If Jack Nicklaus is the best player ever why not teach his putting technique ?

[pinhigh27]

[size=4]Lol yes, Tiger could have even hit those putts left handed, and they would have still gone in he wanted[/size][size=4] to win so badly. Are you insane? Do you read the words you write? [/size]

[pinhigh27]

I love the reference to 2001 too. Tiger is literally having the best golf season of his career so far, and yet "he doesn't have it " No. Its called he had a coach that literally knew nothing about golf and producing championship golfers, so he struggled(for him, which would still be amazing for others). He changed to foley, who actually has some ability and isnt ignorant, and oh look, Tiger wins 4 tournaments. He is terrible though, never has been the same since his struggles and is never gonna win another major. Dude give it up.

[tgss]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368739691' post='7049590']
I love the reference to 2001 too. Tiger is literally having the best golf season of his career so far, and yet "he doesn't have it " No. Its called he had a coach that literally knew nothing about golf and producing championship golfers, so he struggled(for him, which would still be amazing for others). He changed to foley, who actually has some ability and isnt ignorant, and oh look, Tiger wins 4 tournaments. He is terrible though, never has been the same since his struggles and is never gonna win another major. Dude give it up.
[/quote]

Omg ...We got off topic and and the thread is not about name calling or whether or not Tiger is better then Jack or anyone else. The thread is about
Jack Nicklaus's putting stroke and why it is seldom taught. Heck even touring pros out of frustration abandon the conventional stroke and have gone belly/long/claw/saw/reverse/forearm putting so why not try a style that won 18 Majors ?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368739691' post='7049590']
I love the reference to 2001 too. Tiger is literally having the best golf season of his career so far, and yet "he doesn't have it " No. Its called he had a coach that literally knew nothing about golf and producing championship golfers, so he struggled(for him, which would still be amazing for others). He changed to foley, who actually has some ability and isnt ignorant, and oh look, Tiger wins 4 tournaments. He is terrible though, never has been the same since his struggles and is never gonna win another major. Dude give it up.
[/quote]
My gosh. What are you ranting about? When did I say tiger was terrible and wouldn't win another major? I think his swing is better than ever. This is a discussion about putting, which is why he didn't win the Masters. What exactly would you like me to give up?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='The Golf Swing Shirt' timestamp='1368740515' post='7049660']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368739691' post='7049590']
I love the reference to 2001 too. Tiger is literally having the best golf season of his career so far, and yet "he doesn't have it " No. Its called he had a coach that literally knew nothing about golf and producing championship golfers, so he struggled(for him, which would still be amazing for others). He changed to foley, who actually has some ability and isnt ignorant, and oh look, Tiger wins 4 tournaments. He is terrible though, never has been the same since his struggles and is never gonna win another major. Dude give it up.
[/quote]

Omg ...We got off topic and and the thread is not about name calling or whether or not Tiger is better then Jack or anyone else. The thread is about
Jack Nicklaus's putting stroke and why it is seldom taught. Heck even touring pros out of frustration abandon the conventional stroke and have gone belly/long/claw/saw/reverse/forearm putting so why not try a style that won 18 Majors ?
[/quote] I think the best thing to learn from Jack's stroke is that he did what worked for him. That is what we should copy. If that is a stroke like his, great. If it is what Monte described, ouch, but that's great too. I probably wont be partnering up with you though

[SheriffBooth]

I'd be interested to learn more about the shift in conventional wisdom from the 50's through the 80's when every player had their own unique putting stroke, to the modern era where everyone is taught arms and shoulders and eliminate the small muscles. Have any of our resident teaching pros been doing it long enough to discuss?

Obviously the conventional wisdom among a vast majority of putting teachers currently seems to be that arms and shoulders is inherently more repeatable, especially under pressure.

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='Golf Monkey' timestamp='1368715258' post='7046770']The current crop of pampered automatons wouldn't have cut it in The Golden Age.
[/quote]

Or just maybe those older-time players would have been just as pampered if they played now?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='JPeacockGolf' timestamp='1368740681' post='7049672']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1368739691' post='7049590']
I love the reference to 2001 too. Tiger is literally having the best golf season of his career so far, and yet "he doesn't have it " No. Its called he had a coach that literally knew nothing about golf and producing championship golfers, so he struggled(for him, which would still be amazing for others). He changed to foley, who actually has some ability and isnt ignorant, and oh look, Tiger wins 4 tournaments. He is terrible though, never has been the same since his struggles and is never gonna win another major. Dude give it up.
[/quote]
My gosh. What are you ranting about? When did I say tiger was terrible and wouldn't win another major? I think his swing is better than ever. This is a discussion about putting, which is why he didn't win the Masters. What exactly would you like me to give up?
[/quote]

Im "ranting" about you trying to claim that will is greater than physics. Just like someone with a 100 mph SS can will a ball to go 320 naturally, it just isnt gonna happen. Tiger didn't win the masters because of putting? I forgot he had a 4 shot swing for hitting the flag......and WAS STILL IN CONTENTION

[tgss]

[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1368740954' post='7049698']
I'd be interested to learn more about the shift in conventional wisdom from the 50's through the 80's when every player had their own unique putting stroke, to the modern era where everyone is taught arms and shoulders and eliminate the small muscles. Have any of our resident teaching pros been doing it long enough to discuss?

Obviously the conventional wisdom among a vast majority of putting teachers currently seems to be that arms and shoulders is inherently more repeatable, especially under pressure.
[/quote]

Howdy Sheriff !
Yes this topic intrigues me as well where so many people and teachers started teaching the model putting stroke ala Dave Pelzs "Perfy Putter" , where everything is linear and very robotic. I see it at PGA events where 95% of pros have a very similar putting set up and stroke and looking at them you swear they will make every putt they look at. Then voila they go out and push,yank,leave short and blow by many putts just like you and I. Yes they are better putters on paper statistically but I wonder if its their ability to read greens and judge speed NOT necessarily better mechanics.
So the bottom line is are we better putters in the year 2013 then we were in 1970 with the advent of the "model" putting stroke ?

[Cwing]

I'd guess quality of course care equipment and knowledge how to prep and maintain a course. Longer/slower greens work well with the older type strokes.

[tgss]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1368752614' post='7050620']
I'd guess quality of course care equipment and knowledge how to prep and maintain a course. Longer/slower greens work well with the older type strokes.
[/quote]
Yes I know that I am old but I can't believe that putting overall has gotten that much better using modern techniques. If anything since course conditioning
has gotten better and greens faster, "touch and feel " over seemingly static and robotic strokes would probably prevail. Again my humble opinion and since the cup presently looks like a manhole I am partial to my Jack Nicklaus putting stroke.

[Shambles]

[quote name='The Golf Swing Shirt' timestamp='1368751056' post='7050452']
[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1368740954' post='7049698']
I'd be interested to learn more about the shift in conventional wisdom from the 50's through the 80's when every player had their own unique putting stroke, to the modern era where everyone is taught arms and shoulders and eliminate the small muscles. Have any of our resident teaching pros been doing it long enough to discuss?

Obviously the conventional wisdom among a vast majority of putting teachers currently seems to be that arms and shoulders is inherently more repeatable, especially under pressure.
[/quote]

Howdy Sheriff !
Yes this topic intrigues me as well where so many people and teachers started teaching the model putting stroke ala Dave Pelzs "Perfy Putter" , where everything is linear and very robotic. I see it at PGA events where 95% of pros have a very similar putting set up and stroke and looking at them you swear they will make every putt they look at. Then voila they go out and push,yank,leave short and blow by many putts just like you and I. Yes they are better putters on paper statistically but I wonder if its their ability to read greens and judge speed NOT necessarily better mechanics.
So the bottom line is are we better putters in the year 2013 then we were in 1970 with the advent of the "model" putting stroke ?
[/quote]

You got my thinking.

Learning how to putt a straight line and control the strength of the stroke should be enough. The rest is reading. People miss putts because they make a mistake in the stroke or the read or even both. In the course of trying to fix the stroke we sometimes, actually often, add to the steps we take to make the putt. That's how Arnie, Chi Chi, Lee and Jack came up with their techniques. In the end it was still whatever helped them putt a straight line and control the strength of the stroke that they were after The rest is reading.


Shambles

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1368740954' post='7049698']
I'd be interested to learn more about the shift in conventional wisdom from the 50's through the 80's when every player had their own unique putting stroke, to the modern era where everyone is taught arms and shoulders and eliminate the small muscles. Have any of our resident teaching pros been doing it long enough to discuss?

Obviously the conventional wisdom among a vast majority of putting teachers currently seems to be that arms and shoulders is inherently more repeatable, especially under pressure.
[/quote]

Since I teach such as Nicklaus approach those putting guys dont know what they do.
There is no more repeatability with shoulders and arms its actually worse.
There is no pressure unless your mentally weak which is one reason those guys that cant handle things and had to be given a fix aka arms and shoulders.
Game of golf fixing is for those that dont thrive under pressure, which can be learned as any skill.

[TGrube]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368715532' post='7046790']
Mac O'grady teaches the Nicklaus technique. Geoff Mangum teaches several of the key elements of what Jack (and many others of his era) did.
[/quote] Marius Filmaltier also teaches components of jacks putting technique.

[rafal]

Cmon guys, Jack who?

Have you not read the newspapers, Tiger is back!!!

[tgss]

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1368877671' post='7058690']
Cmon guys, Jack who?

Have you not read the newspapers, Tiger is back!!!
[/quote]

Great to see Tiger is playing better yet in this thread we are speaking about Jack Nicklaus's putting stroke and why the modern day stroke has become cookie cutter/robotic .
Cheers,
Ray

[SheriffBooth]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1368857506' post='7058308']
[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1368740954' post='7049698']
I'd be interested to learn more about the shift in conventional wisdom from the 50's through the 80's when every player had their own unique putting stroke, to the modern era where everyone is taught arms and shoulders and eliminate the small muscles. Have any of our resident teaching pros been doing it long enough to discuss?

Obviously the conventional wisdom among a vast majority of putting teachers currently seems to be that arms and shoulders is inherently more repeatable, especially under pressure.
[/quote]

Since I teach such as Nicklaus approach those putting guys dont know what they do.
There is no more repeatability with shoulders and arms its actually worse.
There is no pressure unless your mentally weak which is one reason [b][u]those guys[/u][/b] that cant handle things and had to be given a fix aka arms and shoulders.
Game of golf fixing is for those that dont thrive under pressure, which can be learned as any skill.
[/quote]

To my knowledge, "those guys" are 100% of the current conventional putters on the PGA Tour. Is there a single pro on the PGA, Euro or Web.com tours that putts like Nicklaus? Assuming the answer is there are none, I find it very difficult to believe that the Nicklaus stroke is inherently more repeatable and effective.

[butch33611]

I dont think it makes a tinkers damn which way you do it. I think the brain has a lot to do with putting and not so much on execution. I watched them both play for many years. Like most of us some days they drain everything, Other days they cant hit their a##es with both hands. Take the young kid that won the first turnament this year. I dont recall his name, He was draining putts from everywhere. It seemed like 30 and 40 footers were gimmies. He hasnt come close to repeating that kind of putting this year. How can tiger or anyone else all of a sudden on Friday never miss a putt all day then on saturday nothing goes in. Its the same player on the same course with the same style of putting yet for sure something is different.

Now if someone could figured out what THAT is we would be on to something. Im sure everyone here has had that kind of round where your putting surprises even you. You cant believe your making all these hard putts. Its seems so easy to roll it in on those days like you feel like you cant miss.

Same guy on the same course cant even get it close and he knows he missed it right after it leaves the putter.

Tiger and Jack are no different then anyone one of us when it comes to whatever THAT is on that perticular day or anyone else on the PGA tour. If they have THAT workin on that day they make a move up the leader board.

If a PGA tour player ever figured out how to harness THAT he would smoke Jack and tiger both.

Perfect example, I had THAT working the other day. My playing partner after we were done said, DAMN, everything inside 10 feet was like a gimmie for you today. Im an ok putter but on that day the hole looked like it was huge and everything I hit felt perfectly on line. But of course it left as quickly as it came. The next round on the same course I was back to normal.

If someone ever figures THAT out, Id pay big money for those lessons as would every other golfer in the world.

Just my opinion.

[Cwing]

Sorry, I don't see the "cookie cutters". You have belly putter putting, long putter putting, kucher style putting. you have pop stroke with BS. A few yrs ago you had a guy using the shortest allowable putter, you've got Phil and Vj with their flavor of the day putting strokes. You've got Tigers more upright stroke and many bend over strokes. You've got guys with the elbows in and some with arms hanging down. You've got Uttleys arc stroke, Pelz straight down, straight through stroke and Stocktons handle towards the target stroke. Some are closed, some open.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1369087336' post='7071592']
Sorry, I don't see the "cookie cutters". You have belly putter putting, long putter putting, kucher style putting. you have pop stroke with BS. A few yrs ago you had a guy using the shortest allowable putter, you've got Phil and Vj with their flavor of the day putting strokes. You've got Tigers more upright stroke and many bend over strokes. You've got guys with the elbows in and some with arms hanging down. You've got Uttleys arc stroke, Pelz straight down, straight through stroke and Stocktons handle towards the target stroke. Some are closed, some open.
[/quote]

And let's not forget Left hand low grip, saw grip, pencil grip, split grip, conventional overlap, reverse overlap, left forearm lock grip,......

[tgss]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1369087336' post='7071592']
Sorry, I don't see the "cookie cutters". You have belly putter putting, long putter putting, kucher style putting. you have pop stroke with BS. A few yrs ago you had a guy using the shortest allowable putter, you've got Phil and Vj with their flavor of the day putting strokes. You've got Tigers more upright stroke and many bend over strokes. You've got guys with the elbows in and some with arms hanging down. You've got Uttleys arc stroke, Pelz straight down, straight through stroke and Stocktons handle towards the target stroke. Some are closed, some open.
[/quote]
True that there are slight variations of the modern putting but from 20 feet away most of the guys and gals on tour look similar insofar as they are rocking their shoulders with a square set up. Plus if you went to most PGA instructors this is probably the style that they would teach with their own personal flavor added. Jack on the other hand would stand out on most putting greens and I would love to know from him what style would he teach his grandkids ! LOL

[tgss]

[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1369075155' post='7070300']
[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1368857506' post='7058308']
[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1368740954' post='7049698']
I'd be interested to learn more about the shift in conventional wisdom from the 50's through the 80's when every player had their own unique putting stroke, to the modern era where everyone is taught arms and shoulders and eliminate the small muscles. Have any of our resident teaching pros been doing it long enough to discuss?

Obviously the conventional wisdom among a vast majority of putting teachers currently seems to be that arms and shoulders is inherently more repeatable, especially under pressure.
[/quote]

Since I teach such as Nicklaus approach those putting guys dont know what they do.
There is no more repeatability with shoulders and arms its actually worse.
There is no pressure unless your mentally weak which is one reason [b][u]those guys[/u][/b] that cant handle things and had to be given a fix aka arms and shoulders.
Game of golf fixing is for those that dont thrive under pressure, which can be learned as any skill.
[/quote]

To my knowledge, "those guys" are 100% of the current conventional putters on the PGA Tour. Is there a single pro on the PGA, Euro or Web.com tours that putts like Nicklaus? Assuming the answer is there are none, I find it very difficult to believe that the Nicklaus stroke is inherently more repeatable and effective.
[/quote]

Hmm. Perhaps Jack would beg to differ with 18 major under his belt and over 100 professional and amateur wins. LOL
Cheers
Ray

[craniac24]

I used to putt with an open stance, then somewhere along the line a pro told me to square up, and that's how I've putted ever since. Sometimes adequately, sometimes very well, and sometimes horribly.

On another note, I'll put my .02 in on the Nicklaus era vs. the Tiger era. Personally, I think the field as a whole might be a little bit stronger today. But the top echelon of players back then was far superior. Give me Jack, Trevino, Palmer, Player, Watson, Floyd, Seve and Hale Irwin. You can have any 8 players you want from today's era, and I'd put my life on the line on a match with those guys on my team.

[Stuch]

I gave the open stance a shot today out on the course and I really liked it. It was a lot easier for me to see the line I wanted and because it felt like I was just rolling the ball with my right hand my speed was a lot better. I made 3 or 4 20+ footers. I thought it was great at long and medium distances but I struggled with it on close putts.

[Guia]

I believe that Snedeker uses a Pop stroke. The Pop stroke of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s died because of
changes in Agronomy. The greens got smoother and faster. Use a Pop stroke today and a good chance that
you will be off the green.

The theory of the swing changes from generation to generations because of who is hot, agronomy, and equip-ment advancement. Nicklaus is no longer emulated because those from his generation no longer play
in the pro's. New players learn from those that are closest to their peer group.

Unfortunately, in the past 25 years technic has over shadowed individuality in the swing. The tour is
full of technicians but only a few that know how to score.

Before anyone brings up Bubba let me say that he is an anomaly, as are a few others. Love to watch himbend the ball.

[TGrube]

[quote name='Stuch' timestamp='1369116456' post='7074258']
I gave the open stance a shot today out on the course and I really liked it. It was a lot easier for me to see the line I wanted and because it felt like I was just rolling the ball with my right hand my speed was a lot better. I made 3 or 4 20+ footers. I thought it was great at long and medium distances but I struggled with it on close putts.
[/quote]
I always felt more comfortable with a open stance like you I did an still do very well on long puts. I had to abandon it cause it screws up my angles on closer putts. Just too many conflicting lines for me. Once I convinced myself to square up my short putt woes diminished dramatically..

[Lodestone]

[quote name='TGrube' timestamp='1369133358' post='7074618']
[quote name='Stuch' timestamp='1369116456' post='7074258']
I gave the open stance a shot today out on the course and I really liked it. It was a lot easier for me to see the line I wanted and because it felt like I was just rolling the ball with my right hand my speed was a lot better. I made 3 or 4 20+ footers. I thought it was great at long and medium distances but I struggled with it on close putts.
[/quote]
I always felt more comfortable with a open stance like you I did an still do very well on long puts. I had to abandon it cause it screws up my angles on closer putts. Just too many conflicting lines for me. Once I convinced myself to square up my short putt woes diminished dramatically..
[/quote]

Similar experiences here. I think on shorter putts it may have made me too focused on target, rather than stroke, and I had a tendency to peek-a-boo the putt. But I had a great view of it as it missed the hole.

[Lodestone]

Fuzzy was on Golf Channel over the winter and he broke all of the rules of the modern robot putting stroke. He didn't putt too badly.

[firstbatch]

[quote name='Lodestone' timestamp='1369133707' post='7074630']
Fuzzy was on Golf Channel over the winter and he broke all of the rules of the modern robot putting stroke. He didn't putt too badly.
[/quote]
Indeed....and he went on to explain he had a gift of great periphial vision which allowed him to see the line a long way out from address

[tgss]

[quote name='Stuch' timestamp='1369116456' post='7074258']
I gave the open stance a shot today out on the course and I really liked it. It was a lot easier for me to see the line I wanted and because it felt like I was just rolling the ball with my right hand my speed was a lot better. I made 3 or 4 20+ footers. I thought it was great at long and medium distances but I struggled with it on close putts.
[/quote]

Awesome and I like the fact that you gave it a good try...plus making 3-4 20 footers is real fun !