hands at address..discussion

[JPGolf FL]

Here you go. Who has a bigger PA3 angle? Who's club turns the corner harder?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYqaM54faoE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P5N_ncudno

[eightiron]

[quote name='AbbVT24' timestamp='1368539854' post='7031994']
Maybe we should just start an "I want to argue with iteach" thread. I don't venture into this subforum much, but it seems like this is standard procedure:

[/quote]

lol

[Eastflava0]

too low is better than too high.

like heel down on putter is better than toe down.

"Swing Your Swing!"

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368539809' post='7031990']
I'm busy and can't get into this but you're wrong and obviously confused. With zero PA3 there is no travel with left arm rotation. So left arm rotation doesn't make the club move in an arc. The only arc is created by the pivot. With a large PA3 forearm rotation creates a large arc. Now when pivot is added you have two factors making the club head travel in an arc thus creating much sharper angle. It also makes you steeper as a latger PA3 inherent has the club head higher off the ground later in the downswing. Again you have everything backwards and if for one second listened instead of argued you might learn something. It's what you learn after you think you know it all that matters
[/quote]

So the only way to do it with zeroed out PA3 is with the rotated setup? (strong lead hand, neutral right; forearms pre-rotated at setup to those who have never seen the term...I think)

How does handle height and space hands are away from body when in a rotated setup change Approach/attack angles vs everything else we've talked about in the thread? Same/same?

The further I have my hands away from me at address the more likely I am to load PA3 first off the ball and be way underplane at P2 with a high left shoulder. That kind of defeats the purpose of setting up to be shallow at impact lol

Since nobody else said it (that I can remember). Thanks for your comments in this thread. I know we went over some of this in my last lesson. Its nice to have a reference online

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1368547594' post='7033010']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368539809' post='7031990']
I'm busy and can't get into this but you're wrong and obviously confused. With zero PA3 there is no travel with left arm rotation. So left arm rotation doesn't make the club move in an arc. The only arc is created by the pivot. With a large PA3 forearm rotation creates a large arc. Now when pivot is added you have two factors making the club head travel in an arc thus creating much sharper angle. It also makes you steeper as a latger PA3 inherent has the club head higher off the ground later in the downswing. Again you have everything backwards and if for one second listened instead of argued you might learn something. It's what you learn after you think you know it all that matters
[/quote]

So the only way to do it with zeroed out PA3 is with the rotated setup? (strong lead hand, neutral right; forearms pre-rotated at setup to those who have never seen the term...I think)

How does handle height and space hands are away from body when in a rotated setup change Approach/attack angles vs everything else we've talked about in the thread? Same/same?

The further I have my hands away from me at address the more likely I am to load PA3 first off the ball and be way underplane at P2 with a high left shoulder. That kind of defeats the purpose of setting up to be shallow at impact lol

Since nobody else said it (that I can remember). Thanks for your comments in this thread. I know we went over some of this in my last lesson. Its nice to have a reference online
[/quote]
The stronger the grip of the left hand, the more zeroed out you will be. As you turn your hand stronger on the grip the wrist uncocks. If you had a really strong grip and attempted a large pa3 angle from there you would have to lean the shaft way too far forward at impact to hold the face open and get the handle low. Just getting into tgm, this is how I understand thus far anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[PingG10guy]

Yeah I can do it with shorter clubs on occasion. As Dan said earlier if hands are higher further at p1 then it allows for more shaft lean at impact...i do so much reading that I sometimes forget the few key things he told me that allow me to create space and get the angles to make it work.

Im just going to go full retard and have hands too far and too high. Yolo! Lol

[Hstead]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1368551787' post='7033548']
Yeah I can do it with shorter clubs on occasion. As Dan said earlier if hands are higher further at p1 then it allows for more shaft lean at impact...i do so much reading that I sometimes forget the few key things he told me that allow me to create space and get the angles to make it work.

Im just going to go full retard and have hands too far and too high. Yolo! Lol
[/quote]

I hear you. I am getting ready to go full retard myself even though I know the dangers of it. Everyone knows you never go full retard, but sometimes if you want to make a change, you have to.

[PingG10guy]

Wait...jbl started the "what is pa3" thread then challenged dc?

Jbl make a vid of your pattern you proposed. Starting to sound like a loose terminology thing on your part which can happen if you aren't classically trained.

These are the issues with discussing specifics of tgm online.

[PingG10guy]

Nevermind on the rotated setup question Dan. You already answered that. "All other things constant"

How about this...

So we have handle higher is more shallow (AOA); where as handle lower is more steep(AOA)

What about handle more forward and higher vs handle less forward and higher?

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368539809' post='7031990']
I'm busy and can't get into this but you're wrong and obviously confused. With zero PA3 there is no travel with left arm rotation. So left arm rotation doesn't make the club move in an arc. The only arc is created by the pivot. With a large PA3 forearm rotation creates a large arc. Now when pivot is added you have two factors making the club head travel in an arc thus creating much sharper angle. It also makes you steeper as a latger PA3 inherent has the club head higher off the ground later in the downswing. Again you have everything backwards and if for one second listened instead of argued you might learn something. It's what you learn after you think you know it all that matters
[/quote]

Understood. As I said, I don't know it all. But that doesn't mean I just agree and agree as I have an opinion always and don't wanna be a blind bat. I wanna know the reasons/rationales before I change my mind. And I'm not just doin this to argue. I'm for learning. I'm amazed you keep sayin I'm confused and a know it all.

You basically agreed with me. I said if there's no forearm rotation, you're right. The only mistake I said, which I admit I'm wrong, is zeroed out #3 still having forearm rotation.

So in all full swings where zeroing out #3 is nonexistent and hence there's forearm rotation, what I said is true. Read again what I posted.

So let me ask, if there will be forearm rotation (not zeroed out #3 which has none as you said correctly), would it be correct to say a bigger #3 with longer clubhead travel result to a straighter path or less curved path for a given amount of L hand roll?

If there's shoulder turn, would it be correct to say a bigger #3 results to clubhead farther from body and hence causes path to be less straight (more curved, right?

So I suggest retain the big #3 angle to get the benefits of the 2nd previous paragraph above, and then just offset the more curved path stated in immediately previous paragraph by turning the shoulders more vertically rather than level thru neck tilt maintenance and L side extension.

What's your thoughts in this?

[PingG10guy]

Well, Dan already said in another thread that the medicine for someone trying to play with a lot of PA3 is Secondary Axis Tilt and Extension (shoulders vertical/ left extension you said)

He also said in another thread long ago that the more the left arm is in the more PA3 you need to keep it on the circle.

So I have another question...if the left arm wasnt in and you have a lot of PA3 then youd raise the handle? Which would increase the rate of closure which would defeat the purpose of having the desire to use a lot of PA3 (Clubhead turns the corner with a slow rate of closure)?

Just drawing conclusions and guessing here...thinking about the release as a reactionary procedure

[iteachgolf]

No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368577412' post='7036280']
No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.
[/quote]

Dan is 100% correct here and so clearly true and impossible to refute once you understand what he is saying. A lot of golfers have trouble distinguishing between the face angle and the clubhead, and I think a lot of confusion results because of that. When the entire clubhead moves in some kind of arc, that is path. When the face angle moves independently of that path, ie does not stay square to the path, that is independent face angle rotation. With an un-c0cked left wrist, when the forearms rotate, ONLY the face angle moves - NOT the entire clubhead. When left wrist is c0cked, the entire clubhead moves in a big arcing motion...crystal clear and indisupatable.

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='JPeacockGolf' timestamp='1368538924' post='7031888']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368537432' post='7031680']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368530588' post='7031124']

This stuff is where you are WAY wrong. 98% of tour players have left wrist level at impact. Haven't seen one fully uncocked. In fact I teach a lot of golf and rarely see anyone fully uncocked. In fact I see way more high handicaps with hands too low at impact for their pattern. Wrist goes from cocked to level at impact. It's uncorking but not becoming uncocked. Big difference.

[quote]
What I'm after is to avoid that, to catch the ball while the clubhead is going/travelling more level (not downwards), and straighter as well (arc/path straighter). The only way to do this is to have a big #3 angle AND to set the full uncock of the clubhead exactly on the ground level...I want #2 accum to release fully, afraid to slow it down while its being released...and its release is unavoidable...
[/quote]

This shows your true lack of understanding. PA3 makes you inherently steep. The larger pa3 angle the sharper the angle of attack and angle of approach. If you want the shaft traveling straighter into the ball and more level with the ground you'd want zero PA3. You know like a putter. Again you are confused and don't understand the implications and have a lot of it backwards.
[/quote]

Naaaah...don't think so Dan. I respectfully disagree with you on most of that, especially on straighter path more zeroed out #3.

With the longer clubhead travel of an unzeroed #3, and obviously shorter clubhead travel of zeroed out #3 for the same amount of L hand turn/roll, the arc travelled by the clubhead would be less curved with the bigger #3.

If there's no forearm rotation at all in both instances, yes a bigger #3 would have a more curved clubhead path compared to zeroed out one, but that's only because the bigger #3 angle puts the clubhead farther from your body/L shoulder hinge. So without L forearm rotation, but with L shoulder rotation, zeroed out #3 is straighter. You're right, zeroed out #3 has less curved path...but this is only in relation to the L shoulder hinge. So if there's only one hinge hinging (L shoulder), I'd agree with you.

But there's another hinge involved here, the L wrist hinge. As you said in another thread, there's always L forearm rotation in any full swing. So there's another hinge to be taken into account--the L wrist hinge. Since we do rotate the L wrist and hence have its resulting hinge-ing effects on the swing, we have to consider it.

For this L wrist hinge, it's better to have a bigger #3 for longer clubhead travel for a given forearm rotation as opposed to a zeroed out one. So with respect to only L wrist hinge, the clubhead travel is now longer and thus less curved, which is what we are after.

But how about the more curved path in respect to L shoulder hinge?? Well, "farther" clubhead from body that inherently results to more curved arc can easily be solved with a more vertical shoulder turn, not zeroed out #3.

A zeroed out #3 may straighten the path relative to L shoulder, but will cause a more curved path I respect to L wrist hinge. Plus there's faster face closure.

Problem now is how to do this procedure since almost nobody teaches and has been doing this, except IMO Hogan, Nelson, Schlee, Bolt, Palmer, Player, Burke Jr. and Venturi.
[/quote]

Respectfully, that is just incorrect. The big PA3angle causes more clubhead travel with less hand travel. So the clubhead is traveling further around a more fixed point. How can that happen? It has to move on an arc. If the shaft and left arm are in more of a straight line(small pa3 ang) the arc is softer and less sharp. Why does hogans club head go left so quick while someones who slings it down the line with a small pa3 does not? On mobile now so can't really show it but I'm sure Dan can easily.
[/quote]

See my previous post to Dan.

And like to add...since there's longer clubhead travel for a give turn of L hand, there's slower rate of clubface closure, right? Why would we not want that?

Even assuming (without admitting) that bigger #3 results to a more curved path after consideration of both L shoulder and L wrist hinges, why not retain it for the slower face closure and then just address the "more curved path" problem via turning shoulders more vertical?

With this, you got to maximize and make most efficient the L wrist hinge without sacrificing benefits of an efficient L shoulder hinge?

JPG and Dan, I honestly would like to be CONVINCED away from this if I'm wrong. But a simple "you're confused/wrong" will not suffice for me.

ABBTV, do you even scratch what we're talking about in here? FWIW, only Dan was able to discuss these things with me, agreement or disagreement. And I appreciate it very much. So would you slack it off please and try understanding what obviously you don't?

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368577412' post='7036280']
No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.
[/quote]

Ok ok ok...to some people repetitive you're wrong/confused/etc wont do it...

My question was, how about for those with still with #3 angle left and hence there's clubhead travel left (which is almost all tour pros except Moe Norman and the likes...), why would one not want a bigger #3 angle (as opposed to going towards zeroing it out)?

[jblacoustics]

Btw, you said you've seen my swing, at setup my L wrist is fully uncocked. Butt of grip super trapped under the palm pad that during the swing even the palm pad doesn't move up at all. And the index and middle fingers don't let go nor loosen at all. Video still due from me to show this.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368537432' post='7031680']
Problem now is how to do this procedure since almost nobody teaches and has been doing this, except IMO Hogan, Nelson, Schlee, Bolt, Palmer, Player, Burke Jr. and Venturi.
[/quote]

Who are you?

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1368579912' post='7036644']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368577412' post='7036280']
No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.
[/quote]

Dan is 100% correct here and so clearly true and impossible to refute once you understand what he is saying. A lot of golfers have trouble distinguishing between the face angle and the clubhead, and I think a lot of confusion results because of that. When the entire clubhead moves in some kind of arc, that is path. When the face angle moves independently of that path, ie does not stay square to the path, that is independent face angle rotation. With an un-c0cked left wrist, when the forearms rotate, ONLY the face angle moves - NOT the entire clubhead. When left wrist is c0cked, the entire clubhead moves in a big arcing motion...crystal clear and indisupatable.
[/quote]

Glad to see you here Jim.

I'm talking the assumption that there's still remains angle between shaft and L forearm atheist impact even when L wrist is fully uncocked. This is due to the grip and will try to show this in a video.

And as I said to Dan, if zeroed out the #3 angle, I agree there's no clubhead travel and there's just face rotation. So the clubhead moves more in an arc as opposed to a straight line because its farther from the one that moves it---the L shoulder hinge.

Again I'm asking, how about if there's still #3 angle left (which to my mind is almost all decent golfers except Moe Norman), wouldn't a big #3 angle result to more arced or straighter clubHEAD path relative to L wrist hinge? The clubhead being farther from the L shoulder due to bigger #3 angle and this causing more curved clubHEAD path can be solved simply by turning your shoulders more vertical.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368581149' post='7036854']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368577412' post='7036280']
No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.
[/quote]

Ok ok ok...to some people repetitive you're wrong/confused/etc wont do it...

My question was, how about for those with still with #3 angle left and hence there's clubhead travel left (which is almost all tour pros except Moe Norman and the likes...), why would one not want a bigger #3 angle (as opposed to going towards zeroing it out)?
[/quote]

You want some but a big PA3 is hard to get the hang of. As you can see in your swing. If you roll with wrist c0ck you steepen the shaft, tip out and wipe across it. Which is exactly what you do. It also makes you incredibly steep. Something more in the middle ground, 90% of the tour, is much more achievable for the average golfer. Also the larger the angle the sharper the angle of approach and the sharper the aoa. This makes distance control extremely difficult and with AOA's affect on the clubhead's path makes controlling the path throughout the bag much more difficult. Also tough to hit driver that way.

So with a larger PA3 it's WAY more difficult to keep the club on plane through impact (not raise the handle) without steepinging the club and wiping across it. Your release of PA2 and 3 has to be perfectly sequenced to get the club head out to the ball. Most will clank the ball way off the toe or if the roll 3 faster than releasing 2 (what you do) they will hit heel cuts and shanks. A smaller PA3 angle makes it easier to keep the club on plane. Makes the path more neutral and easier to get the path zeroed out.

Turning your shoulders more vertical raises the handle which then decreases PA3. All these parts fit together. Again you are confused. I've explained this many times over and you may be hearing me but you arent listening. Keep in mind I'm doing this for free after teaching an 11 hour day outside plus coming home to online lessons. It's not my job to spoon feed you information for free because you don't understand. If you want to learn come pay and take a lesson. I've said more than I need to say and if you still can't get it oh well

[FAbb]

I've never read TGM, so I don't know all the terminology and concepts. I have always thought it would be an interesting read, though (right up my alley, since I got my degree in engineering mechanics). The problem here is that I didn't read the OPs first post and think, "I sure hope somebody comes in here and relentlessly argues with iteach about a semi-related TGM topic." I don't know him, and I've never even talked to him. What I do know is that the guy spends a lot of time in here sharing his advice, free of charge. Surely, he has spent years working hard to acquire the knowledge and experience that allows him to give that advice. I don't understand why people feel the need to constantly start disagreements with him, and hijack useful threads.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368581774' post='7036980']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1368579912' post='7036644']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368577412' post='7036280']
No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.
[/quote]

Dan is 100% correct here and so clearly true and impossible to refute once you understand what he is saying. A lot of golfers have trouble distinguishing between the face angle and the clubhead, and I think a lot of confusion results because of that. When the entire clubhead moves in some kind of arc, that is path. When the face angle moves independently of that path, ie does not stay square to the path, that is independent face angle rotation. With an un-c0cked left wrist, when the forearms rotate, ONLY the face angle moves - NOT the entire clubhead. When left wrist is c0cked, the entire clubhead moves in a big arcing motion...crystal clear and indisupatable.
[/quote]

Glad to see you here Jim.

I'm talking the assumption that there's still remains angle between shaft and L forearm atheist impact even when L wrist is fully uncocked. This is due to the grip and will try to show this in a video.

And as I said to Dan, if zeroed out the #3 angle, I agree there's no clubhead travel and there's just face rotation. So the clubhead moves more in an arc as opposed to a straight line because its farther from the one that moves it---the L shoulder hinge.

Again I'm asking, how about if there's still #3 angle left (which to my mind is almost all decent golfers except Moe Norman), wouldn't a big #3 angle result to more arced or straighter clubHEAD path relative to L wrist hinge? The clubhead being farther from the L shoulder due to bigger #3 angle and this causing more curved clubHEAD path can be solved simply by turning your shoulders more vertical.
[/quote]
The first step to being CONViNCED is to entertain the thought that you may be wrong. When two world class teachers tell you that you are wrong it's a good time to entertain that thought. (Jim and Dan, not me;)). A wise man once said, "you'd be surprised how much you can learn when you don't already know it all..... " actually I'm not sure if a wise man actually said that but it sounded good

[Hstead]

[quote name='AbbVT24' timestamp='1368583768' post='7037224']
I've never read TGM, so I don't know all the terminology and concepts. I have always thought it would be an interesting read, though (right up my alley, since I got my degree in engineering mechanics). The problem here is that I didn't read the OPs first post and think, "I sure hope somebody comes in here and relentlessly argues with iteach about a semi-related TGM topic." I don't know him, and I've never even talked to him. What I do know is that the guy spends a lot of time in here sharing his advice, free of charge. Surely, he has spent years working hard to acquire the knowledge and experience that allows him to give that advice. I don't understand why people feel the need to constantly start disagreements with him, and hijack useful threads.
[/quote]

Yep, it is becoming the norm. Then a guy like Jim Waldron chimes in and states Dan is 100% right and it still doesn't matter. One guy vs. a few teaching pros. OK!

In my mind it is very easy to understand. Dan has more than explained it. Again and again and again.

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1368581424' post='7036918']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368537432' post='7031680']
Problem now is how to do this procedure since almost nobody teaches and has been doing this, except IMO Hogan, Nelson, Schlee, Bolt, Palmer, Player, Burke Jr. and Venturi.
[/quote]

Who are you?
[/quote]

Nobody. And I'm not challenging Dan, just sayin my mind. Just happens I have a differing opinion. Can't see why we can disagree and be friends in the end...we're mature persons and can take disagreements...

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='AbbVT24' timestamp='1368583768' post='7037224']
I've never read TGM, so I don't know all the terminology and concepts. I have always thought it would be an interesting read, though (right up my alley, since I got my degree in engineering mechanics). The problem here is that I didn't read the OPs first post and think, "I sure hope somebody comes in here and relentlessly argues with iteach about a semi-related TGM topic." I don't know him, and I've never even talked to him. What I do know is that the guy spends a lot of time in here sharing his advice, free of charge. Surely, he has spent years working hard to acquire the knowledge and experience that allows him to give that advice. I don't understand why people feel the need to constantly start disagreements with him, and hijack useful threads.
[/quote]

I'm actually entertaining the thought I'm wrong. That's why I want debates, if I'm wrong I want to be convinced I'm wrong, not by a simple you're wrong, etc. I'm not a blind bat, don't wanna be one. If I think I know it all I wouldn't be bothering talking to Dan and all of you. I'd stop searching.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368588691' post='7037884']
[quote name='AbbVT24' timestamp='1368583768' post='7037224']
I've never read TGM, so I don't know all the terminology and concepts. I have always thought it would be an interesting read, though (right up my alley, since I got my degree in engineering mechanics). The problem here is that I didn't read the OPs first post and think, "I sure hope somebody comes in here and relentlessly argues with iteach about a semi-related TGM topic." I don't know him, and I've never even talked to him. What I do know is that the guy spends a lot of time in here sharing his advice, free of charge. Surely, he has spent years working hard to acquire the knowledge and experience that allows him to give that advice. I don't understand why people feel the need to constantly start disagreements with him, and hijack useful threads.
[/quote]

I'm actually entertaining the thought I'm wrong. That's why I want debates, if I'm wrong I want to be convinced I'm wrong, not by a simple you're wrong, etc. I'm not a blind bat, don't wanna be one. If I think I know it all I wouldn't be bothering talking to Dan and all of you. I'd stop searching.
[/quote]
That's the thing though. Me Jim and Dan have all posted info. It's not like Dan said "your wrong" and left it at that. There are pages and pages of explanations. Why a big pa3 angle makes for more of an arc has been fully explained more than three times and still no dice. Not that you have to agree but it's hard to ignore statements that are polar opposite of correct. Hence the reason you keep getting replys that consist of "you are confused" followed by another explanation. Sometimes it's better to just trust the expert and then try to figure out why they are right instead of trying to figure out why they are wrong.

[Sean2]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368047677' post='6994544']
No. It applies to virtually every good golfer to varying degrees. Handle gets higher (more upright plane) as clubs get longer. This shallows AOA and makes every angle less sharp.
[/quote]

Light bulb just went off. :-)

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368582394' post='7037054']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1368581149' post='7036854']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1368577412' post='7036280']
No. You're wrong. What you said is not correct. If you rotate the left arm with an uncocked wrist, no pa3 angle, it does nothing to path as there is no travel with forearm rotation. Zeroing out pa3 can have forearm rotation, face will close, but path isnt affected by the forearm rotation. With a larger PA3 angle the path is a larger arc for a given amount of left arm rotation. Not straighter. With zero pa3 angle there is no travel and therefore no arc. The club head travel is around a fixed point is an arc. The club head travel is exactly why the larger PA3 the steeper and more of an arc there is. Again you're very confused. You keep stating things as if they are fact, when they are 180* from correct. If you just asked questions it'd be very different, but you argue and state things like they are fact when you really don't have a clue.
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Ok ok ok...to some people repetitive you're wrong/confused/etc wont do it...

My question was, how about for those with still with #3 angle left and hence there's clubhead travel left (which is almost all tour pros except Moe Norman and the likes...), why would one not want a bigger #3 angle (as opposed to going towards zeroing it out)?
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You want some but a big PA3 is hard to get the hang of. As you can see in your swing. If you roll with wrist c0ck you steepen the shaft, tip out and wipe across it. Which is exactly what you do. It also makes you incredibly steep. Something more in the middle ground, 90% of the tour, is much more achievable for the average golfer. Also the larger the angle the sharper the angle of approach and the sharper the aoa. This makes distance control extremely difficult and with AOA's affect on the clubhead's path makes controlling the path throughout the bag much more difficult. Also tough to hit driver that way.

So with a larger PA3 it's WAY more difficult to keep the club on plane through impact (not raise the handle) without steepinging the club and wiping across it. Your release of PA2 and 3 has to be perfectly sequenced to get the club head out to the ball. Most will clank the ball way off the toe or if the roll 3 faster than releasing 2 (what you do) they will hit heel cuts and shanks. A smaller PA3 angle makes it easier to keep the club on plane. Makes the path more neutral and easier to get the path zeroed out.

Turning your shoulders more vertical raises the handle which then decreases PA3. All these parts fit together. Again you are confused. I've explained this many times over and you may be hearing me but you arent listening. Keep in mind I'm doing this for free after teaching an 11 hour day outside plus coming home to online lessons. It's not my job to spoon feed you information for free because you don't understand. If you want to learn come pay and take a lesson. I've said more than I need to say and if you still can't get it oh well
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Appreciate all the explanations and your time Dan. really do. I actually like lessons, problem is time. I have a day job. You guys are luck to have full time for golf.

In the last swing you saw of me, I know I get steep from P4. I think the key is how to do the layoff, which is difficult.

I think if we can layoff (not steepen the shaft) in transition and get down to elbow plane by P5.5ish with L wrist c0ck, R elbow bend, R wrist bend and pitch elbow still intact, the clubhead AoA is shallower as you can get.

With a more vertical shoulder turn (not saying completely vertical, but more vertical than level), that path becomes straighter.

Problem is the high hands you mentioned...I think this can be solved by simply getting the shaft more level across your L hand. And if I grip the club parallel to my knuckles and succeed to maintain that parallel-ness they impact, even if my L wrist fully uncocks my knuckles are still around 140-150degrees angled with my L forearm. That's still quite substantial #3 angle left for me.

I know this is somewhat of an unusual swing, but I enjoy exploring it.

I think key to this is the 2nd and 3rd paragraph above. How to achieve that. How do you think we can achieve that?

[InaSilentWay]

This has been a very enlightening thread, which turns my thinking about angles upside down. I always assumed that more pa3 meant more shallow, and lower hands meant more shallow. Thus I was led to believe that the absolute worst impact position was a zeroed out pa3 with higher hands.

I don't know what the obession is with imitating caricatures of Hogan's swing pattern, something I had been guilty of.

[kwagga]

A little more on PA3

[media=]http://youtu.be/Fw4Vi0tqOxo[/media]

[eightiron]

you have very little 3 in either swing and disrupt it with a wipe across it on the lower plane