds. I was a plus 4.3 at one point last season and I never had a round under 70 at my home course all year. My home course is rated 75.5. I did however shoot a lot of 67's , 68's and 69's at courses rated 70 or 71.

This is the point of this thread. Not a lot of guys really understand how the handicap system works and not a lot of players understand that a + 4 at a members course is light years away from breaking even on the mini tours. You have to have an actual tournament stroke average of 70 to think about playing mini tour golf. Not weekend morning average with your buddies with gimmies average...

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just saying that I was a + 5.9 at my best with only tournament scores entered and I only broke even on the mini tours 2 out of 8 years.
[/quote]

fair call, it might not seem like it but I agree fully with you just think that the actual number suffers at a point due to diminishing returns- at my club, rating is 72 and a current top 100 pro plays off +6 but then I imagine he just mucks around when playing at home and may be able to get to +10 if he wanted to. I play off 2 and know the distance between me and +5 and then tour pro's! Course rating comes into it in that tour pro's can probably shoot 65 whether it is tough or easy course,[b] they probably wont play off +10 at a course where the rating is 69 as it is too tough to make that many putts every day.
[/b][/quote]

The highlighted part always comes up in this discussion. I agree completely. All of my lowest differentials are at the courses with the highest course ratings.

I play a shorter muni up here sometimes that is only 6000 yards. It's very tight though with crazy small greens with a lot of slope. For some reason, the rating is 64 and the par is 70. I shot 64, 65 there this year and those rounds didn't even come close to counting towards my handicap. To maintain a plus 4 out there, I'd have to shoot 59 or 60 every few rounds???? Not bloody likely.

But at my home course, I can go around in 76 and it's the same round? I don't think so. It's way way way easier to maintain a low handicap at a higher rated course. I've had a 65 at my course for a differential of -11. Do you think I'm ever going to be able to shoot a 53 at the muni?

[Sean25rp]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354851840' post='6030693']
[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1354850901' post='6030631']
This thread should be required reading for all of the 2 hdcp 16 year old's that post threads about wanting to play pro golf. This is REAL empirical evidence that this game is the hardest sport on earth and that it takes unbelievable ability to make a living playing it. Golf is a game that not only takes immense physical ability but immense mental ability as well. The men (and women) that we watch on TV are amazing human beings. It really makes me feel small when the game is put into this perspective, a guy who can beat almost everyone he plays with at his local course. That same guy would get his a** handed to him in the smallest mini tour event. I'm glad that my goal is to be a golf teacher and not a professional golfer.
[/quote]

2 handicap 16 year olds would be a welcome change. you can make a compelling case they can, or at least have a chance, to make it. It's the 24 year old 8 Hc's or the 45 year old 5 who has his sights set on the closed door Senior tour. They are the ones who should be forced to read this.
[/quote]

So I'm 28 and play off 8. Do I have what it takes to make it?

[mark m]

Isaac: you were right in your post earlier this year, and you are right again. The numbers prove it. And it should be sobering for those who want to make a go of it. Expectations needed to be realistic and I think it helps to understand just where your game needs to be. (It's helpful, not hurtful.)

Our best local player just (barely) made it through Q school right on the number - Donald Constable.
See here for his story: [url="http://www.mngolf.org/News/Constable_Gets_PGA_Tour_Card_Lee_Is_QSchool_Medalist"]http://www.mngolf.or...School_Medalist[/url]

Now if you look up his handicap/scoring record at ghin.com it shows him to be a +4.9

Also notice that it is obviously an incomplete scoring record. For instance, it doesn't contain scores from June or July of this year. To your point; [u]he is much better than his handicap shows[/u]! Please note that I am not calling him a sandbagger. His focus was not on winning [u]net[/u] golf tournaments. The reason I bring it up is because in your post earlier this year, some of the posts were referencing some current tour players and their handicaps as amateurs - and they were saying you didn't really need to be as good as you were saying. What I want to hammer home is that their game is/was much better than the [u]listed[/u] Handicap Index. And the main reason that they even have one is two-fold; to show they are a member of a club, and you need one to enter many elite am tournaments (including USGA championships).

The math: The way course ratings are calculated is a big part of the story here. Elite players, in general, hit the ball much further than the 250 yard "scratch player" standard that is used when a course is rated. Because length is so closely tied to the rating - the longer modern courses tend to have the highest ratings. Even though they might not play that way for the modern elite player. (For instance, on a 460 par 4, he is not hitting a 250 yard drive and a 210 second shot. It's more likely a driver and 8i or less.) They have looked at this, but making changes here would most likely open a gigantic can of worms.

[stryper]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354851840' post='6030693']
[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1354850901' post='6030631']
This thread should be required reading for all of the 2 hdcp 16 year old's that post threads about wanting to play pro golf. This is REAL empirical evidence that this game is the hardest sport on earth and that it takes unbelievable ability to make a living playing it. Golf is a game that not only takes immense physical ability but immense mental ability as well. The men (and women) that we watch on TV are amazing human beings. It really makes me feel small when the game is put into this perspective, a guy who can beat almost everyone he plays with at his local course. That same guy would get his a** handed to him in the smallest mini tour event. I'm glad that my goal is to be a golf teacher and not a professional golfer.
[/quote]

2 handicap 16 year olds would be a welcome change. you can make a compelling case they can, or at least have a chance, to make it. It's the 24 year old 8 Hc's or the 45 year old 5 who has his sights set on the closed door Senior tour. They are the ones who should be forced to read this.
[/quote]

They do...but they still dream, and yes, often they delude themselves. But more often, they harbor no such illusions, at least in the case of the 45y/o's you mention. But still in the d***-measuring contest that is competitive golf, it's always interesting to see where you stand. But even more interesting (and fun) is the process of discovering just how good you can be. And I don't think there's much harm in that.

[Big Ben]

[quote name='offapex' timestamp='1354863158' post='6031365']
I love people who dream big. More power to them. Imagine a world full of "you can't" people.
[/quote]Dreaming big is awesome if you have invested a great deal of time, reflection and preparation to realize this "dream". It's one thing to dream about being a success in life, owning your own business, raising a wonderful family, etc. However to "dream" in a finite space such as professional tournament golf is a totally different story. Lots of children dream about going to the moon but very few actually do. I'm a certified golf fanatic, love the game beyond belief. Many years I've played off a good enough cap to try and actually qualify for our Country's Open Championship BUT I'm a realist and reality suggests that there's another guy out there who ACTUALLY has the talent to make it through the process and I should NOT be in his way. I can't tell you how many times my Mini tour buds complain to me about wanna be's with lots of resources shooting 85, breaking rules, etc. these guys are trying to eek out a living and some hack with cash is forcing them to call rules infractions. If you have the pedigree and raw talent it takes to truly play elite level golf you know who you are and I doubt you would classify yourself a dreamer...BB

[RRFireblade]

After a certain point , the number doesn't really mean very much. All handicap systems have a sweetspot and are pretty inaccurate the farther from the sweetspot you get.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1354893464' post='6032647']
After a certain point , the number doesn't really mean very much. All handicap systems have a sweetspot and are pretty inaccurate the farther from the sweetspot you get.
[/quote]

What?

[RRFireblade]

Any handicap is generally centered around a specific target area.

When scores get to the fringes of that target , then the handicap becomes less effective/accurate/meaningful.

In bowling for example , max score is 300. You can't get any better than that. Typically a bowling handicap is targetted around 200/210 which is universally accepted as a very good 'top' average. You can never handicap a lesser player with that same system against a 240 average bowler.

Golf is basically the same. There's a max limit as to how good you can score (give or a take a stroke or so , for this discussion) the handicap system is really aimed at leveling scores relative to PAR. The farther your level exceeds that score and approaches the "Max" possible score, the greater the same system fails/becomes irrelevant.

[Obee]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....
[/quote]

Good point about "tournament stroke average."

I will say two things:

1) If you can consistently play to a +4 index at your home course (not one good month where you have a bunch of low scores), you are a phenomenal golfer, and you have what it takes to [b]attempt[/b] to take your game to the next level for you (whatever that may be). You will need financial backing, and a great putting stroke under pressure to make even a modest living as a Tour pro, though.

2) Your tournament stroke average post is right on the money. The pros make their living by shooting in the 60's [b]in tournaments[/b]. When I was playing my very, very best in the 2004 to 2007 time frame (as a mid-amateur with a full-time job and family) I shot in the 60's in tournaments a few times. I shot 73, 69, 69 to finish third at the SCGA Mid-Amateur at North Ranch CC in Westlake Village, CA; 70, 66 at the Chino Amateur to finish second; and a couple times in the Riverside County Amateur, but that's it. At that time, I was between a +2 and a +3.4 (my lowest index). I was playing the absolute best golf I've ever played. I was still not even close to good enough to play on any legitimate pro tour. I was just too inconsistent. Way too many rounds in the mid to high 70's and even occasional rounds in the 80's.

Sure, I could have knocked around on the mini-tours and cashed some small 3rd to 8th place checks when I got really hot, but that would have been it for me.

So, there you have it. I was a +2 to +3, and I wasn't good enough to even [b]consider[/b] attempting to play for a true living.

[sheppy335]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354789326' post='6026325']
Ok, I know every year I get into a big debate about how good the guys on tour actually are. For those of you who are bored with this topic please forgive me.

I just wanted to point out a few numbers from q school...

The two courses at PGA West are rated 76.1/150 and 75.3/143

The guy that finished last in the whole field, Scott Pinckney, had a stroke average of 74.1. That means that his average differential entered in the computer for the week would be +1.5 or so. This is the worst guy in the field for the whole week.

The guy that finished first had a stroke average of 67.8. So His average differential would be +7.7

I realize these numbers don't equate to handicap ( they would actually have lower handicaps) but I'm just pointing out the averages.

How many guys do you know that have a stroke average that is nearly 8 strokes under your course rating?


Once again, I'm glad I got the Am Status back. Carts and a few beers is where it's at!


It's cold and snowing in Calgary and I'm bored so please discuss...
[/quote]

I have to agree with you, they are that much better then an average Joe. These guys are good doesnt even cover the lesser know guys, and it shows you how much better the top 30 in the world are then everyone else.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1354895950' post='6032909']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....
[/quote]

Good point about "tournament stroke average."

I will say two things:

1) If you can consistently play to a +4 index at your home course (not one good month where you have a bunch of low scores), you are a phenomenal golfer, and you have what it takes to [b]attempt[/b] to take your game to the next level for you (whatever that may be). You will need financial backing, and a great putting stroke under pressure to make even a modest living as a Tour pro, though.

2) Your tournament stroke average post is right on the money. The pros make their living by shooting in the 60's [b]in tournaments[/b]. When I was playing my very, very best in the 2004 to 2007 time frame (as a mid-amateur with a full-time job and family) I shot in the 60's in tournaments a few times. I shot 73, 69, 69 to finish third at the SCGA Mid-Amateur at North Ranch CC in Westlake Village, CA; 70, 66 at the Chino Amateur to finish second; and a couple times in the Riverside County Amateur, but that's it. At that time, I was between a +2 and a +3.4 (my lowest index). I was playing the absolute best golf I've ever played. I was still not even close to good enough to play on any legitimate pro tour. I was just too inconsistent. Way too many rounds in the mid to high 70's and even occasional rounds in the 80's.

Sure, I could have knocked around on the mini-tours and cashed some small 3rd to 8th place checks when I got really hot, but that would have been it for me.

So, there you have it. I was a +2 to +3, and I wasn't good enough to even [b]consider[/b] attempting to play for a true living.
[/quote]

Good points. As another example, if you look at the posted scores for the Alberta Amateur for the last 10 years, almost every year there were some decent scores where the best players shot around 10 under for the week. they only won by a few shots and some years 4 or 5 under won but again, only by a shot or two.
then one year 3 guys shot 20 under and the 4th place guy was 16 shot's out of third. All three of those guys ended up playing some golf on the Nationwide tour and they've all won events on the Canadian tour. But in 10 years, it's pretty much only been those 3 guys that have done anything at the pro level worth mentioning.

The level that you should be at to consider playing professionally has to be so much better than everyone in your area. Finishing 4th in one of the years where the competition was only so-so might allow someone to think they were better than they are. the same guy finishing 4th in the year where he would have been 16 shots out of 3rd would likely have far less delusion as far as turning pro goes..

I'm not saying that guy couldn't get better and maybe make it one day. I'm just saying that his current ability is not nearly good enough to compete at the highest levels.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that [b]an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....[/b]
[/quote]

I have been around a number of tour guys, and would agree. Difference comes down to one's [u]ability to step up[/u] their game "under tour pressure". Some of the best golfers in the world are not on tour for that very reason.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354910216' post='6034445']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that [b]an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....[/b]
[/quote]

I have been around a number of tour guys.
[/quote]

Who?

[Sean2]

I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]
What was his handicap?

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Sean! Post of the day, Stop the voting!

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1354911001' post='6034535']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354910216' post='6034445']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that [b]an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....[/b]
[/quote]

I have been around a number of tour guys.
[/quote]

Who?
[/quote]

I am only posting this as you seem to have a short memory??? We agreed not to post to one another - which is best!