What do you think?

[Geo]

You lost alot of class with that pic, IMHO.

Impartial? Not by the look of it. You made some points, then had to go that way.

Starting to look like TCC, not a compliment.

LaMont in AZ

 

Come on LaMont, overreact much? Maybe I was just a kid on the playground trying to play the one-up game. :cheesy: There's no reason to get upset, and sever relationships over this whole thing--and I don't mean me. Just because I posted a picture (that was tongue-in-cheek! i was searching for a pic from the "making copies" SNL skit--but that era predates the internet I guess) doesn't take away any of the points I made. This place is FAR from looking like the TCC as far as bias goes, but in this respect I don't mind if people get upset that Tom looks at a very unique putter makes a direct copy (as well as his program/programmer will allow) and stamps "Slighter Prototype" on it. You think Slighter is keeping Cameron and Bettinardi on their toes? Probably, but only to the extent that everyone will be making more trips to the patent office. :)

 

Bottom line, when you make a name for yourself by double-checking what is and what isn't patented (btw--the superman logo that Tom did a while back--very patented), you might want to reexamine your business plan. Tom did a putter that I thought was incredible, Hungsolo's orthopedic symbol. Very nice. This stuff (web, scotty stuff, bettinardi stuff, superman), not so much. And again, as far as impartiality goes--I've paid for every putter I have (except a freebie from golow from way back in the day), and supported these putter guys before they've become sponsors. Bias for me isn't the issue. Respect for the putter maker is, not just for one. Class? I'll be ok. :cheesy:

[mth1081]

Here they are together.....pretty close....

[johndeere10]

http://www.slightergolf.com/refinished/rdetails.asp?id=1

 

Glad to see he refinishes his own work on other people's putters.... LOL

[Geo]

http://www.slightergolf.com/refinished/rdetails.asp?id=1

 

Glad to see he refinishes his own work on other people's putters.... LOL

 

Don't get me wrong--this is where I can really appreciate some of Slighter's work. He does an amazing job on some of the refinishes he does, and makes many putters that would otherwise be best left as scrap metal into prized gamers (sans the stamping thing). From all the picutures I've seen, outside the OEM's, he's one of the best at adding tungsten weights as well. I just have a feeling I won't be getting any buddy discounts from him. :)

[Seve424]

I thought prototype means "we're thinking about making some more of these for mass release".

 

With Slighter it seems to mean "I cut some holes in the head"

 

 

pro·to·type (prt-tp) KEY

 

NOUN:

 

An original type, form, or instance serving as a basis or standard for later stages.

An original, full-scale, and usually working model of a new product or new version of an existing product.

[MikeJohnson]

I'm with Chris on this one. When I heard he was copying Cameron stampings a few months ago it really pissed me off. I can imagine how many crooks sent the putters in to get the stamps on sold them on ebay or some place else as tour putters. Now he is copying Betts designs. Whats next? With the talent Tom has why cant he come up with something on his own?

[JustinFL83]

I think that is very disrespectful what Tom did, although the oriental lettering is very well done. All Tom had to do when asked to something other companies do is say "No." It's that simple. Instead he choose to do copying of designs so he choose his reputation, like it or not.

 

Personally, after seeing this it has made me happier with my decision to get a Byron.

[HipCheck]

It's a blatant copy of an original design. Sure, the customer approached Tom and said 'hey, can you do this?' but that still doesn't make it correct.

 

Sure maybe the spiderweb design is not copyrighted, but that doesn't mean you should still COPY the design from one of the top 3 puttermakers in the world. Be original. Just don't do work to make some dough.

 

Sorry, but it's obvious that Bettinardi 'got Slighted'© on this one :) (That's my new term - I'm copyrighting it)

[Seve424]

I think the only way to settle this would be to have an Iron Chef style competiton where Cameron, Bettinardi and Slighter had a "stamp off".

[johndeere10]

Seve they would have to put Tom in a room by himself so he wouldn't copy the other two!!! :) :cheesy:

[xxio]

It's a blatant copy of an original design. Sure, the customer approached Tom and said 'hey, can you do this?' but that still doesn't make it correct.

 

Sure maybe the spiderweb design is not copyrighted, but that doesn't mean you should still COPY the design from one of the top 3 puttermakers in the world. Be original. Just don't do work to make some dough.

 

Sorry, but it's obvious that Bettinardi 'got Slighted'© on this one :cheesy: (That's my new term - I'm copyrighting it)

 

 

Hey I used that term a couple of posts up. Apparently I didn't copyright it quick enough though :). Can you give me a discount on royalties instead?

 

Apparently in this age of "customer service" it is harder to say "no".

 

Hello Toby.

 

I appreciate your email and your concern.

I will certainly take your request into consideration.

However, please understand I must also respect the

rights and requests of all my customers. I will do my

best to accommodate a customers request within

reason and not to violate any copyrights or patents.

Thank you Toby.

t

 

 

You got to give it to Tom, all this controversy is getting his name out there, every so often I think of ordering a Slighter but then this pops up.

[Seve424]

His refinish work is great, but those tour dots and dancing letters on his putters are goofy.

 

If you saw his spider putter in Golf Galaxy what would you think? Hey, it's a fake Bettinardi.

[stage1350]

The Dreamweaver was put out there to showcase Bettinardi’s ability as a putter maker and machinist. He took a radical design and made a collector’s dream. Were these putters really meant to be put into play? No. They were marketed to collectors for their collections.

 

The same can be said about Scotty’s “graffiti” putters. Does anyone expect to see these on Tour? They were meant to demonstrate Scotty’s ability to create a work of art.

 

The argument could be made that Tom Slighter a) was given a challenge by a customer and stepped up. Or b) Like Bettinardi, he wanted to show is talents as a machinist and to show that he has the ability to do fine detail milling like the Dreamweaver.

 

I’m a huge Bettinardi fan. The Dreamweaver was cool, but not my cup of tea. The Ryder Cup putters with the American flag on the face are incredible. I’d love to see that on a BB-2. I doubt that any of these putters are going to go into play. Their price and numbers will keep them locked safely away.

 

This has not turned me off to Slighter. I have a concept for a custom stamped putter that I would like to eventually have built in the future. Scotty and Bobby probably wouldn’t touch it without me taking a second mortgage out on my house. Tom’s work is very skilled and I believe that he would be up to the challenge.

 

Not to dredge up negativity, but Scotty was called Mr. Xerox for a long time too. You have to look at both sides of the argument and realize that there are copies/tributes all over the golf industry and not just putters. It’s just putters that get everyone’s blood boiling.

[Caligula]

Wow this is one hell of a thread! For me the designs are so similar that the only ethical approach would have been to ask for permission to copy the original design or at the very least acknowledge it.

[xxio]

I agree somewhat stage1350, but what prevents Tom from coming up with his own "collectible design". Something that may be worth $$$ down the road, instead of a reminder of him copying another puttermaker... again "customer service"? When do you say no?

 

Open question to JGalls, Glenwayputters, Xtrastiff (yes I see you all in here)....would your putter guys do a "dreamweaver" on their putters knowing Bett has made one?

[lumbee1977]

When I ordered my Slighter, I have to admit, just like this thread I was over obsessed with the stampings, trying to get it to look just right. Just my 2 cents, but what I failed to relize then was I was getting the best PERFORMING putter I have evcer own or seen. To me, that is all that matters now.

[Seve424]

To make a collectible putter I think you need the "elite" status that Cameron, Bett, and Mills have, and he doesn't have it.

[tdcollectors]

My concern is when these putters enter the market and get passed off as something they are NOT! The same happens to irons and drivers, KNOCKOFFS!

 

BUYER BEWARE!!!

[Gxgolfer]

It looks like people need to take a step back and take a deep breath.

 

Its pretty obvious that someone is a Marvel fan and requested Tom to make a putter like the dreamweaver. The retail price for a dreamweaver probably was not something that was within the requester's approved budget range. There is no infringment and I doubt any of these puttermakers would give a second thought to someone trying their hand at a design.

 

It may look the same because of the face webbing but beyond that, the precision instrumentation used is very different and the feel and roll off the face is probably world's apart.

 

I've personally talked with with many of the top putter makers and they all respect each other's abilities in a very competitive environment. The Puttermakers have an extreme passion for their work and what they do. They only care about copying when legal lines are crossed and then they leave it to their lawyers.

 

The work speaks for itself and it looks like this has blown into something more than it really should be.

[xxio]

My concern is when these putters enter the market and get passed off as something they are NOT! The same happens to irons and drivers, KNOCKOFFS!

 

BUYER BEWARE!!!

 

 

That issue has been addressed in a previous thread. Tom Slighter apparently no longer puts other peoples stampings on other peoples putters per Mitch/MPH.

 

He now only puts other peoples stampings on his own putters :)

 

Legally that is no longer an issue. Ethically depends on your own ethics.

[jcigars]

My concern is when these putters enter the market and get passed off as something they are NOT! The same happens to irons and drivers, KNOCKOFFS!

 

BUYER BEWARE!!!

 

 

This is the only problem I see with this never ending topic. Someone ends up commiting fraud.

 

I have nothing against Tom he did some work on my Laguna and IMO he's one of the best to do the work I had him do on it.

 

And what's the problem with TCC ?

 

Jimmy

[xxio]

It looks like people need to take a step back and take a deep breath.

 

Its pretty obvious that someone is a Marvel fan and requested Tom to make a putter like the dreamweaver. The retail price for a dreamweaver probably was not something that was within the requester's approved budget range. There is no infringment and I doubt any of these puttermakers would give a second thought to someone trying their hand at a design.

 

It may look the same because of the face webbing but beyond that, the precision instrumentation used is very different and the feel and roll off the face is probably world's apart.

 

I've personally talked with with many of the top putter makers and they all respect each other's abilities in a very competitive environment. The Puttermakers have an extreme passion for their work and what they do. They only care about copying when legal lines are crossed and then they leave it to their lawyers.

 

The work speaks for itself and it looks like this has blown into something more than it really should be.

 

 

GX,

 

Maybe Tom should've have come up with his own interpretation. Maybe a different style/take, like having the web start at the sweetspot for example? It is just too similar. The diffrence in process can simple be explained by the lack of machining available.

 

We won't know how Bett feels unless he posts about it. We will never know SCs stand about the previous stamping as well. It will always be safer to err on the safe side though isn't it?

[joesgonegolfing]

Only the webbed man himself should have a problem with this,

 

Signed

Spider Man's agent

[drewspin]

I'll add my thoughts - which are a slight tangent. I think Beruo made some good points. Also I did not read Chris's comments as a personal attack, just his strong opinion.

 

My take: In the modern era there have been relatively few truly groundbreaking design innovations in putters, and FAR more incremental tweaks to others designs. Most of the really wacky original stuff has fallen by the wayside (the bassackward putter comes to mind) -- and thank god for that. I think there is some great innovation going on RIGHT NOW. For exampel we are privileged to get a peek at Dave Billings machine putters line, or Sergizmo's garage creations, or the Byron stuff, or David Mills tradition or boxwood models.

 

Even real innovators and fine craftsman (and by craftsman I mean the sculptors and artists who can hand-make their own putters from scratch) have copied others in a fairly direct way, while continuing to innovate (boldly or incrementally) with their own styles and ideas. Byron and John started with a TourAngle M029 which was a pretty damn good direct copy of the Scottsdale anser. Bobby Grace made NGK Berylcos that were direct copies of KBI Scottsdales. Scotty Cameron produces a tour-only milled model (currently fetching big bucks) that is a pretty damn direct copy of a previous model by another not so famous putter maker. Most modern blades are very close copies of 8802s (props to Robert Mendrella).

 

Regarding the web design: It's clear that Tom Slighter is not trying to pass off the spiderweb design to make people think this putter is a Bettinardi by making a direct copy of RJB stamps or the like (or even by putting it on an 8802-style blade). The design is an immitation, and by that, he flatters Bettinardi.

 

When Byron makes a handmade like the one in my signature that resembles a TP Mills Model 1 (or Scott Cameron does the same with his garagemades -> Scottsman 941 -> Coronado) do I say "Hey that guy sucks -- He just xeroxed TP's design?"

 

I do not. I say "Nice craftsmanship on the handmade. Nice homage to TP's design."

 

What is different, IMHO, is the case of adding aftermarket Cameron stampings to a Cameron putter for the purpose of pretending to be a handstamped Cameron - that is seriously unethical and crosses the line -- BIG TIME.

 

As a moonlight adventure, I've designed a putter that Byron is going to make as a handmade prototype. I enlisted Sam Rhee (4heel) for some illustration help to help translate my vision onto paper. Did I borrow some themes from others? You bet. Is the final product an original design that is not at all a copy of anything (as far as I know)? Yep.

 

I hope to post some production pictures here as soon as Byron is able to start work on it. Some of you guys have already had a sneak peek.

 

Cheers,

Drew

[Gxgolfer]

Let's keep this on topic to the Original Posters comments.

 

To that end, no one's going to confuse that Slighter for a Bettinardi. The Bettinardi Nano Milled putters start at around $2500 and will probably go higher. And yes, they are probably attainable through TKS and Studio B.

 

As for TCC, they are passionate Cameron Collectors and I've heard bad comments about every site on their. I've read some threads where people think all WRX does is bash Scotty...

 

 

 

My concern is when these putters enter the market and get passed off as something they are NOT! The same happens to irons and drivers, KNOCKOFFS!

 

BUYER BEWARE!!!

 

 

This is the only problem I see with this never ending topic. Someone ends up commiting fraud.

 

I have nothing against Tom he did some work on my Laguna and IMO he's one of the best to do the work I had him do on it.

 

And what's the problem with TCC ?

 

Jimmy

 

GX,

 

Maybe Tom should've have come up with his own interpretation. Maybe a different style/take, like having the web start at the sweetspot for example? It is just too similar. The diffrence in process can simple be explained by the lack of machining available.

 

We won't know how Bett feels unless he posts about it. We will never know SCs stand about the previous stamping as well. It will always be safer to err on the safe side though isn't it?

 

These guys are too busy and have learned past lessons not to get into these types of discussions on message boards. They will always take the high road in public now.

 

Tom is relatively new compared to Industry Veterans and he is following his own path. His success or failure is dependant on his customers and what they think.

[SwingMan]

Wow this is one hell of a thread! For me the designs are so similar that the only ethical approach would have been to ask for permission to copy the original design or at the very least acknowledge it.

 

 

I don't know - I doubt if Scotty, Bett, etc. asked Karsten or Mills or Tad Moore if they could copy designs. If there is no patent, trademark or copyright, it seems to be fair game. It would have been courteous for them to inform Karsten, et al, not to be surprised when they see their designs copied or modified by them. But it would just be a courtesy.

 

To me, this dreamweaver copying is just an extension of the copying or modifying of heads, oval sight dots, hosels, stampings, finishes, etc.without copyrights/trademarks that we have seen for years.

 

The dreamweaver is so unique - it makes the "inspired by" more noticeable and therefore more controversial

 

As to the depiction of Tom as a clown, that is bad taste and a personal attack - but he makes fine putters. The Cameron ho's, though, probably got a kick out of it. As to the "devil of the south" comment, it's not a personal attack if you say other people refer to him in that manner -- although I don't "get" that moniker -- calling anyone a "debil" shows a lack of taste and imagination. And I know Cameron guys pride themselves on taste, if not imagination.

 

Much ado about nothing, guys. Enjoy.

[DB MACHINE]

I thought I would add my two cents here, as a putter maker. (and thanks to the earlier inclusion in this discussion – I am honored to be mentioned in the same sentence, even if by fist name – and screen name – alone).

 

I was brought up and schooled as an artist and designer. Artists have drawn inspiration from all aspects of life, including other art. Some of the best art has come about when artists worked closely together, and inspired and even challenged each other. This was true of Picasso and Matisse, and also in too many other movements to list here.

 

What is so neat to me is that I see this phenomenon happening here in putter design. Of course Cameron has been inspired by Karsten (numerous models), as he has also been by Mills, Palmer / Wilson 8802 (Napa), Brian Pond (Rossie 2 / Red X), etc., etc. I wish that SC gave more credit to those that inspired him (Inspired by Brad Faxon is a little misleading IMO), but the fact is, he is taking his inspiration and running with it in his own way, putting his own personality, creativity, hard work, blood sweat and tears into his work, to make it his own.

 

I personally always talk about those that inspire me. One of my proudest moments was when Mr. Solheim (Karsten) and another PING executive came by my booth and actually fawned over our 1004R, a putter I designed and was able to patent the design of (I was also pretty darn proud when that putter won two Nationwide events and then the South African Open, the worlds second oldest national open). I was just as proud when one of the greatest players in the game used our Retro2 putter in the Masters. The Retro2 was a morph of the 8802, a Crenshaw version and a tiny little bit from a George Low wizard that the team at Impact Golf Technologies helped me with. I was proud that we studied the details of each “host” and then also added my own touches and technologies (slightly oversized, milled face and HOG shaft for increased stability and minimized torque, etc). A review of historic clubs will show that this type of modernizing, or updating of classic designs has bene going on for hundreds of years, and is as much about the traditions and history of the game as any other aspect.

 

A quick note on expired patents. One of the aspects of patent law is that you get intellectual property protection during the life of the patent. After that, the invention becomes “public domain” and anyone and everyone can use it, especially when you really need that design to compete, as it is with the anser-style in putters. However, Kasten’s family and business can still benefit and draw from this heritage, as the originators (there can only be one “first) and continue to capitalize on this historic, iconic design (note the new Redwood ads). The challenge for them, as with the rest of us, is to try to improve upon it. Because Karsten’s designs were so amazingly good, and have been used so successfully by so many, this challenge is significant, but I think attainable to those who really work at it. Cameron definitely improved on the original cast putters in his more modern materials, milling processes and workmanship, and attention to details that his customers wanted (including tour players). Isn’t it a little ironic that Ping is now selling their own milled line, one that many might say draws from Cameron’s work?

 

It is also a little ironic that Slighter is getting the heat for his attempts to satisfy his customers’ requests and his own inspirations.... He obviously does beautiful work, and has great reputation for customer service. However, IMHO, he crossed the line when “upgrading” existing Cameron putters to incorporate known Cameron TM’s, or very close versions, to add value, even if for his customers – he was still profiting from it... I am glad he said he has stopped that, but then this dreamweaver thing... FYI, Trademarks are different from patents in that they last the life of the product, as long as they are in continual use. Trademarks, especially registered, “®” and those that are actually corporate “brands,” can be even more valuable than patents for this, and other obvious reasons.

 

However, doing aftermarket work like refinishes, sound slots, welded necks are all OK in my book, as long as the maker doing the work puts HIS marks on the putter and no one is passing them off as someone else’s Tour models, etc. As I said in an earlier post on another thread, I equate aftermarket work, especially really creative work, as being comparable to hot rods and custom choppers, etc., and have done my own work in this arena (someday I will post some pics...). Who here hasn’t experimented with a refinish, plating or paint fills? Is a copper plated SC putter possible to pass off as a more rare milled all-copper putter? Probably not, but you see where the line can get blurred here too, but are less blurry when new marks are used.

 

And finally, for whatever it is worth, the Bettinardi spider web design actually reminded me of a Spyerco knife design (including the little spyder “bug” logo) when I first saw it...maybe a reason he didn’t ever TM it or go into production. SC admits taking the red dot from Leica, and the F in Futura sure looks like the F in Fender guitars.. Inspiration came come from anywhere, and the more diverse places, sometimes the more impactful the outcome. The less diverse, well, you know.

 

I say, let each collector decide for themselves what is a worthy creation, what is a non-creative or blatant copy, and what you like and you don’t like. In art, and I guess in putters too, it really is “to each his own.”

 

Sorry if I rambled on.

 

Best,

 

-Dave

[Seve424]

Unless somebody wins a tour event with a spider web faced putter it ain't gonna matter.

 

When RJB gets a call from Mizuno that there's a rush for spider putters, that's when he gets concerned. There's no money in it.

[Gxgolfer]

Well said Dave.

[xxio]

These guys are too busy and have learned past lessons not to get into these types of discussions on message boards. They will always take the high road in public now.

 

Tom is relatively new compared to Industry Veterans and he is following his own path. His success or failure is dependant on his customers and what they think.

 

 

I agree the high road is a better, they may do more damage than good by going public. It is sometimes frustrating.

 

Headshape is not the issue. Being inspired by other headshapes has never been a problem. The are only so many headshapes to go around.

 

I'm just being hard headed but i still can see why Tom can't just make his own interpretation of a spider web and avoid controversy. The more I look at it, it is impossible for him to have made his putter without seeing the Bett. It is just too similar. Heck, it it the same.

 

He will always have customers, his work is quite good not to have any. I myself would probably have 2or 3 putters by him by now if my ethics didn't get in the way.

 

I'm still waiting for the official "I'm no longer doing SC stampings on SC puitters" statement by Tom. We have a statement by MPH/Mitch that he no longer does it, it is just a formality for Tom to come out with his own. That would shut up a lot of people including me.