Greatest male player ever

[bscinstnct]

Jack would be as long as

20 other guys on tour if he played now

But per Trevino and Watson

Relative to TW

Jack did not have a great short game

[turtleback]

[quote name='bwrichmond' timestamp='1378728641' post='7818695']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1378603811' post='7813699']
So Tiger has 14 wins now without a major.

26 Modern era players(1st tour win 1960-present) with more than 14 wins or more and no major = 0.
Bruce Crampton(4 2nds to Jack in majors) and Kenny Perry(2 play-off losses in majors) have 14 wins and no majors.

9 classic era players have more wins and no majors with Harry Cooper 31 and MacDonald Smith 24 leading the way.
Looks like it was harder in the classic era to win a major to me.

[b]I conclude that Tiger's 14 wins and no majors are a result of his wins on "courses for horses" and to me if he is going to have a chance to catch Jack at 18 he is going to need to change his schedule. He should try winning at Riviera and other courses that have given him some difficulty in the past.[/b]
[/quote]

Based on your witchcraft Jack-biased deductive reasoning?

New rule: You're not allowed to post back-to-back. Stop trolling and bringing this thread back.
[/quote]

He is like the crazy guy who sits in the corner mumbling to himself.

[tstephen]

Jack would easily be the longest on tour today. The length of his swing, his strength, and his purest ball striking.

Turtleback and bscinstinct - do you 2 stooges even have 10 years of golf knowledge?

[bscinstnct]

Tstepjen, the top ss is 120, maybe 122 club head speed with a driver.

In Jacks day, he was the only one who had that speed and the rest of the game. (Though per Trevino and Watson, not the best short game)

Today, he would be one of 20 guys around that ss. He would not have the same ability to fly by. Now, when TW came up, he was the longest and he lost that advantage and still won because of his short game

But given Jacks lack of wedge game.

Per Watson and Trevino.

Tiger is the best.

[tstephen]

Without Watson and Trevino, Jack has 26 majors and Tiger + Hagen = 1 short.

Watson and Trevino would have taken more than a few majors from Tiger.

Watson had 1 hand more on a major in the last 4 years than Tiger and he is 64.

Has anyone ever said Tiger makes a good initial move from the top of his swing?

[turtleback]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1378857559' post='7828963']
Jack would easily be the longest on tour today. The length of his swing, his strength, and his purest ball striking.

Turtleback and bscinstinct - do you 2 stooges even have 10 years of golf knowledge?
[/quote]

LOL. I've been following pro golf since the early 60s, as a big Jack fan, and I have read extensively about the history of the game before that. Unlike you I understand that pro golf existed prior to 1962.

Now go back to mumbling to yourself in the corner.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='turtleback' timestamp='1378873978' post='7830537']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1378857559' post='7828963']
Jack would easily be the longest on tour today. The length of his swing, his strength, and his purest ball striking.

Turtleback and bscinstinct - do you 2 stooges even have 10 years of golf knowledge?
[/quote]

LOL. I've been following pro golf since the early 60s, as a big Jack fan, and I have read extensively about the history of the game before that. Unlike you I understand that pro golf existed prior to 1962.

Now go back to mumbling to yourself in the corner.
[/quote]

Please stop replying to this nonsense. It's all he wants and as long as people keep doing it he'll continue posting drivel.

[tstephen]

I have been influenced by guys that have more years in golf and have played with more top tour players than me or who have even worked on the games of top tour players.

I used to think that Tiger was going to be by far the greatest and the best thing ever for golf. I was wrong and did not come to this conclusion alone but by several super knowledgeable and very respected golf pros.

Brock and turtleback say they both were fans of Jack and go well back into the 60's. I just don't buy the fact that they were ever Jack fans. I was a big Tiger fan. When Padraig won his majors it was because Tiger was not around and many fans of Tiger thought those majors to be very weak and all but meaningless. Does it not reason then that all of Tiger's majors are weak??

Take away Bay Hill, Muirfield, Firestone, and Congressional Tiger would be lucky to catch Snead.

[turtleback]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1378908324' post='7831743']
I have been influenced by guys that have more years in golf and have played with more top tour players than me or who have even worked on the games of top tour players.

I used to think that Tiger was going to be by far the greatest and the best thing ever for golf. I was wrong and did not come to this conclusion alone but by several super knowledgeable and very respected golf pros.

Brock and turtleback say they both were fans of Jack and go well back into the 60's. I just don't buy the fact that they were ever Jack fans. I was a big Tiger fan. When Padraig won his majors it was because Tiger was not around and many fans of Tiger thought those majors to be very weak and all but meaningless. Does it not reason then that all of Tiger's majors are weak??

Take away Bay Hill, Muirfield, Firestone, and Congressional Tiger would be lucky to catch Snead.
[/quote]

LOL. Take away Greensboro and Tiger would already be ahead of Snead. Take away Snead's team wins and Tiger would already be ahead of him.

But thank you for calling me a liar about being a Jack fan.

[Guia]

This is what I have learned from recent post: if, if, if, if, if, if. Ridiculous assumptions.

[Brock Savage]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1379167368' post='7849605']
[quote name='turtleback' timestamp='1379048712' post='7842613']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1378908324' post='7831743']
I have been influenced by guys that have more years in golf and have played with more top tour players than me or who have even worked on the games of top tour players.

I used to think that Tiger was going to be by far the greatest and the best thing ever for golf. I was wrong and did not come to this conclusion alone but by several super knowledgeable and very respected golf pros.

Brock and turtleback say they both were fans of Jack and go well back into the 60's. I just don't buy the fact that they were ever Jack fans. I was a big Tiger fan. When Padraig won his majors it was because Tiger was not around and many fans of Tiger thought those majors to be very weak and all but meaningless. Does it not reason then that all of Tiger's majors are weak??

Take away Bay Hill, Muirfield, Firestone, and Congressional Tiger would be lucky to catch Snead.
[/quote]

LOL. Take away Greensboro and Tiger would already be ahead of Snead. Take away Snead's team wins and Tiger would already be ahead of him.

But thank you for calling me a liar about being a Jack fan.
[/quote]

Like the liar and cheat you worship. Hopefully, Sergio says "wow, is that 4 times now this year? - most of us would not get away with cheating that much in a career" on the 1st tee today with Tiger. It should be fun.
[/quote]

You have gone WAY over the line. Turtleback has done nothing to be compared to a liar, real or imagined. Apologize, or you will be the first person I've ever reported on a MB.

[Hawkeye77]

Actually, your bud TB went overboard and mischaracterized the doubt expressed as being called a liar.

Let's not take something out of context twice, just to put on the internet brass knuckles.

Way too much hyperbole in this thread, which is why it ran its course a long time ago.

[Brock Savage]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1379282595' post='7856223']
Actually, your bud TB went overboard and mischaracterized the doubt expressed as being called a liar.
[/quote]

That would not have been a ridiculous opinion before tstephen doubled down, but it is now. I don't know how much more confirmation you can get than tstephen saying himself that TB's interpretation was correct..

[tstephen]

Brock - I merely said that I did not think either of you were big Jack fans. I did not call anyone a liar and I am entitled to my opinion. I have sited several times how Tiger's career through the 2008 US Open was so incredible that if someone had written a book describing Tiger's wins and number of miraculous shots and using our time machine print it back in the early 90's it would have been put in the fantasy section of the book store. I have not once seen a post from you or Turtleback saying anything incredible about Jack. How am I to believe you are both true Jack fans? And if not, it is easy to see why you're so biased towards Tiger. If you can show me a post to prove me wrong I will apologize, but like Hawkeye77 said, you are taking what I said out of context.

Thanks Hawkeye77 and let's not forget that he argued and proved me wrong about Jack's HS football.

[Hawkeye77]

Oh yeah, Jack still greatest golf champion, Hogan now second ahead of Tiger in my book, after watching this year's continued inability to master one of the two most important clubs in the bag.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1379290208' post='7856829']
Oh yeah, Jack still greatest golf champion, Hogan now second ahead of Tiger in my book, after watching this year's continued inability to master one of the two most important clubs in the bag.
[/quote]

Flip flop?

What will you say when TW wins

2 majors next year?

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1379290742' post='7856877']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1379290208' post='7856829']
Oh yeah, Jack still greatest golf champion, Hogan now second ahead of Tiger in my book, after watching this year's continued inability to master one of the two most important clubs in the bag.
[/quote]

Flip flop?

What will you say when TW wins

2 majors next year?
[/quote]

Am I required to maintain the same opinion forever regardless of Tiger's or anyone else's future performance?

IF he does, I will be shocked, but that doesn't mean I'll be disappointed.

[tstephen]

The world is waiting to see what happens when Tiger has the final round lead again in a major. Last time, it was his first loss when leading and he did not have 1/100th the pressure he will next time. I think he will need a big lead going into the final round. Is there anyone else in golf with more than 4 majors who did not come from behind at least once? I will have to research that question.

Peter Thomson is the only other player with 5 British Opens.

Funny how that is always a great NFL stat for QBs - come for behind 4th quarter wins.

[lsugolf1105]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1379291412' post='7856931']
The world is waiting to see what happens when Tiger has the final round lead again in a major. Last time, it was his first loss when leading and he did not have 1/100th the pressure he will next time. I think he will need a big lead going into the final round. Is there anyone else in golf with more than 4 majors who did not come from behind at least once? I will have to research that question.

Peter Thomson is the only other player with 5 British Opens.

Funny how that is always a great NFL stat for QBs - come for behind wins.
[/quote]

Tiger is one if the best come from behind players of all time.

[tstephen]

Not in majors. 6 of 18 WGC wins from behind. Jack 8 of 18 in majors.
Tiger has 1 in the last 2 years and maybe 2 since the 2008 US Open.
He has a total of approximately 20 of his 79 and I wonder how many with more than a 2 shot deficit?
To sum it up, if he's not leading at Bay Hill, Firestone, Muirfield Village, Torrey, or Congressional he won't be winning that week going into his future endeavors.
He can prove me wrong tomorrow but won't.

[lsugolf1105]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1379295532' post='7857295']
Not in majors. 6 of 18 WGC wins from behind. Jack 8 of 18 in majors.
Tiger has 1 in the last 2 years and maybe 2 since the 2008 US Open.
He has a total of approximately 20 of his 79 and I wonder how many with more than a 2 shot deficit?
To sum it up, if he's not leading at Bay Hill, Firestone, Muirfield Village, Torrey, or Congressional he won't be winning that week going into his future endeavors.
He can prove me wrong tomorrow but won't.
[/quote]

So come from behind is only applicable if you come from behind when down with 18 holes to go? What about with 17 to go?

[tstephen]

A guy with a 2 shot lead triples the first hole but then wins. No, I would not call that a come from behind victory. Simple comparison to football, 4 quarters, 4 rounds, what is the part you are confused about?
Tiger has been the best with a lead, but recently he has struggled to hold on for the win. I don't think he will win another major without at least a 3 shot 54 hole lead.

[lsugolf1105]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1379372555' post='7862157']
A guy with a 2 shot lead triples the first hole but then wins. No, I would not call that a come from behind victory. Simple comparison to football, 4 quarters, 4 rounds, what is the part you are confused about?
Tiger has been the best with a lead, but recently he has struggled to hold on for the win. I don't think he will win another major without at least a 3 shot 54 hole lead.
[/quote]

I just don't understand what the big deal is. So he's won when down with 19 holes and 17 holes to go but not 18. Are you implying it is a knock on him? And would the epic us amateur comeback wins mean anything?

[tstephen]

You are right about 2 of his 3 US ams. Some sports and golf fans say a win is a win. There is just something more special and memorable about someone who puts on a charge to win. Tiger has a few runaway major wins, but I think it would have added to his legend had he come from behind in exciting fashion. It's really is no different than all the miraculous shots he's made over the years. He may have still won as much without those shots but if you take away his 20 greatest shots, you take away a big chunk of his incredible career.

[nospleen]

Tiger is not what he used to be, not even close. I think he has lost the self belief he had before. This is why he seems to struggle most when the pressure builds.

He has a wrecked body, on a 4th swing, struggles with the draw, can't make 4 or 5 footers, can't chip like he used to, and can't hit his driver consistently. Despite all of that, he is still winning. That is why I think he is the best ever.

It's a shame everything went down like it did. I believe the mental side will keep him from breaking Jack's record. But, he did it to himself.

[lsugolf1105]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1379380454' post='7862831']
You are right about 2 of his 3 US ams. Some sports and golf fans say a win is a win. There is just something more special and memorable about someone who puts on a charge to win. Tiger has a few runaway major wins, but I think it would have added to his legend had he come from behind in exciting fashion. It's really is no different than all the miraculous shots he's made over the years. He may have still won as much without those shots but if you take away his 20 greatest shots, you take away a big chunk of his incredible career.
[/quote]

I would say that the 2000 PGA and 2008 US Open were both great come from behind wins.

[tstephen]

Good try. 2008 US Open Tiger and Westwood had the highest final rounds for the top 8 spots. Tiger did double #1 3 times that week and battled back very well. 2000 PGA was just a good shoot out and it looked like Tiger was going to win on the 72nd hole.

[tstephen]

[quote name='nospleen' timestamp='1379382975' post='7863095']
Tiger is not what he used to be, not even close. I think he has lost the self belief he had before. This is why he seems to struggle most when the pressure builds.

He has a wrecked body, on a 4th swing, struggles with the draw, can't make 4 or 5 footers, can't chip like he used to, and can't hit his driver consistently. Despite all of that, he is still winning. That is why I think he is the best ever.

It's a shame everything went down like it did. I believe the mental side will keep him from breaking Jack's record. But, he did it to himself.
[/quote]

He still needs at least 1 more major. Only Seve stopped winning majors at an earlier age. I laugh when guys say players from this era would clean up on players from the 60's thru 80's. Seve and Norman would have both won more majors if they had been born in 1980.

[nospleen]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1379386419' post='7863477']
[quote name='nospleen' timestamp='1379382975' post='7863095']
Tiger is not what he used to be, not even close. I think he has lost the self belief he had before. This is why he seems to struggle most when the pressure builds.

He has a wrecked body, on a 4th swing, struggles with the draw, can't make 4 or 5 footers, can't chip like he used to, and can't hit his driver consistently. Despite all of that, he is still winning. That is why I think he is the best ever.

It's a shame everything went down like it did. I believe the mental side will keep him from breaking Jack's record. But, he did it to himself.
[/quote]

He still needs at least 1 more major. Only Seve stopped winning majors at an earlier age. I laugh when guys say players from this era would clean up on players from the 60's thru 80's. Seve and Norman would have both won more majors if they been born in 1980.
[/quote]

I think his WGC wins don't get enough credibility though. I'd love to see him get a few more majors, but his resume is pretty darn stout already.

[tstephen]

It most definitely is stout and WCG events are over-rated if anything. The tour found a way to make a match play event work as long as it is played in the US and at the time the tour is playing in the southwest. There has always been the Doral Open but now with a limited field where they all make the cut and great money. Firestone CC has always had a tournament and again limited with great money which may lower the competitiveness of players. Some guys are order of merit from Asia and Japan tours and are just checking out the golf in the US for the first time. And they found a way to make most of the top US players play maybe 1 other event not called the British Open outside North America.

Anti-Jack crowd is always saying Jack played against limited fields. NO, TIGER PLAYS AGAINST LIMITED FIELDS! As is the final 2 Fed-ex Cup tournaments.